Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Another thing not often seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black

Expand Messages
  • Lynne Tolton
    Hello, Thank you for the recent discussion of garb for religious on the various garb lists. Now, I m going to ask my annoying question again. Has anyone
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
      Hello,

      Thank you for the recent discussion of garb for religious on the various
      garb lists.

      Now, I'm going to ask my annoying question again.

      Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
      more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout? We have lots of
      wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
      dressed in black. Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?

      Did they have the same or a different cut? Did they use wonderful fabrics
      just in dark colors? Where we find written records were there rules for
      matrons and widows etc?

      I DO have several Italian gowns, even an embroidered pink linen gown I
      worked pretty hard on. But . . . . .I still think it would be fun to come
      sweeping down the road at Pennsic with 4 or 5 truly secure MATRONS. I
      believe the crowds would part.

      Still wondering,

      Lady Arelinda Poincelin


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jacki/erica
      You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour other than black? Elspeth Bouchannane Oertha West
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
        You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour
        other than black?

        Elspeth Bouchannane
        Oertha West
        >
        > snippage
        > Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
        > more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout? We have lots of
        > wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
        > dressed in black. Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?
        >
        > Did they have the same or a different cut? Did they use wonderful fabrics
        > just in dark colors? Where we find written records were there rules for
        > matrons and widows etc?
      • Lynne Tolton
        So. .. how do we find out. . .? I think I had read somewhere that the d Este girls had a fairly active coorespondance that included their mothers. I asked
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
          So. .. how do we find out. . .? I think I had read somewhere that the
          d'Este girls had a fairly active coorespondance that included their mothers.

          I asked this question once and an Italian garb laurel type's answer was,
          "Why should we?" My thought was that otherwise we look a lot like baloons
          in the Thanksgiving Day parade. What I said was, "She may be beautiful but
          we control the money." meaning the gorgeous 6 foot tall blond in full
          Venitian who had opened the session for questions.

          I just think it would be easier to "be" a persona of a wealthy matron if I
          knew how to dress like one.

          More later,

          Arelinda Poincelin
          camping with Flamingo Bluff N03



          On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Jacki/erica <edenwild@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour
          > other than black?
          >
          > Elspeth Bouchannane
          > Oertha West
          > >
          > > snippage
          >
          > > Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
          > > more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout? We have lots of
          > > wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
          > > dressed in black. Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?
          > >
          > > Did they have the same or a different cut? Did they use wonderful fabrics
          > > just in dark colors? Where we find written records were there rules for
          > > matrons and widows etc?
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Raphaella DiContini
          Have you seen The Clothing of the Renaissance World: Europe, Asia, Africa, The Americas; Cesare Vecellio s Habiti Antichi et Moderni with translations by
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
            Have you seen The Clothing of the Renaissance World: Europe, Asia, Africa, The Americas; Cesare Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni with translations by Margaret F. Rosenthal? It's pretty thick and the real jem of this books isn't even the fantastic woodcuts (some of which have been available before in a dover edition) it's the  translation of Vecellio's extremely detailed description of each outfit, who would have worn it and for what occation. If you get a chance I highly recommend checking it out. Here's a link to the listing in my librarything if you'd like more information on the book: http://www.librarything.com/work/7725129/book/55980126
             
            I can't remember if there's antyhing focused on Matrons in Moda a Firenze, but I will check when I get home as it's another great resources, although being Florentine instead of Venetian it is a little outside of my personal focus.  
             
            Here are some of the portraits that first sprang to mind when I thought of Italian matrons in the Renaissance:
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/newgirolamoforni.jpg
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/MoroniOldWomanBlack.jpg
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/SoranzoFam2.JPG
             
            Is that what you had in mind? It looks like, from the first family portrait that the matron appears to be wearing the same style and color gown as one of the younger women with a black loose gown on top of it.
             
            In joyous service,
            Raffaella di Contino
            Courtier to Their Excellencies Aquaterra, An Tir

            From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
            To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 6:43 AM
            Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black

            You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour
            other than black?

            Elspeth Bouchannane
            Oertha West
            >
            > snippage
            > Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
            > more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout?  We have lots of
            > wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
            > dressed in black.  Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?
            >
            > Did they have the same or a different cut?  Did they use wonderful fabrics
            > just in dark colors?  Where we find written records were there rules for
            > matrons and widows etc?




