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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Clothing Style Help

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  • Karen Finnemore
    I ruled out this being a loose gown based on the tight fit, the preference for the wearer to close it at mid breast level, and the shoulder having no
    Message 2 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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      I ruled out this being a loose gown based on the tight fit, the preference
      for the wearer to close it at mid breast level, and the shoulder having no
      treatment.

      -Ren

      On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:35 AM, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > The outer garment appears to be a loose gown/ropa which can be found in
      > several countries.
      > http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/my_loose_gown.htm
      > http://www.heorot.co.nz/Hall/Wardrobe/Elizabethan/GermanGown/
      > http://www.caitlinsclothing.com/loosegown.html
      >
      > pics
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Angelo_Bronzino_060.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hans_Eworth_Unknown_Woman_1557.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LadyDacre.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EleonoradiToledo02.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gripsholm_Elizabeth.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pourbus_lady_pomander.jpg
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alessandro_Allori_003.jpg ?
      >
      >


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    • Isabella D'Angelo
      It looks like a doublet gown just without a puffy sleeve.
      Message 3 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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        It looks like a doublet gown just without a puffy sleeve.

        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1560sisdmdog.jpg

        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/alloricircle1570s.jpg

        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/roma/zelotti_obizzi2rome.jpg

        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/roma/pulzozonefaustinaorsinimattei1590sr.jpg

        -Isabella


        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Karen Finnemore <ladyren@...> wrote:
        >
        > Gretings unto the list,
        >
        > I am hitting a wall with this. I want to recreate this outfit from Santi di
        > Tito's Portrait of a Girl:
        > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santi_di_tito,_ritratto_femminile.jpg.,
        > however, I am not certain what the bottom half of the outfit would look
        > like. I can not find much evidence in either late Italian garb, or
        > Elizabethan, from the time frame that Tito was painting, that would indicate
        > whether this was a gown, or simply a jacket type of garment. Does anyone
        > have any research or know of similiar portraits that would back up a claim
        > for either? Any help is greatly appreciated!
        >
        > -Ren
        > Lady Renata l'rouge, known by most as the posh rot
        > Kingdom of Aethelmearc
        > MKA Ren Finnemore
        >
        > --
        > The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere,
        > someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there
        > on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done. -George Carlin
        >
        > If you obey all the rules you miss all the fun.
        > -- Katharine Hepburn
        >
        > Every fight is a food fight when you're a cannibal.
        > -- Demetri Martin
        >
        > Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with popcorn.
        > --Fulton J. Sheen
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Karen Finnemore
        I have been pouring over paintings, woodcuts and documents a plenty on the quest to delve deeper into this portrait. These are my current thoughts on the
        Message 4 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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          I have been pouring over paintings, woodcuts and documents a plenty on the
          quest to delve deeper into this portrait. These are my current thoughts on
          the matter; please, please feel free to add input if my musings
          seem incorrect!

          I can find limitless contemporary portraits of men wearing pinked jerkins
          similiar to this, but none of any women wearing one without an overgown or
          doublet. The seam lines on the outfit are very similiar to Elizabethan
          waistcoats, as is the lack of a decorative shoulder treatment; however, I
          can not find a waistcoat that was pinked, as opposed to being embroidered or
          plain. Outside of the decoration along the seams and the pinking, this
          outfit has very little embellishment. Even the accoutrements are simple:
          flowers and a ribbon in the lady's hair, one pearl to accent the ribbon, and
          a strand of pearls at her neck. She may have a ring on her left hand,
          though that might also be a flower from the bouquet that she is holding.
          Even her partlet and smock are unadorned-no embroidery indicating this is a
          noblewoman "dressing down."

          To my knowledge, it was rare for a noblewoman to sit a portrait such as
          this, without wearing her finest threads. It was not as rare for the wife,
          or other female relatives, of the painter to sit in more common wear as
          subjects for practice paintings, however. There are also examples of
          courtesans sitting for portraits in less than...proper clothing.
          A look at the choice of colors this lady is wearing may provide me with some
          clues. It is my understanding that the red ribbon and the use of yellow
          denote that the sitter is a courtesan; somewhere I have resources on
          sumptuary laws from the region, but before I make a conclusion, I need to
          confirm this. Otherwise, I think it most plausible that this lady is the
          wife of the painter, or some such muse, and that she is wearing her nice
          house clothes...

