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Re: Sad news

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  • hillaryrose7
    I am so sorry for your loss. I pray that you and all who knew her find comfort in her memory. Elisabetta
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 6, 2011
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      I am so sorry for your loss. I pray that you and all who knew her find comfort in her memory.

      Elisabetta

      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <dakea@...> wrote:
      >
      > Perhaps some of you may have known her,
      >
      > This last Friday to Saturday my laurel Baroness Luciana di Ridolphi has
      > passed away.
      >
      > She was my greatest inspiration and mentor and we worked together on many
      > projects in Italian culture and costume.
      >
      > She was one of the first Calontir Laurels and has been a great example of
      > knowledge, wisdom and kindness to all of us, and she will greatly missed.
      >
      >
      >
      > It is with a heavy heart that I bring you these news.
      >
      >
      >
      > Baroness Amanda of Coldcastle
      >
      > OL,
      >
      > Filia Luci.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Amanda
      I thank you all for your kind words. It will be hard to find someone who would know more about Italian culture than Luci. She would find the most obscure and
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 6, 2011
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        I thank you all for your kind words.

        It will be hard to find someone who would know more about Italian culture
        than Luci.

        She would find the most obscure and interesting aspects for us to research
        and learn.

        Through her I learned about the Societa delle Calze, and other things I
        never even imagined to research.



        Her heart and mind will leave a huge void in our society.



        Amanda



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • oonaghsown
        Pink is a great colour for historic dress of many eras and geographies. Italy is no exception for this.
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 8, 2011
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          Pink is a great colour for historic dress of many eras and geographies. Italy is no exception for this.

          http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/my_first_steps_into_venetian_dre.htm

          this has many image of Venetian women wearing pink in one way or another.

          While this is a colour survey I put together from Venetian portraiture a few years ago.

          http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/curves/colours.htm

          hope this help and inspires.

          Cheers

          Deb

          Oonagh's Own
          http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/index.html

          --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Ismerelda Della Scala" <ccarbiener@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello everyone!
          >
          > I just started learning about the Italian Renaissance and I had a question. Are there any colors that women in Venice AVOIDED wearing? I am wanting to start making dresses but I don't want to make any in colors that aren't considered "period". I love pink, so I was wanting to make some dresses that had pink in them.
          >
          > Thank you for any info!
          >
        • ivinian
          My deepest condolences on your loss. Vangelista
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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            My deepest condolences on your loss.

            Vangelista

            --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <dakea@...> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps some of you may have known her,
            >
            > This last Friday to Saturday my laurel Baroness Luciana di Ridolphi has
            > passed away.
          • ivinian
            Hi! I d avoid yellow, since that was a color traditionally (also sometimes legally) reserved for prostitutes (see Duby, History of Private Life vol2, p569
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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              Hi! I'd avoid yellow, since that was a color traditionally (also sometimes legally) reserved for prostitutes (see Duby, "History of Private Life" vol2, p569 among others). For earlier period Renaissance, darker shades of brown, green, black/charcoal grey, blue might be considered mourning colors, but obviously in the later Renaissance that went out the window. Grey was usually considered a very austere color--nuns wore it, also peasants and those in mourning, though some women wore it by choice (see Herald 120). Very very bright reds and some shades of purples might run you into sumptuary laws depending on the region and year, so if that matters to you, take a quick look at Catherine Kovesi Killerby's "Sumptuary Law in Italy 1200-1500".

              Pink should be just fine. One of my all-time favorite Renaissance paintings, Ghirlandaio's "The Birth of Saint John the Baptist", circa 1490, has a woman in a pink giornea in it. (http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm) I love pink so I keep an eye out for that color myself!