            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Raphaella DiContini
            It just occurred to me that another great place to look would be in Dress of the Venetians, as it s about 50 years before my time, but it s a great study of
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
              It just occurred to me that another great place to look would be in Dress of the Venetians, as it's about 50 years before my time, but it's a great study of Venetian fashions and their social and political meanings.  I will look futher when I get home tonigh and have access to my personal library.  
              Here's an interesting description of the dress and modesty of Noble Widows in Renaissance Venice, perhaps that will shed some light as well: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/newvecellio8.htm
              8. Widows


              With the death of their husbands, widows in Venice embrace the death of all vanity and all bodily ornament. For in addition to wearing black, they cover their hair, fasten a very thick veil over their breast, wear their cappa [a heavy veil of horizontally crimped silk or a silk and wool blend] low on their foreheads, and go through the streets sadly and with lowered heads. As long as they want to remain widows, they wear a train and put on no coloured clothing, until such time as they may want to marry again. At home they wear a cap on their hair, which covers it up. They always wear black, indoors and out. But if they decide to marry again, they may wear some jewelry without being blamed for it, though not of striking appearance, and uncover their hair to some degree, all of which serves to inform others of their intention. This image of dress represents a very modest noblewoman of the Contarini family.
               
              © Ann Rosalind Jones and Margaret F Rosenthal.   
               
              In joyous service,
              Raffaella

              From: Lynne Tolton <ldtolton@...>
              To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 6:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black

              So. .. how do we find out. . .?  I think I had read somewhere that the
              d'Este girls had a fairly active coorespondance that included their mothers.

              I asked this question once and an Italian garb laurel type's answer was,
              "Why should we?"  My thought was that otherwise we look a lot like baloons
              in the Thanksgiving Day parade.  What I said was, "She may be beautiful but
              we control the money." meaning the gorgeous 6 foot tall blond in full
              Venitian who had opened the session for questions.

              I just think it would be easier to "be" a persona of a wealthy matron if I
              knew how to dress like one.

              More later,

              Arelinda Poincelin
              camping with Flamingo Bluff N03



              On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Jacki/erica <edenwild@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour
              > other than black?
              >
              > Elspeth Bouchannane
              > Oertha West
              > >
              > > snippage
              >
              > > Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
              > > more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout? We have lots of
              > > wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
              > > dressed in black. Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?
              > >
              > > Did they have the same or a different cut? Did they use wonderful fabrics
              > > just in dark colors? Where we find written records were there rules for
              > > matrons and widows etc?
              >

              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • otsisto
              Found this site on Italian items. some is 1500s. 2 chopines. http://italianhistory.tumblr.com/ De
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
                Found this site on Italian items. some is 1500s. 2 chopines.
                http://italianhistory.tumblr.com/

                De
              • Lynne Tolton
                SEE They re ALWAYS in the pictures. But we in the SCA just don t do matrons. Now how EXACTLY are you going to know that I m the woman in charge if I dress
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 27, 2011
                  SEE They're ALWAYS in the pictures. But we in the SCA just don't do
                  matrons. Now how EXACTLY are you going to know that I'm the woman in charge
                  if I dress like a teen age girl all the time.

                  Thank you for the links. I will enjoy studying them further. And maybe
                  just maybe, there will be a just right fabric at the merchants at Pennsic.
                  How about a deep red/maroon gown with gorgeous black brocade over dress? Or
                  very deep dark green?

                  Thank you. I'll add these to my Italian Garb notebook tomorrow.

                  We don't need to be widows unless we choose to be. But we can be wealthy
                  mature women when it suits us. And in a bunch we would RULE.