          Still researching, and I appreciate all of the information you all are
          sending my way!

          -Ren


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        • Brad Moore
          snip:  I can find limitless contemporary portraits of men wearing pinked jerkins similiar to this, but none of any women wearing one without an overgown or
          Message 5 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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            snip:  I can find limitless contemporary portraits of men wearing pinked jerkins
            similiar to this, but none of any women wearing one without an overgown or
            doublet.

            Ren,
            If you have access to Moda a Firenze there are a few examples of pinking,
            slashing, stamping, and other forms of perforation on garments for women.  On
            page 176 there is a closeup detail of a cape which is very similar to the
            treatment of the yellow garment in the portrait.  It also describes a garment
            for a very young girl, "On 28 September 1571, for the young Virginia of just
            three years old, there was delivered a 'low-necked (petticoat) of white satin
            with long and short sleeves, all slashed with a design by Mastro Nicholaio and
            decorated with tablet-woven gold and silk fringes lined with mauve taffeta'.  Il
            Bachiacca too executed slashed decorations on the clothes of Eleonora" (of
            Toledo) (Landini, p. 177).  Also, on pages 256 and 272 of Cesare Vecellio's The
            Clothing of the Renaissance World, there are woodcuts which depict gowns with
            the sort of front closure and neckline exhibited in di Tito's portrait of a
            girl.  Another issue, I believe, is the age of the sitter.  She appears quite
            young.  I wonder if perhaps this is a betrothal portrait, to have been sent to
            her future husband.  Her age might have something to do with her dress, and if I
            recall correctly, unmarried women in Italy dressed somewhat differently from
            their married counterparts.

            Je Reste,

            Nicolas



             Brad Moore 

            "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a
            merrier world."
            - J.R.R. Tolkien





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          • otsisto
            http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santi_di_tito,_ritratto_femminile.jpg If you look near the arms eye you will notice a bump or fold of fabric that
            Message 6 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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              http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santi_di_tito,_ritratto_femminile.jpg

              If you look near the arms eye you will notice a "bump" or fold of fabric
              that indicates that the bodice is not fully fitted, nor tight. Also, you
              will find loose gowns to be buttoned in various ways. And you will not
              always have a shoulder treatment.
              Loose gown with no shoulder treatment
              http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CountessLivia.jpg

              -----Original Message-----
              I ruled out this being a loose gown based on the tight fit, the preference
              for the wearer to close it at mid breast level, and the shoulder having no
              treatment.

              -Ren
            • Karen Finnemore
              If you look at Giovanni Batista Moroni s portrait, The Tailor, there are similiar fabric folds in the chest area, near the shoulder joins:
              Message 7 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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                If you look at Giovanni Batista Moroni's portrait, The Tailor, there are
                similiar fabric folds in the chest area, near the shoulder joins:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Giovanni_Battista_Moroni_001.jpg

                Also, in my opinion, the portrait of Countess Livia does show decorative
                shoulder treatment, in that there are gathers at the arm head to create
                poofing. That is just my opinion, and is one of the reasons that I don't
                view the original portrait as a loose gown.

                -Ren


                On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 6:27 PM, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santi_di_tito,_ritratto_femminile.jpg
                >
                > If you look near the arms eye you will notice a "bump" or fold of fabric
                > that indicates that the bodice is not fully fitted, nor tight. Also, you
                > will find loose gowns to be buttoned in various ways. And you will not
                > always have a shoulder treatment.
                > Loose gown with no shoulder treatment
                > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CountessLivia.jpg
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bella
                A couple of points I would like to comment on if I may. Courtesans did not wear one or another particular colour as far as I have discovered. In fact you will
                Message 8 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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                  A couple of points I would like to comment on if I may. Courtesans did not wear
                  one or another particular colour as far as I have discovered. In fact you will
                  find that although yellow was an exception in the wardrobe of Eleonora de
                  Toledo, both she and her daughter in law Giovanna owned items in both red and
                  yellow ('Moda a Firenze', p.28), red of course being a very popular colour
                  throughout the sixteenth century, and yellow finding favour in the second half
                  of the century. The yellow stripe or band that was required by Florentine law to
                  be worn by courtesans on veils often gets amplified so that the colour seems to
                  have taken on a life of its own.