              Vangelista
              www.florentine-persona.com



              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Ismerelda Della Scala" <ccarbiener@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello everyone!
              >
              > I just started learning about the Italian Renaissance and I had a question. Are there any colors that women in Venice AVOIDED wearing? I am wanting to start making dresses but I don't want to make any in colors that aren't considered "period". I love pink, so I was wanting to make some dresses that had pink in them.
              >
              > Thank you for any info!
              >
            • Ismerelda Della Scala
              Thank you for that great info and Thank you to Deb, as well! Its good to know pink is a good color to wear. =D
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                Thank you for that great info and Thank you to Deb, as well! Its good to know pink is a good color to wear. =D

                --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, ivinian <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi! I'd avoid yellow, since that was a color traditionally (also sometimes legally) reserved for prostitutes (see Duby, "History of Private Life" vol2, p569 among others). For earlier period Renaissance, darker shades of brown, green, black/charcoal grey, blue might be considered mourning colors, but obviously in the later Renaissance that went out the window. Grey was usually considered a very austere color--nuns wore it, also peasants and those in mourning, though some women wore it by choice (see Herald 120). Very very bright reds and some shades of purples might run you into sumptuary laws depending on the region and year, so if that matters to you, take a quick look at Catherine Kovesi Killerby's "Sumptuary Law in Italy 1200-1500".
                >
                > Pink should be just fine. One of my all-time favorite Renaissance paintings, Ghirlandaio's "The Birth of Saint John the Baptist", circa 1490, has a woman in a pink giornea in it. (http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm) I love pink so I keep an eye out for that color myself!
                >
                > Vangelista
                > www.florentine-persona.com
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Ismerelda Della Scala" <ccarbiener@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello everyone!
                > >
                > > I just started learning about the Italian Renaissance and I had a question. Are there any colors that women in Venice AVOIDED wearing? I am wanting to start making dresses but I don't want to make any in colors that aren't considered "period". I love pink, so I was wanting to make some dresses that had pink in them.
                > >
                > > Thank you for any info!
                > >
                >
              • otsisto
                As far as I know yellow = prostitute is city specific and usually item specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils BUT this doesn t
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                  As far as I know yellow = prostitute is city specific and usually item
                  specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils BUT
                  this doesn't mean that it was not in other cities. Understand that during
                  the renaissance the united Italy we know today did not exist back then.
                  Venice and Florence, two major cities back then did not get along with each
                  other and you will notice in paintings of those two cities that the clothing
                  was slightly different so the rules on colors most likely did not apply to
                  every city.
                  If the yellow rule was all across the Italian City states Sofonisba
                  Anguissola painted her mother as a prostitute.
                  http://tinyurl.com/4azdmfm

                  De
                  I have plans to make this dress some day. Have a shot jacquard of blue and
                  peach with the lattice pattern. :)

                  -----Original Message-----
                  Hi! I'd avoid yellow, since that was a color traditionally (also sometimes
                  legally) reserved for prostitutes (see Duby, "History of Private Life" vol2,
                  p569 among others).
                  (snip)
                  Vangelista
                  www.florentine-persona.com
                • Bella
                  ... For the reasons De has already mentioned, I doubt this assertion on the part of Duby. I see that vol2 relates to the medieval world, and primarily France.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                    >>>Hi! I'd avoid yellow, since that was a color traditionally (also sometimes
                    >>>legally) reserved for prostitutes (see Duby, "History of Private Life" vol2,
                    >>>p569 among others).<<<<

                    For the reasons De has already mentioned, I doubt this assertion on the part of
                    Duby. I see that vol2 relates to the medieval world, and primarily France.
                    Perhaps Vangelista, if you could share with us the relevant paragraph/s we could
                    ascertain the exact time and place Duby is referring to.


                    >>>For earlier period Renaissance, darker shades of brown, green, black/charcoal
                    >>>grey, blue might be considered mourning colors, but obviously in the later
                    >>>Renaissance that went out the window.<<<<


                    Again, this is very interesting, as I haven't read anything about anything other
                    than black being a mourning colour in Italy. Perhaps this refers to France? Or
                    an earlier time?



                    Bella
                  • Bella
                    ... specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                      >>>As far as I know yellow = prostitute is city specific and usually item
                      specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils<<<


                      I would love to know more De. I've got references to the same rule except in
                      Florence.


                      >>>If the yellow rule was all across the Italian City states Sofonisba
                      Anguissola painted her mother as a prostitute.
                      http://tinyurl.com/4azdmfm

                      De
                      I have plans to make this dress some day. Have a shot jacquard of blue and
                      peach with the lattice pattern. :)<<<<<


                      I love that dress!