                  More later,

                  Arelinda Poincelin

                  On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Raphaella DiContini
                  <raphaellad@...>wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Have you seen The Clothing of the Renaissance World: Europe, Asia, Africa,
                  > The Americas; Cesare Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni with translations
                  > by Margaret F. Rosenthal? It's pretty thick and the real jem of this books
                  > isn't even the fantastic woodcuts (some of which have been available before
                  > in a dover edition) it's the translation of Vecellio's extremely detailed
                  > description of each outfit, who would have worn it and for what occation. If
                  > you get a chance I highly recommend checking it out. Here's a link to the
                  > listing in my librarything if you'd like more information on the book:
                  > http://www.librarything.com/work/7725129/book/55980126
                  >
                  > I can't remember if there's antyhing focused on Matrons in Moda a Firenze,
                  > but I will check when I get home as it's another great resources,
                  > although being Florentine instead of Venetian it is a little outside of my
                  > personal focus.
                  >
                  > Here are some of the portraits that first sprang to mind when I thought of
                  > Italian matrons in the Renaissance:
                  > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/newgirolamoforni.jpg
                  > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/MoroniOldWomanBlack.jpg
                  > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/SoranzoFam2.JPG
                  >
                  > Is that what you had in mind? It looks like, from the first family portrait
                  > that the matron appears to be wearing the same style and color gown as one
                  > of the younger women with a black loose gown on top of it.
                  >
                  > In joyous service,
                  > Raffaella di Contino
                  > Courtier to Their Excellencies Aquaterra, An Tir
                  >
                  > From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                  > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 6:43 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                  > in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                  >
                  >
                  > You have been in my head - - A further question - did they wear any colour
                  > other than black?
                  >
                  > Elspeth Bouchannane
                  > Oertha West
                  > >
                  > > snippage
                  > > Has anyone anywhere studied the age appropriate garb for Italian matrons
                  > > more than 45 years old and well along to short and stout? We have lots
                  > of
                  > > wonderful pictures of young girls and brides all surrounded with matrons
                  > > dressed in black. Has anyone ever studied the ladies in black?
                  > >
                  > > Did they have the same or a different cut? Did they use wonderful
                  > fabrics
                  > > just in dark colors? Where we find written records were there rules for
                  > > matrons and widows etc?
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jacki/erica
                  The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if you are not said widow - what would you wear? Elspeth Bouchannane Oertha West
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                    The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                    you are not said widow - what would you wear?

                    Elspeth Bouchannane
                    Oertha West
                  • Chris Catalfamo
                    Be sure to READ Vecellio s descriptions and look carefully at the woodcuts.. There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and prostitutes, young
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                      Be sure to READ Vecellio's descriptions and look carefully at the woodcuts..
                      There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and prostitutes,
                      young Venetian noblewomen, middle class matrons, "the shameful poor"
                      (usually formerly rich women with a change of luck." and more. I love Black
                      but the heat aspect is still daunting.

                      _____

                      From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Jacki/erica
                      Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22 AM
                      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen in
                      the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black




                      The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                      you are not said widow - what would you wear?

                      Elspeth Bouchannane
                      Oertha West






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Raphaella DiContini
                      There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been mentioned here don t assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble / patrician
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                        There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been mentioned here don't assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble / patrician class just because she wears black. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for me to scan any of the wood cuts or descriptions, but perhaps I could transcribe some exerpts here tonight. I don't want to cross an moral or legal boundries with copyright. I'm packing for a week away at camp with family, but I will try to remember to go through my books tonight and offer page numbers and quotes that look appropriate.
                         
                        If anyone else has either of these  books at hand please feel free to chime in too. :)
                         
                        In joyous service,
                        Raffaella

                        From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                        To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:22 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black

                        The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                        you are not said widow - what would you wear?

                        Elspeth Bouchannane
                        Oertha West

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lynne Tolton
                        Yup. . . but how or why do the desert people do it? On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Chris Catalfamo
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                          Yup. . . but how or why do the desert people do it?

                          On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Chris Catalfamo <catalfamo1190@...
                          > wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Be sure to READ Vecellio's descriptions and look carefully at the
                          > woodcuts..
                          > There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and prostitutes,
                          > young Venetian noblewomen, middle class matrons, "the shameful poor"
                          > (usually formerly rich women with a change of luck." and more. I love Black
                          > but the heat aspect is still daunting.
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > Jacki/erica
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22 AM
                          >
                          > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                          > in
                          > the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                          >
                          > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                          > you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                          >
                          > Elspeth Bouchannane
                          > Oertha West
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lynne Tolton
                          Raphaella, Let s agree to revisit this topic when we all get back from Pennsic. Book shopping opportunities abound there, so maybe you might only need to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                            Raphaella,

                            Let's agree to revisit this topic when we all get back from Pennsic.

