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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Hi new member with question

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  • otsisto
    The white and gold sleeve are a part of a full dress/gown. The blue is not connected to the white and gold. Two separate gowns. This person interpreted the
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 21, 2010
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      The white and gold sleeve are a part of a full dress/gown. The blue is not
      connected to the white and gold. Two separate gowns.
      This person interpreted the layers the same way you did
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2005/Jennifer.htm

      Separate
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Alaina.htm

      Here is a similar over gown with a jerkin and skirt underneath
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2004/Alaina2004.htm
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2004/Jen.htm

      The blue gown would be lined so that if the edge were to be blown back you
      wouldn't see the back of the fabric. Also the trim is suppose to help weigh
      the skirt down some and most likely the trim proceeds down the front and
      stops approx. 2" from the hem, turning to go around the skirt bottom.
      The ruffled and embroidered neckline is most likely a partlet but can be a
      part of a shift or shirt like camicia.
      This is a man's camicie
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extmencam3.htm
      but feesable example.

      De

      -----Original Message-----
      Hi, my name is Lady Jennett de la Montainge, from the kingdom of Lochac. I'm
      a new-ish sewer having taught myself how to sew just over a year ago in
      order to try my hand at making some fabulous Italian Ren gowns.

      At the moment, I'm working on a replica of the blue dress in the famous
      Alessandro Allori portrait
      http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eleonora_di_Don_Garzia_di_Toledo_di_P
      ietro_de'_Medici,_by_Alessandro_Allori.jpg

      So far I have made most of the over gown (minus sleeves) and the underskirt.
      My question is this: how can I attach the two pieces together so that the
      overskirt edges don't flap open as I walk?

      I would greatly appreciate any help from more experienced costumers than I.
    • otsisto
      Better example of separate http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bianca_Cappello_de _Medici_with_her_s on_Antonio.jpeg http://tinyurl.com/2bzxcyz This one you
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 21, 2010
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        Better example of separate
        http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bianca_Cappello_de'_Medici_with_her_s
        on_Antonio.jpeg
        http://tinyurl.com/2bzxcyz

        This one you can tell it is a partlet.
        http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4969747
        http://tinyurl.com/2bopp34

        De

        -----Original Message-----

        Hi, my name is Lady Jennett de la Montainge, from the kingdom of Lochac. I'm
        a new-ish sewer having taught myself how to sew just over a year ago in
        order to try my hand at making some fabulous Italian Ren gowns.

        At the moment, I'm working on a replica of the blue dress in the famous
        Alessandro Allori portrait
        http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eleonora_di_Don_Garzia_di_Toledo_di_P
        ietro_de'_Medici,_by_Alessandro_Allori.jpg

        So far I have made most of the over gown (minus sleeves) and the underskirt.
        My question is this: how can I attach the two pieces together so that the
        overskirt edges don't flap open as I walk?

        I would greatly appreciate any help from more experienced costumers than I.




        ------------------------------------

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      • lilinah@earthlink.net
        ... I own a late 19th c. satin skirt for day wear, not formal. The fabric is amazingly dense and heavy, although not at all uncomfortable to wear. I imagine
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 21, 2010
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          alex wrote:
          >In these kinds of outfits with an open over skirt the first thing that
          >keep the skirts from flapping is the weight/body of the fabric and
          >trim,

          I own a late 19th c. satin skirt for day wear, not formal. The fabric
          is amazingly dense and heavy, although not at all uncomfortable to
          wear. I imagine that, in the case of the blue and white outfit, the
          blue fabric would have been like this. I suppose high end couture
          today would have access to similar fabric, but i haven't seen modern
          fabric which is similar in fabric stores.

          >and the second thing is you just can not walk with purpose,
          >walking slow and graceful will keep everything in place.

          Indeed, one great difference is how people of the past would have
          moved, compared to us. We modern women are so used to lightweight
          fabrics; trousers & jeans & shorts & short skirts; minimal support
          garments; and sport shoes. All of which enable us to move swiftly and
          with long strides, although i see that 3'' to 5'' spike heels are
          back in fashion, for which women who wear them will have to adjust
          their gait & posture. Girdles were quite common when i was young,
          worn by teens for formal occasions and by adult women much of the
          time, when women rarely wore trousers. For informal occasions women
          wore garter belts to hold up their stockings, because panty hose had
          not been invented and tights were only for little girls. I sure don't
          know anyone who wears a girdle these days, and garter belts are not
          worn for general practical purposes, more for the intimate &
          seductive ;)

          All these things (i.e., garments, shoes, & fabrics) contribute from
          one side to how people (here i am obviously speaking as a woman)
          would carry themselves: sit, stand, walk, ride in a carriage/cart or
          on horseback, carry items, etc. From another side are cultural
          expectations of the genders and of the classes, which would also
          affect how one moved, stood, etc. depending on one's gender and
          socioeconomic class.