                      Bella
                    • otsisto
                      ... I would love to know more De. I ve got references to the same rule except in Florence. Me bad, I remembered the era wrong. Long ago I was reading a
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                        -----Original Message-----
                        >>>As far as I know yellow = prostitute is city specific and usually item specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils<<<

                        I would love to know more De. I've got references to the same rule except in Florence.>>>>>>

                        Me bad, I remembered the era wrong. Long ago I was reading a book on Byzantine Rome and there was a mention of the yellow veil for "women of ill repute". As I was just gleaning the info for an event I did not record the book or author. I think I remember that it was written in the 1950s and Oxford publishing.
                        I had not heard of Florence having the yellow rule but I'm not surprised. Florence always seems to me to a little overly prime and proper. A very conservative people which is why I prefer Venice over Florence in most thing except garb. Both have nice clothing. :)

                        Being lazy and not posting separate;
                        Belle, do you know where I might find a bigger picture of this painting?
                        http://www.bigli.com/images/quadri/Q_Sofonisba_Anguissola_79.jpg

                        Thank you,
                        De
                      • otsisto
                        Sofonisba and Campi http://tinyurl.com/4a8m7qr De
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                          Sofonisba and Campi
                          http://tinyurl.com/4a8m7qr

                          De
                        • Bella
                          ... I had not heard of Florence having the yellow rule
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                            >>>Me bad, I remembered the era wrong. Long ago I was reading a book on Byzantine
                            >>>Rome and there was a mention of the yellow veil for "women of ill repute". As I
                            >>>was just gleaning the info for an event I did not record the book or author. I
                            >>>think I remember that it was written in the 1950s and Oxford publishing.
                            I had not heard of Florence having the yellow rule<<<


                            I first read about it in Lynn Lawner's 'Lives of the Courtesans' but having had
                            a quick look I can't find the page number. If you're keen I can hunt it down for
                            you later tonight when I'm not in the middle of writing an essay. The definitive
                            quote on yellow veils in Florence is in Paul Larivaille's work on the daily life
                            of the courtesan in the renaissance, in French, although an Italian translation
                            by Maura Pizzorno is available (that's the one I have). I haven't been able to
                            discover an English translation yet.


                            >>>Being lazy and not posting separate;
                            Belle, do you know where I might find a bigger picture of this painting?
                            http://www.bigli.com/images/quadri/Q_Sofonisba_Anguissola_79.jpg




                            Only a little larger, but maybe a bit
                            better: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Sofonisba_Anguissola.jpg



                            Bella
                          • otsisto
                            I needed to see if I was remembering correctly so I did a little search. A man wearing yellow http://tinyurl.com/4etreks Child wearing yellow
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                              I needed to see if I was remembering correctly so I did a little search.
                              A man wearing yellow
                              http://tinyurl.com/4etreks

                              Child wearing yellow
                              http://tinyurl.com/4opndwf

                              New to me painting of a lovely gown w/yellow lining
                              http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Sofonisba_Anguissola_-_lviv_gallery.jpg

                              The gown underneath is gold/yellow
                              http://www.mannerism-in-art.org/Portrait-of-a-Noble-Woman-large.html

                              While searching found some pink.
                              Pink dress 1585. The mantel appears to have ruffles.(religious painting)
                              http://tinyurl.com/4njndmx

                              pink and orange
                              http://tinyurl.com/4v6exnq


                              happened across a painting: shows a camicia with black work on the sleeves only and black embroidery along the seams down the front bodice.
                              http://tinyurl.com/4vpxep5

                              De
                            • otsisto
                              ... I first read about it in Lynn Lawner s Lives of the Courtesans but having had a quick look I can t find the page number. If you re keen I can hunt it
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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                                -----Original Message-----
                                I first read about it in Lynn Lawner's 'Lives of the Courtesans' but having had a quick look I can't find the page number. If you're keen I can hunt it down for you later tonight when I'm not in the middle of writing an essay. The definitive quote on yellow veils in Florence is in Paul Larivaille's work on the daily life of the courtesan in the renaissance, in French, although an Italian translation by Maura Pizzorno is available (that's the one I have). I haven't been able to
                                discover an English translation yet.>>>>