                            Book shopping opportunities abound there, so maybe you might only need to
                            suggest some titles for us to look for.

                            I for one just want garb that suits my age and station in life. I don't
                            have any need to be a widow just now.

                            Thanks again,

                            More later,

                            Arelinda Poincelin

                            On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Raphaella DiContini
                            <raphaellad@...>wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been
                            > mentioned here don't assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble /
                            > patrician class just because she wears black. I'm not sure if it would be
                            > appropriate for me to scan any of the wood cuts or descriptions, but perhaps
                            > I could transcribe some exerpts here tonight. I don't want to cross an moral
                            > or legal boundries with copyright. I'm packing for a week away at camp with
                            > family, but I will try to remember to go through my books tonight and offer
                            > page numbers and quotes that look appropriate.
                            >
                            > If anyone else has either of these books at hand please feel free to chime
                            > in too. :)
                            >
                            > In joyous service,
                            > Raffaella
                            >
                            > From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                            > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:22 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                            > in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                            >
                            > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                            > you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                            >
                            > Elspeth Bouchannane
                            > Oertha West
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Chris Catalfamo
                            how prevalent is black among which desert people? ... From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                              how prevalent is black among which desert people?

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynne
                              Tolton
                              Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 1:34 PM
                              To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen in
                              the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black

                              Yup. . . but how or why do the desert people do it?

                              On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Chris Catalfamo <catalfamo1190@...
                              > wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Be sure to READ Vecellio's descriptions and look carefully at the
                              > woodcuts..
                              > There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and
                              > prostitutes, young Venetian noblewomen, middle class matrons, "the
                              shameful poor"
                              > (usually formerly rich women with a change of luck." and more. I love
                              > Black but the heat aspect is still daunting.
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > Jacki/erica
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22 AM
                              >
                              > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often
                              > seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                              >
                              > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what
                              > if you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                              >
                              > Elspeth Bouchannane
                              > Oertha West
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Chris Catalfamo
                              Wish I could go. Haven t been there since before I started dialysis in 2007. Oh the chocolate milk is wonderful! ... From:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                                Wish I could go. Haven't been there since before I started dialysis in 2007.
                                Oh the chocolate milk is wonderful!

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynne
                                Tolton
                                Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 1:43 PM
                                To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Italian Matrons in Black

                                Raphaella,

                                Let's agree to revisit this topic when we all get back from Pennsic.

                                Book shopping opportunities abound there, so maybe you might only need to
                                suggest some titles for us to look for.

                                I for one just want garb that suits my age and station in life. I don't
                                have any need to be a widow just now.

                                Thanks again,

                                More later,

                                Arelinda Poincelin

                                On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Raphaella DiContini
                                <raphaellad@...>wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been
                                > mentioned here don't assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble /
                                > patrician class just because she wears black. I'm not sure if it would
                                > be appropriate for me to scan any of the wood cuts or descriptions,
                                > but perhaps I could transcribe some exerpts here tonight. I don't want
                                > to cross an moral or legal boundries with copyright. I'm packing for a
                                > week away at camp with family, but I will try to remember to go
                                > through my books tonight and offer page numbers and quotes that look
                                appropriate.
                                >
                                > If anyone else has either of these books at hand please feel free to
                                > chime in too. :)
                                >
                                > In joyous service,
                                > Raffaella
                                >
                                > From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                                > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:22 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often
                                > seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                >
                                > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what
                                > if you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                                >
                                > Elspeth Bouchannane
                                > Oertha West
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Lynne Tolton
                                hmmm. . . I m thinking about the folks in the black tents, Tuareg maybe and perhaps Bedoin? ?? . . .or is that all fiction and movies? On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                                  hmmm. . . I'm thinking about the folks in the black tents, Tuareg maybe and
                                  perhaps Bedoin? ?? . . .or is that all fiction and movies?