          I suspect many of us do not consider these things, although i know
          that once i am fully dressed in 16th c. upper class underpinnings,
          outer layers, and head coverings, i sit, stand, and move differently
          than i do as my modern self. Definitely a more relaxed ambling stroll
          along with shorter strides, etc. After all, if we are supposed to be
          rich women, what is the rush? These changes in my movements keep my
          outer skirts from flapping back. I only encounter difficulties if it
          is windy.

          A question i have had, and for which i have no answer, concerns the
          use of weights in garments. In the 20th c. women's gowns often had
          weights in strategic places to keep the parts hanging correctly.
          Actual garment weights (tiny flat metal circles) were sold then,
          although one can substitute modern coins, modern washers, etc. So i
          have wondered if such things were ever used in complex multi layered
          16th c. European women's garments (or men's for that matter). Any
          ideas?

          Fiametta Basilio
        • Chris Catalfamo
          I have trouble keeping sleeves and a camicia with square neck in place, as well as three layers of sleeves--camicia sleeves plus pane cap sleeves plus
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 21, 2010
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            I have trouble keeping sleeves and a camicia with square neck in place, as well as three layers of sleeves--camicia sleeves plus pane cap sleeves plus undersleeves with openings. This is my most recent attempt at a 1530's. My persona at the Pittsburgh Faire (although I never get to do it) is the mother of the Bassanos--musicians and instrument makers from Venice in the court of Henry VIII. This is from a whole bunch of Bella's portraits. Lots of mistakes. I spend half the time fixing mistakes. We were being bad so it's a little racy. Italians are scandalous! But the court often wore Italian fashions for Italian events. Thus so many in the queens' wardrobes. I'm mixing some English/Spanish blackwork in too. I didn't do the camicia. Bonnie Beglin did it. I had to alter the neckline and that may be the reason I had trouble keeping it where it was supposed to be. I altered the front but not the back. I have to do the skirt over too. I needed the seam to be off center. I either have to spread out the pleats to make that happen or add a piece. I need only about 2 inches. I made the apron to cover where the seam is.
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming/photos/album/1098776932/pic/1603242713/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: lilinah@...
            To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 2:21 PM
            Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Hi new member with question



            alex wrote:
            >In these kinds of outfits with an open over skirt the first thing that
            >keep the skirts from flapping is the weight/body of the fabric and
            >trim,

            I own a late 19th c. satin skirt for day wear, not formal. The fabric
            is amazingly dense and heavy, although not at all uncomfortable to
            wear. I imagine that, in the case of the blue and white outfit, the
            blue fabric would have been like this. I suppose high end couture
            today would have access to similar fabric, but i haven't seen modern
            fabric which is similar in fabric stores.

            >and the second thing is you just can not walk with purpose,
            >walking slow and graceful will keep everything in place.

            Indeed, one great difference is how people of the past would have
            moved, compared to us. We modern women are so used to lightweight
            fabrics; trousers & jeans & shorts & short skirts; minimal support
            garments; and sport shoes. All of which enable us to move swiftly and
            with long strides, although i see that 3'' to 5'' spike heels are
            back in fashion, for which women who wear them will have to adjust
            their gait & posture. Girdles were quite common when i was young,
            worn by teens for formal occasions and by adult women much of the
            time, when women rarely wore trousers. For informal occasions women
            wore garter belts to hold up their stockings, because panty hose had
            not been invented and tights were only for little girls. I sure don't
            know anyone who wears a girdle these days, and garter belts are not
            worn for general practical purposes, more for the intimate &
            seductive ;)

            All these things (i.e., garments, shoes, & fabrics) contribute from
            one side to how people (here i am obviously speaking as a woman)
            would carry themselves: sit, stand, walk, ride in a carriage/cart or
            on horseback, carry items, etc. From another side are cultural
            expectations of the genders and of the classes, which would also
            affect how one moved, stood, etc. depending on one's gender and
            socioeconomic class.

            I suspect many of us do not consider these things, although i know
            that once i am fully dressed in 16th c. upper class underpinnings,
            outer layers, and head coverings, i sit, stand, and move differently
            than i do as my modern self. Definitely a more relaxed ambling stroll
            along with shorter strides, etc. After all, if we are supposed to be
            rich women, what is the rush? These changes in my movements keep my
            outer skirts from flapping back. I only encounter difficulties if it
            is windy.

            A question i have had, and for which i have no answer, concerns the
            use of weights in garments. In the 20th c. women's gowns often had
            weights in strategic places to keep the parts hanging correctly.
            Actual garment weights (tiny flat metal circles) were sold then,
            although one can substitute modern coins, modern washers, etc. So i
            have wondered if such things were ever used in complex multi layered
            16th c. European women's garments (or men's for that matter). Any
            ideas?

            Fiametta Basilio




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brandy
            I m still working on mine, lol. I got stupid and decided to decorate the undergown including where you normally would not see since I might decide to take off
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 25, 2010
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              I'm still working on mine, lol. I got stupid and decided to decorate the undergown including where you normally would not see since I might decide to take off the overgown if the weather (here in TX) makes it too hot to wear all those layers.

              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
              >
              > The white and gold sleeve are a part of a full dress/gown.
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