                                De: Thank you but I do not have a courtesan persona so the info would only be for trivia sake or in other words, noted in the brain about Florence. Also what hardcore filing system that I have isn't really good so if you got the info it would get lost. :P


                                >>>Being lazy and not posting separate;
                                Belle, do you know where I might find a bigger picture of this painting?
                                http://www.bigli.com/images/quadri/Q_Sofonisba_Anguissola_79.jpg

                                Only a little larger, but maybe a bit
                                better: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Sofonisba_Anguissola.jpg >>>>>>

                                This helps. I now can tell that she is indeed holding a fleafur.
                                Thank you,
                                De
                              • Annikki Raiford
                                My husband just shared an interesting question when I showed him both the remastered painting that I ve seen before, and this one with the two left hands - is
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 10, 2011
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                                  My husband just shared an interesting question when I showed him both the
                                  remastered painting that I've seen before, and this one with the two left
                                  hands - is this a self commentary along the lines of a dancer having two
                                  left feet?

                                  There must be a fascinating story behind it, regardless.

                                  Thank you for posting it!

                                  Adele

                                  On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 11:26 PM, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sofonisba and Campi
                                  > http://tinyurl.com/4a8m7qr
                                  >
                                  > De
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • ivinian
                                  Oh, that would be a lovely gown. The reason I used the wording I did was that the OP said she was going for Venice IIRC, and the Duby info dealt specifically
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 11, 2011
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                                    Oh, that would be a lovely gown. The reason I used the wording I did was that the OP said she was going for Venice IIRC, and the Duby info dealt specifically with Venice--but I could've made that more clear, for sure! ;) Sumptuary law was a complete mishmash across time and geography, and what was okay one year might be totally not the next--like that law passed by Perugia in 1416 outlawing veils on anybody but widows and women under religious orders, even in mourning and during bad weather--that didn't last too long at all (anecdote from Killerby, "Sumptuary Law in Italy" p.64).

                                    I'd just say this: some colors, like the aforementioned yellows and bright reds, could run a woman into trouble depending on the city and era. When embarking on a potential problem color, it's a good idea to find some backup in the form of art or records.

                                    >>Again, this is very interesting, as I haven't read anything about anything other than black being a mourning colour in Italy. Perhaps this refers to France? Or an earlier time?

                                    I got the information out of Frick (p175 mentioning brownish-red; p. 90 and 288 mentioning brown) and Herald p120 for the other colors. Killerby 73 specifically mentions a Florentine law from 1322 that forbade all women from wearing black unless widowed and another from Brescia in 1473 that set strict limits on how long mourning could be worn. That oughta get things started :) Until the mid-1470s when some rather high-profile foreign weddings occurred, Frick asserts that Italians didn't seem to see black as a "normal" clothing color, and it wasn't utterly fashionable till 1502 with a very bold move by the newly-married Lucrezia Borgia (picking up on the trend, she brought some 30 black gowns with her to her groom's home when she got married). So yeah, I think your timeframe usually runs about a century later than mine!

                                    Vangelista

                                    --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > As far as I know yellow = prostitute is city specific and usually item
                                    > specific. I have only heard of Rome having the rule and only for veils BUT
                                    > this doesn't mean that it was not in other cities. Understand that during
                                    > the renaissance the united Italy we know today did not exist back then.
                                    > Venice and Florence, two major cities back then did not get along with each
                                    > other and you will notice in paintings of those two cities that the clothing
                                    > was slightly different so the rules on colors most likely did not apply to
                                    > every city.
                                    > If the yellow rule was all across the Italian City states Sofonisba
                                    > Anguissola painted her mother as a prostitute.
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/4azdmfm
                                    >
                                    > De
                                  • ivinian
                                    Oh dear heavens, this got long. Forgive me in advance. ... Of course! For generations the merchant had been recognized by his bearing, the Venetian senator by
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 12, 2011
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                                      Oh dear heavens, this got long. Forgive me in advance.