                                  On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Chris Catalfamo
                                  <catalfamo1190@...>wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > how prevalent is black among which desert people?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynne
                                  > Tolton
                                  > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 1:34 PM
                                  >
                                  > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                                  > in
                                  > the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                  >
                                  > Yup. . . but how or why do the desert people do it?
                                  >
                                  > On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Chris Catalfamo <
                                  > catalfamo1190@...
                                  > > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Be sure to READ Vecellio's descriptions and look carefully at the
                                  > > woodcuts..
                                  > > There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and
                                  > > prostitutes, young Venetian noblewomen, middle class matrons, "the
                                  > shameful poor"
                                  > > (usually formerly rich women with a change of luck." and more. I love
                                  > > Black but the heat aspect is still daunting.
                                  > >
                                  > > _____
                                  > >
                                  > > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  > > Jacki/erica
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22 AM
                                  > >
                                  > > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often
                                  > > seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                  > >
                                  > > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what
                                  > > if you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                                  > >
                                  > > Elspeth Bouchannane
                                  > > Oertha West
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Raphaella DiContini
                                  I definately have some book suggestions that might be helpful. If there s a merchangt there where you can examine the books first to see if they might have the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                                    I definately have some book suggestions that might be helpful. If there's a merchangt there where you can examine the books first to see if they might have the information you're focused on before purchasing that might be best as at least one of them is out of print and they're all at least a bit spendy.
                                     
                                    The dress of the Venetians, 1495-1525 by Stella Mary Newton- this is out of print and the best price I've found is 105.36, but it ranges all the way up to over $300. If your focus is specifically Venetian fashion it's well worth the investment as it's a great (but I found easy to read) academic treatise on all aspects of Venetian fashion and even talks about the political implicaitons of specific styles and colors.
                                    Here's a link to the best price I've found so far: http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/9790333/used/The%20Dress%20of%20the%20Venetians,%201495-1525
                                    If you see this for under $100 and can afford to, I'd advise that you snap it up.
                                     The Clothing of the Renaissance World: Europe - Asia - Africa - The Americas by Ann Rosalind Jones &, Margaret F. Rosenthal  
                                    This newest edition is most valuable for the translations of descriptions that go with each wood cut fashion plate. Be aware that the artist lived in Venice, so I believe the styles from Venice, and even Florence are pretty spot-on, but the further afield he goes, the further out there he gets so I wouldn't advise using it for other than amusement for the native fashions of other lands that he would not have seen first hand. A new hardbound copy should run around $50-60, if it's more than that you can find it for cheaper on line. http://www.amazon.com/Clothing-Renaissance-World-Americas-Vecellios/dp/0500514267/ref=pd_ys_cs__2
                                     
                                    There is a digitized version of Vecellio's book online- but it doesn't have the most recent addition's fantastic translations. Still, if you would like to just look at the woodcut fashion images, it's free to do so:
                                    http://books.google.com/books?id=xUMuAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
                                    There are also other sources online that reference his work, this website is a great compilation of several of them:
                                    http://www.vecellio.net/ontheweb.html
                                     
                                     
                                    Of particular interest is this image of a woman described as a "Noble Matron" who seems to be dressed in a black loose gown with false oversleeves, a suit of ruffs, and a veil: http://italophiles.com/doll_matrona.htm%c2%a0I love the site this image comes from as it offers colored images from Vecellio ready to be made into paper dolls. :)
                                     
                                    Moda a Firenze is the other book I think may be useful, but I didn't get a chance to look through last night specifically for images of Matrons. It's a great book on all kinds of details of Florentine fashion and generally runs around $105-120. Here's a link http://www.amazon.com/Moda-Firenze-1540-1580-Eleonora-influenza/dp/8883048679
                                     
                                    We can definately revisit this when we all return from vacation. I'll be bringing my beloved's laptop to work on research projects and when I'm not working on that (and he's not playing games on it) I will try to find more images and information online as well.
                                     
                                    In joyous service,
                                    Raffaelal
                                    From: Lynne Tolton <ldtolton@...>
                                    To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 10:43 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Italian Matrons in Black

                                    Raphaella,

                                    Let's agree to revisit this topic when we all get back from Pennsic.

                                    Book shopping opportunities abound there, so maybe you might only need to
                                    suggest some titles for us to look for.