                  Another thing is that we cannot use a Venetian example of a loose gown without
                  the 'baragoni' (decorative shoulder bits) as an example of the practice in
                  Florence. All of the Florentine examples I've seen (including all of the ones in
                  'Moda...') have 'baragoni'.

                  If I had to decide what this young lady is wearing, I would hazard a guess that
                  she is wearing a doublet. From 'Moda a Firenze', p.80:

                  "In the wardrobe of Cammilla Martelli there are frequent records of petticoat
                  made up of the skirt only...This could then be completed [in the sense of 'worn
                  with'], not by the traditional low-necked bodice, but by an independent garment
                  of a totally new type which was destined to enjoy great fortune, and which was
                  not present in Eleonora's wardrobe: the doublet. Taken from the male wardrobe,
                  the doublet clothed the bust and terminated at the waist, either straight or
                  finished with little tabs. It had a standing collar, which could also be worn
                  open, a buttoned front opening and narrow sleeves. Already by the 1570s there
                  were a remarkable number of doublets recorded for Cammilla and her daughter.
                  Some of these , often very elaborate, were made up to match petticoats without
                  bodice."

                  Hope this helps in some way.


                  Bella
                • Karen Finnemore
                  This does help, yes. As I had said, I could not venture to assign this portrait as a courtesan due to colors, without having appropriate resources to back
                  Message 9 of 12 , Jan 30, 2011
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                    This does help, yes. As I had said, I could not venture to assign this
                    portrait as a courtesan due to colors, without having appropriate resources
                    to back that up, and I simply haven't had the time today to research that
                    aspect thoroughly.

                    I do appreciate the Moda a Firenze reference on the doublet. It has been
                    some time since I have had access to the book, sadly. I have many portraits
                    and woodcuts of women wearing this style of jerkin, however they always had
                    an overgown or doublet over top, as well. (I have always been taught that a
                    doublet was short sleeved and a jerkin long sleeved, so forgive me if I mix
                    them up.) I will readily admit that Nicholas's explanation of this being a
                    younger girl is very plausible, (and thank you! That hadn't crossed my
                    mind!!)

                    -Ren


                    On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Bella
                    <bella_lucia_da_verona@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > A couple of points I would like to comment on if I may. Courtesans did not
                    > wear
                    > one or another particular colour as far as I have discovered. In fact you
                    > will
                    > find that although yellow was an exception in the wardrobe of Eleonora de
                    > Toledo, both she and her daughter in law Giovanna owned items in both red
                    > and
                    > yellow ('Moda a Firenze', p.28), red of course being a very popular colour
                    > throughout the sixteenth century, and yellow finding favour in the second
                    > half
                    > of the century. The yellow stripe or band that was required by Florentine
                    > law to
                    > be worn by courtesans on veils often gets amplified so that the colour
                    > seems to
                    > have taken on a life of its own.
                    >
                    > Another thing is that we cannot use a Venetian example of a loose gown
                    > without
                    > the 'baragoni' (decorative shoulder bits) as an example of the practice in
                    > Florence. All of the Florentine examples I've seen (including all of the
                    > ones in
                    > 'Moda...') have 'baragoni'.
                    >
                    > If I had to decide what this young lady is wearing, I would hazard a guess
                    > that
                    > she is wearing a doublet. From 'Moda a Firenze', p.80:
                    >
                    > "In the wardrobe of Cammilla Martelli there are frequent records of
                    > petticoat
                    > made up of the skirt only...This could then be completed [in the sense of
                    > 'worn
                    > with'], not by the traditional low-necked bodice, but by an independent
                    > garment
                    > of a totally new type which was destined to enjoy great fortune, and which
                    > was
                    > not present in Eleonora's wardrobe: the doublet. Taken from the male
                    > wardrobe,
                    > the doublet clothed the bust and terminated at the waist, either straight
                    > or
                    > finished with little tabs. It had a standing collar, which could also be
                    > worn
                    > open, a buttoned front opening and narrow sleeves. Already by the 1570s
                    > there
                    > were a remarkable number of doublets recorded for Cammilla and her
                    > daughter.
                    > Some of these , often very elaborate, were made up to match petticoats
                    > without
                    > bodice."
                    >
                    > Hope this helps in some way.
                    >
                    > Bella
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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