                                      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > For the reasons De has already mentioned, I doubt this assertion on the part of
                                      > Duby. I see that vol2 relates to the medieval world, and primarily France.
                                      > Perhaps Vangelista, if you could share with us the relevant paragraph/s we could
                                      > ascertain the exact time and place Duby is referring to.

                                      Of course! "For generations the merchant had been recognized by his bearing, the Venetian senator by his black costume, the Jew by his star, and the prostitute by her yellow dress. A late-fourteenth-century Venetian court document evokes a poor girl held in a hovel who is saved from being condemned to a life of prostitution because of the screams she lets out when the shameful garb of that trade is handed to her." Duby, p. 569-570. There isn't a specific citation to that incident. I also wonder now if the "shameful garb" wasn't actually a dress but a scarf, given the timeframe (I listed some quotes below about that).

                                      Quite a bit of the book relates to Italy and one entire section deals specifically with Tuscany; the timeframes run from the 1200s to the 1500s, so it's not really very medieval! ;) I'd love to know just what the citation was for that charming little tale; I did a search for it but didn't turn anything up, but then, Venice isn't my super strong point.

                                      > Again, this is very interesting, as I haven't read anything about anything other
                                      > than black being a mourning colour in Italy. Perhaps this refers to France? Or
                                      > an earlier time?

                                      The Herald book is called "Dress in Renaissance Italy 1400-1500", so I don't think she means France or an earlier time. ;) The relevant quote: "Mourning is denoted by the wearing of dark colours, some of which were part of everyday dress anyway. Dull, dark shades of mulberry, blue, green and brown, as well as black, were donned by the bereaved. However, in 1438, following a terrible attack of plague, it was forbidden in the city of Venice to wear the three colori corozosi, mourning colors of black, green and blue, for had such a law not been passed the whole dispirited population would have been wearing those shades, for the number of dead was high" (p. 120, citation from: Levi Pisetzky, Il Costume e la Moda, p. 72).

                                      Also: "Francesco Sforza, on announcing the death of his grandmother, Agnese del Majno, said: We will arrange the funeral honourably, as she deserves. . . By our honour and duty we are clothed in dark green; and we will wear this colour until Christmas, when we will change to morello; and I intend that we should go about in that for a few months. Your brothers just dress in morello" p.122, citation from: Bianca Maria Visconti, duchessa di Milano, by W. Terni de'Gregori, p. 192.

                                      And this: "Besides being a colour of mourning, green was worn at the court of Milan on several important occasions. Another shade worn in mourning was monachino, a brown with a reddish tint. It is the colour of an item of widow's clothing in an inventory of 1465; but it also appears in non-mourning dress, though usually for a functional mantello or cioppa of not great value" (p. 122 also, with citation for the inventory: Polidori Calamandrei, "Le vesti delle donne fiorentine nel Quattrocento," p. 130).

                                      I'll mention here that it's quite hard to spell color "colour" in retyping these quotes. ;)

                                      Carole Collier Frick mentions mourning a few times in her book, "Dressing Renaissance Florence", but here are the main quotes. This is from the glossary, p. 314, on "pavonazzo: Deep, rich, blue-violet color, similar to the body of the male peacock. . . A color of some confusion, it could be either pavonazzo scuro or pavanozzo morello and could be associated with mourning or mark an important occasion."

                                      Second Frick, glossary entry for "Berrettino: A dark grey 'ashen' color, suitable for mourning clothes. In Venice, permission had to be obtained by males to wear this color to the meetings of the ruling Collegio. Berrettino appears to have been a personal favorite color of Isabella d'Este" (p. 302, but Herald mentioned Isabella's apparent preference for dark gray for everyday clothing as well).

                                      Now for a happy dump of yellow. I didn't see much else about dresses per se, but yellow had a pretty clear connection with prostitution in Venice at any rate for the 1400s range. I don't think Florence had quite the same association; Frick mentions quite a few yellow gowns listed for wives (p. 176 for a good start).