                                    I for one just want garb that suits my age and station in life.  I don't
                                    have any need to be a widow just now.

                                    Thanks again,

                                    More later,

                                    Arelinda Poincelin

                                    On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Raphaella DiContini
                                    <raphaellad@...>wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been
                                    > mentioned here don't assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble /
                                    > patrician class just because she wears black. I'm not sure if it would be
                                    > appropriate for me to scan any of the wood cuts or descriptions, but perhaps
                                    > I could transcribe some exerpts here tonight. I don't want to cross an moral
                                    > or legal boundries with copyright. I'm packing for a week away at camp with
                                    > family, but I will try to remember to go through my books tonight and offer
                                    > page numbers and quotes that look appropriate.
                                    >
                                    > If anyone else has either of these  books at hand please feel free to chime
                                    > in too. :)
                                    >
                                    > In joyous service,
                                    > Raffaella
                                    >
                                    > From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                                    > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:22 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                                    > in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                    >
                                    > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                                    > you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                                    >
                                    > Elspeth Bouchannane
                                    > Oertha West
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >

                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Lynne Tolton
                                    Thank you. These books look great. I have a friend who bought Moda a Fierenza last year so I have access to that. We re going to look for the big
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 28, 2011
                                      Thank you. These books look great. I have a friend who bought Moda a
                                      Fierenza last year so I have access to that. We're going to look for the
                                      big Jones/Rosenthal while we are at Pennsic.

                                      I do think that my personal preference is for an earlier period as I am not
                                      interested in the care and feeding of ruffs etc. But the link for the
                                      matron was GREAT. They do exist and some of us should get around to
                                      dressing that way. . . . and when the weather is trying to kill us like it
                                      does some times when camping, we can wear something else, if we like.

