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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Authentic? RE: The Borgia Costuming what do you think?

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  • JolieH2000@AOL.com
    Thank you, De, I will just go back to lurking and reading and will not make the mistake of posting again! -Jolie ... From: otsisto To:
    Message 1 of 43 , Apr 14, 2011
      Thank you, De, I will just go back to lurking and reading and will not make the mistake of posting again!


      -----Original Message-----
      From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Apr 14, 2011 3:14 pm
      Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Authentic? RE: The Borgia Costuming what do you think?

      I had no hurt feelings. Was a wee bit annoyed that some folks were thinking
      that I was expecting the Borgias to be authentic in garb (I assure you that
      I haven't been overly sniffing the fabric sizing, though when I die I think
      I will win second place for most fabric).
      It would be nice if the show was or at least 90% period as this would lessen
      the work of killing clothing myths and misnomers(?). To many times with
      shows as these, people assume that the garb is period and not that it is
      stylized or designed to cater to the drama.
      So, you don't need to be very careful in wording. I have learned over the
      years that folks may speak English but don't communicate with it in the same
      way. :)
      On a side note: From what someone had posted, just because the costumer is
      from Italy, does not mean they are an expert in Italian historic clothing,
      it just means that they may have a good idea of the style. She was most
      likely hired for her designs and costuming skills then from her being
      Italian. I know of one Swedish costumer who has only the basics of Norwegian
      costumes (bunads) but can tell you a lot about French costumes (I think she
      may have been French in a past life). :)

      -----Original Message-----
      I'm sorry you feel like you were somehow being singled out and
      criticized; that certainly wasn't my intent. Personally I was responding
      to the general sense of the comments which are coming from a variety of
      list members. I thought we were all having a fun discussion about how
      Italian costuming was interpreted for this show. I will try phrase my
      future comments very carefully so there are no more hurt feelings.



      > Brad, Ginevra, and others,
      > I said
      > "Seeing as how the series is a fictional dramatization of history, the
      > costumes are more designed for drama and mood setting then authenticity."
      > Seeing as how the Borgias have been presented as a juicy drama similar
      > to the Tudors, I did not expect authenticity. As for Borgias could be
      > worse, the Tudors costumes started out with good facade costumes and
      > worked their way towards wacky so only time will tell with the Borgias.
      > I said nothing to the effect that the costumer did a bad job.
      > I have had some experience in theatre costuming and I do understand
      > that the costume designer has to cater to the vision of the director
      > and other constraints.
      > Brad said "I can argue to the difficulty of maintaining a period look
      > that will stand up to the rigors of performance,...."
      > I contend that movies do not have the constraints of needing a quick
      > change like stage and that outfits that were normally worn everyday
      > back then would have stood up to the rigors of performances.
      > I do not consider it an insult to compare to the big 3 pattern
      > companies. They do their best with catering to what clientele they
      > have. My comparison is more towards the designer not layering the
      > gowns but uses for example a gore to create a false under skirt or
      > gown like the big 3 patterns.
      > To clarify the comparison to carnival costume, I was inferring to
      > Italian carnivals like the one in Venice which the costumes are
      > usually above Halloween costume standards.
      > As for Florentine versus Venice, it all comes down to the waistline.
      > In the late 1400s, in Florence, the waistline is roughly around 1/2"
      > above the waistline and in Venice the waistline is right below the
      > bust. Therefore most of the gowns I have seen from the Borgias are
      > below the bust but way above the waistline and thus the gowns are
      > closer to Venetian than Florence.
      > None of what I have said indicates that the gowns from Borgias are
      > ugly, in fact I think the gowns are lovely and I would not mind having
      > some of them.
      > De
      > -

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    • Cilean_69
      We as costumer s and lover s of this time period and clothing seem to forget, a Costume Designer can not what they want to but must be restricted to what the
      Message 43 of 43 , Apr 29, 2011
        We as costumer's and lover's of this time period and clothing seem to forget, a Costume Designer can not what they want to but must be restricted to what the Director and Suits want the over all feel to be.

        The Tudor CD had beginning sketches that were pretty spot on the dot with history, but they were shot down because that is not what the Suits wanted. They then had to come up with things that were....a bit less, and the same for the Movie Boleyn Sisters and the Movies Elizabeth and others.

        It is not always up to what the Designer wants to show, but how the characters will show through.

        The CD of the Borgias could have steeped herself in History not unlike Ninya and Jane...who study their own English background and bring it forth as close to period perfect as they can....

        But even they have to listen to what their clients want....

        It is a business and very competitive, so if you don't want the work? Due to your aesthetics or ethics? Another Costume Designer will step in and do what they want.

        I personally would love to interview the CD and see what she had in her mind and what ended up in the Show. I think she did some effort since she is a professional to create something to give homage to the past, and I love the choices in fabrics. I would adore to own the fabric covering the 'bridal' bed of Lucretia.

        Also? I do hope that because there is a show that the Big 3 will move to revisit 1490's Italian City States and perhaps? Create something new or bring back some of the past attempts.

        I am not a big lover of the Big 3 so I will look to the ladies and gents who cater to Us the ones who want to have clothing of the past.

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