                                      From "Crime, society and law in Renaissance Italy" by Trevor Dean and KJP Lowe: "Venetian prostitutes were required to wear a yellow neckband, and were not permitted to wear silk or jewellery (even fake jewellery). In Bergamo, from 1490, they had to wear a saffron-colored scarf, and in Bologna and Pistoia rules insisting that they wear a yellow veil, to distinguish them from women of 'honest life,' were published in 1545 and 1558" (p. 92). It also mentions that Milan chose black or white for the distinguishing colors, and that in Piedmont prostitutes had to wear horns on their headgear ;) Now there's an outfit I want to see.

                                      From "Encyclopedia of prostitution and sex work, vol 1": "In Bergamo and Liepzig, a yellow cloak was required" (p. 108). It doesn't really give a timeframe though. It also asserts that Venice began the yellow scarf thing around 1416, which is why I wonder about the Duby quote perhaps meaning a scarf, not a whole dress.

                                      From "Studies in the Psychology of Sex Vol 6": "When, in 1546, Cosimo, Duke of Florence, ordered all prostitutes to wear a yellow veil or handkerchief as a public badge of their profession, Tullia appealed to the Duchess, a Spanish lady of high character, and received permission to dispense with this badge on account of her 'rara scienzia di poesia et filosofia.'" (p. 209), about Florence obviously.

                                      From "Venice's Most Loyal City: Civic Identity in Renaissance Brescia": "In 1478 the special council unanimously agreed that prostitutes ought not to step outside of the brothel without the sign by which they could be recognized by all. The sign, it was agreed, ought to be a yellow stripe three fingers in breadth, surrounded with a red fringe or with red cloth within the stripe. It should run across the shoulder and over the bodice or be tied under the bodice. The sign should be worn clearly and firmly tied or attached, and prostitutes should go uncovered without veils" (p. 129). PS I WANT A GOWN LIKE THIS.

                                      Also, this, from "Women and men in Renaissance Venice: twelve essays on patrician society" by Stanley Chojnacki: "As with sodomy, regulation intensified in the early fifteenth century, especially the 1420s, with laws requiring prostitutes to wear yellow scarves at their necks. . ." (p. 36).

                                      What's funny is that while researching the question I ran into this from a note in the Frick book: "In Renaissance Rome prostitutes and Jews were made to wear red gowns" (p. 287) from another book about Venice. It doesn't list a timeframe, however, so I'm reluctant to consider it a generalization till I know what years she's talking about.

                                      Now, the big disclaimer. Obviously sumptuary law varied wildly between cities and even more obviously it varied wildly even in the same city from year to year. Just because a type of garment is required or outlawed doesn't mean that people actually did what the law dictated. And I suspect there were shades of colors that made a huge difference--mostanolione/lionato/fulvo/tane (tawny) versus limonato, for example, or rosato versus chermisi. I saw De's references and they're sumptuous all right, but I'd like to mention that all three of the yellow portraits were 16th-century, not 15th as I've been working with here, and that the third is not only 16th-century but that its lining looks much more tawny than yellow on my monitor at least. I've been saying all along that it looked like a lot of the color associations seem like they were thrown out the window by the early 1500s.

                                      I'd really love to see some of the actual Italian for these rules and laws to see what shades they were referring to. At any rate, hopefully though I've found enough to be on firm footing with the assertion that yellow had a distinct association with prostitution in Venice during the 1400s. Dresses? Maybe not necessarily; I didn't see a lot about dresses in general besides a few mentions here and there without years or citations--I skipped those. But then I haven't gotten a lot of sumptuary law books yet. I'm getting one at some point and you can bet that's going to be one topic I visit pretty quickly. Fascinating stuff all around, to me at least.

                                      I love you guys :) Research makes me so happy.

                                      Vangelista
                                    • Bella
                                      The first Italian Showcase for 2011 is now up. :-) http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/showcase.htm Bella PS...I have reduced the number of
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                        The first Italian Showcase for 2011 is now up. :-)
                                        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/showcase.htm



                                        Bella
                                        PS...I have reduced the number of Showcases to a maximum of 12 per year, due
                                        both to the slowing down of demand, and to time constraints due to study, so if
                                        you want to be featured this year please make sure you send me your submission
                                        as soon as possible. :-)
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