                                      More later,

                                      Arelinda Poincelin

                                      On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Raphaella DiContini
                                      <raphaellad@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I definately have some book suggestions that might be helpful. If there's a
                                      > merchangt there where you can examine the books first to see if they might
                                      > have the information you're focused on before purchasing that might be best
                                      > as at least one of them is out of print and they're all at least a bit
                                      > spendy.
                                      >
                                      > The dress of the Venetians, 1495-1525 by Stella Mary Newton- this is out of
                                      > print and the best price I've found is 105.36, but it ranges all the way up
                                      > to over $300. If your focus is specifically Venetian fashion it's well worth
                                      > the investment as it's a great (but I found easy to read) academic treatise
                                      > on all aspects of Venetian fashion and even talks about the political
                                      > implicaitons of specific styles and colors.
                                      > Here's a link to the best price I've found so far:
                                      > http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/9790333/used/The%20Dress%20of%20the%20Venetians,%201495-1525
                                      > If you see this for under $100 and can afford to, I'd advise that you snap
                                      > it up.
                                      > The Clothing of the Renaissance World: Europe - Asia - Africa - The
                                      > Americas by Ann Rosalind Jones &, Margaret F. Rosenthal
                                      > This newest edition is most valuable for the translations of descriptions
                                      > that go with each wood cut fashion plate. Be aware that the artist lived in
                                      > Venice, so I believe the styles from Venice, and even Florence are pretty
                                      > spot-on, but the further afield he goes, the further out there he gets so I
                                      > wouldn't advise using it for other than amusement for the native fashions of
                                      > other lands that he would not have seen first hand. A new hardbound copy
                                      > should run around $50-60, if it's more than that you can find it for cheaper
                                      > on line.
                                      > http://www.amazon.com/Clothing-Renaissance-World-Americas-Vecellios/dp/0500514267/ref=pd_ys_cs__2
                                      >
                                      > There is a digitized version of Vecellio's book online- but it doesn't have
                                      > the most recent addition's fantastic translations. Still, if you would like
                                      > to just look at the woodcut fashion images, it's free to do so:
                                      >
                                      > http://books.google.com/books?id=xUMuAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
                                      > There are also other sources online that reference his work, this website
                                      > is a great compilation of several of them:
                                      > http://www.vecellio.net/ontheweb.html
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Of particular interest is this image of a woman described as a "Noble
                                      > Matron" who seems to be dressed in a black loose gown with false
                                      > oversleeves, a suit of ruffs, and a veil:
                                      > http://italophiles.com/doll_matrona.htm I love the site this image comes
                                      > from as it offers colored images from Vecellio ready to be made into paper
                                      > dolls. :)
                                      >
                                      > Moda a Firenze is the other book I think may be useful, but I didn't get a
                                      > chance to look through last night specifically for images of Matrons. It's a
                                      > great book on all kinds of details of Florentine fashion and generally runs
                                      > around $105-120. Here's a link
                                      > http://www.amazon.com/Moda-Firenze-1540-1580-Eleonora-influenza/dp/8883048679
                                      >
                                      > We can definately revisit this when we all return from vacation. I'll be
                                      > bringing my beloved's laptop to work on research projects and when I'm not
                                      > working on that (and he's not playing games on it) I will try to find more
                                      > images and information online as well.
                                      >
                                      > In joyous service,
                                      > Raffaelal
                                      > From: Lynne Tolton <ldtolton@...>
                                      > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 10:43 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Italian Matrons in Black
                                      >
                                      > Raphaella,
                                      >
                                      > Let's agree to revisit this topic when we all get back from Pennsic.
                                      >
                                      > Book shopping opportunities abound there, so maybe you might only need to
                                      > suggest some titles for us to look for.
                                      >
                                      > I for one just want garb that suits my age and station in life. I don't
                                      > have any need to be a widow just now.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks again,
                                      >
                                      > More later,
                                      >
                                      > Arelinda Poincelin
                                      >
                                      > On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Raphaella DiContini
                                      > <raphaellad@...>wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > There are more images available than just Widows, but has already been
                                      > > mentioned here don't assume a woman is a matron, widow or even noble /
                                      > > patrician class just because she wears black. I'm not sure if it would be
                                      > > appropriate for me to scan any of the wood cuts or descriptions, but
                                      > perhaps
                                      > > I could transcribe some exerpts here tonight. I don't want to cross an
                                      > moral
                                      > > or legal boundries with copyright. I'm packing for a week away at camp
                                      > with
                                      > > family, but I will try to remember to go through my books tonight and
                                      > offer
                                      > > page numbers and quotes that look appropriate.
                                      > >
                                      > > If anyone else has either of these books at hand please feel free to
                                      > chime
                                      > > in too. :)
                                      > >
                                      > > In joyous service,
                                      > > Raffaella
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Jacki/erica <edenwild@...>
                                      > > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:22 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                                      > > in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                      > >
                                      > > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what if
                                      > > you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                                      > >
                                      > > Elspeth Bouchannane
                                      > > Oertha West
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • borderlands15213
                                      Bedouin is the...Arabic, I think?...word for people who live in the desert. I know there s a nomadic group in Turkey whose tents are black, and made of
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 1 9:00 AM
                                        "Bedouin" is the...Arabic, I think?...word for "people who live in the desert."

                                        I know there's a nomadic group in Turkey whose tents are black, and made of natural, undyed goat hair from the nomads' black goats. If the bedouin tents are black, are they dyed black, or are they natural-colored wool? (They are wool; that much I do know, and they're not closely woven: they filter the sunlight, rather than block it. Rain resistance isn't much of an issue---obviously.)

                                        Now, I might be mistaken or mis-remembering, but I'd thought (or "I have thought") for quite a long time that the Tuareg wear clothing dyed with indigo, and sometimes the dye is extremely dark, appearing black at a distance. It's from the dye, however, that they get their sobriquet "The Blue People" because the stuff comes off and stains their skin.


                                        Yseult the Gentle



                                        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Lynne Tolton <ldtolton@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > hmmm. . . I'm thinking about the folks in the black tents, Tuareg maybe and
                                        > perhaps Bedoin? ?? . . .or is that all fiction and movies?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Chris Catalfamo
                                        > <catalfamo1190@...>wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > how prevalent is black among which desert people?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynne
                                        > > Tolton
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 1:34 PM
                                        > >
                                        > > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often seen
                                        > > in
                                        > > the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                        > >
                                        > > Yup. . . but how or why do the desert people do it?
                                        > >
                                        > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Chris Catalfamo <
                                        > > catalfamo1190@...
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > **
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Be sure to READ Vecellio's descriptions and look carefully at the
                                        > > > woodcuts..
                                        > > > There are many classes of women who wore black: Courtesans and
                                        > > > prostitutes, young Venetian noblewomen, middle class matrons, "the
                                        > > shameful poor"
                                        > > > (usually formerly rich women with a change of luck." and more. I love
                                        > > > Black but the heat aspect is still daunting.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > _____
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        > > > Jacki/erica
                                        > > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22 AM
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Another thing not often
                                        > > > seen in the SCA - Italian Matrons in Black
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The topic of mature women seems to be revolving around widows but what
                                        > > > if you are not said widow - what would you wear?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Elspeth Bouchannane
                                        > > > Oertha West
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • otsisto
                                        Sorry, late coming in on this. ... De: This is broad brushing with SCA and
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 4 1:55 PM
                                          Sorry, late coming in on this.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          <<SEE They're ALWAYS in the pictures. But we in the SCA just don't do
                                          matrons. >>>

                                          De: This is broad brushing with SCA and not true. I have found that cultures
                                          vary in what would identify a woman as a matron. Matron is usually a
                                          middle-aged woman, usually married. Matron does not mean that the woman is
                                          widowed.

                                          <<< Now how EXACTLY are you going to know that I'm the woman in charge if I
                                          dress like a teen age girl all the time.>>>

                                          De: Please show examples of what you are speaking about. I have noted the
                                          matrons in the paintings.
                                          If you look through the Realms of Venus picture galleries you will see
                                          matrons wearing similar gowns as the maidens, though there are subtle
                                          differences, those differences may be due to matron status, region, or
                                          fashion creativity.

                                          <<<How about a deep red/maroon gown with gorgeous black brocade over dress?
                                          Or very deep dark green? >>>>

                                          De: If you are choosing those dark colors because you think that they are
                                          matron colors and not because you like the colors, please note that I have
                                          seen matrons in light pink, aqua, peach, and light blue.
                                          I have been researching 14th century Florence gowns and find that black is
                                          not worn by widows or matrons specifically, in fact black is a rare color.
                                          Hair styles is more of an identifier then color. I have noticed that those
                                          women that are identified as maidens are seen wearing a black headband. I
                                          have noticed that in the 14th century you can tell the matron by the "last
                                          years fashion" look but as you progress through the years/centuries the
                                          matron's style becomes more up to date with the trends.
                                        • Lynne Tolton
                                          All good information. thank you. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 15 5:44 AM
                                            All good information. thank you.

                                            On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:55 PM, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Sorry, late coming in on this.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > <<SEE They're ALWAYS in the pictures. But we in the SCA just don't do
                                            > matrons. >>>
                                            >
                                            > De: This is broad brushing with SCA and not true. I have found that
                                            > cultures
                                            > vary in what would identify a woman as a matron. Matron is usually a
                                            > middle-aged woman, usually married. Matron does not mean that the woman is
                                            > widowed.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > <<< Now how EXACTLY are you going to know that I'm the woman in charge if I
                                            > dress like a teen age girl all the time.>>>
                                            >
                                            > De: Please show examples of what you are speaking about. I have noted the
                                            > matrons in the paintings.
                                            > If you look through the Realms of Venus picture galleries you will see
                                            > matrons wearing similar gowns as the maidens, though there are subtle
                                            > differences, those differences may be due to matron status, region, or
                                            > fashion creativity.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > <<<How about a deep red/maroon gown with gorgeous black brocade over dress?
                                            > Or very deep dark green? >>>>
                                            >
                                            > De: If you are choosing those dark colors because you think that they are
                                            > matron colors and not because you like the colors, please note that I have
                                            > seen matrons in light pink, aqua, peach, and light blue.
                                            > I have been researching 14th century Florence gowns and find that black is
                                            > not worn by widows or matrons specifically, in fact black is a rare color.
                                            > Hair styles is more of an identifier then color. I have noticed that those
                                            > women that are identified as maidens are seen wearing a black headband. I
                                            > have noticed that in the 14th century you can tell the matron by the "last
                                            > years fashion" look but as you progress through the years/centuries the
                                            > matron's style becomes more up to date with the trends.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.