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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Black lace in 16thC Italy

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  • Deborah Lane
    Hi De, Thanks for finding this image. I have it in a book but hadn t found it online. This is the best image to illustrate the completely over the top
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 8, 2010
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      Hi De,



      Thanks for finding this image. I have it in a book but hadn't found it
      online. This is the best image to illustrate the completely over the top
      decadence of the uses of black lace. I wouldn't have credited the use of
      lace in this way before seeing this image. and there it is, lace over
      dresses.



      2 sisters (apparently) with their husbands. The one on the left had
      children so she has a mink representing fecundity. The other has a lynx for
      fidelity and the hand on the dog for faithfulness.



      Cheers



      Deb



      _____

      From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of otsisto
      Sent: Thursday, 9 September 2010 8:25 AM
      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Black lace in 16thC Italy





      Found this, late period, Fontana
      http://tinyurl.com/33xld6w

      De





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bella
      ... are more rounded and less triangular. I m going to go looking for the site again but if I don t find it I ll upload the zoomed images to my website and
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 8, 2010
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        >>>When that site was found I took screen shots of the zoomed-in cuff and
        >>>neckline and kept them on my computer. It does not appear to be a needle-lace
        >>>edge. The background is opaque, white, and scalloped, with red embroidery on
        >>>both the cuff and scalloped edge/border. The neckline is identical, except that
        >>>the scallops
        are more rounded and less triangular. I'm going to go looking for the site again
        but if I don't find it I'll upload the zoomed images to my website and post a
        link.<<<<



        I found it. Go to: http://legionofhonor.famsf.org/search-collections Using the
        search window on that page won't work, so go to 'Collections' and scroll down to
        and click on 'Search the Collections'. In the search window on the left type in
        the keyword 'Fasolo'. A thumbnail image will appear - click on it and then on
        "Explore this Image' which appear over the larger image. You can zoom all the
        way in on the cuff and neckline.



        Bella
      • Bella
        http://tinyurl.com/33xld6w ... Hmm...interesting theory Deb. The over-dress looks more like patterned silk to me. Same design, two different colours. Although
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 8, 2010
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          http://tinyurl.com/33xld6w

          >>>This is the best image to illustrate the completely over the top decadence of
          >>>the uses of black lace. I wouldn't have credited the use of lace in this way
          >>>before seeing this image. and there it is, lace over dresses.<<<<

          Hmm...interesting theory Deb. The over-dress looks more like patterned silk to
          me. Same design, two different colours. Although it realy is hard to tell from
          this image. I have a hard time imagining that lace was used over a bodice like
          that, not to mention being sat on.

          However, I CAN see what appears to be pointy black lace edging the both the
          sisters' sleeve openings, and the skirt openings seem to be edged with something
          that could be lace, so it's an intriguing conjecture. The only thing I'm
          confident enough to say is that the black pointy things around the sleeve
          opening definitely look like lace to me, so there is at least one bit of fairly
          good evidence for black lace in Italy.


          >>>2 sisters (apparently) with their husbands. The one on the left had children so
          >>>she has a mink representing fecundity<<<<



          The highest likelihood is that it was a Sable Marten, not a Mink. Minks are
          related but different. The Sable Marten (usually referred to simply as Sable) is
          Martes Zibellina, where the Italian word for this item - zibellino - comes from.



          Bella
        • otsisto
          Is the sleeve covers in a net lace or a sheer with embroidery? I appears to me as lace. http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159421112
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 13, 2010
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            Is the sleeve covers in a net lace or a sheer with embroidery? I appears to me as lace.

            http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159421112

            zoomable pic.

            De
          • otsisto
            Close up of the red gown http://tinyurl.com/2uercdc I am unable to find the close up of the white gown again. The close up that I had found of the bodices of
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 13, 2010
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              Close up of the red gown
              http://tinyurl.com/2uercdc

              I am unable to find the close up of the white gown again. The close up that I had found of the bodices of both gowns show panels connected by needle lace bars or at least looks like needle lace bars, giving the impression that it is lace and not fabric.

              Though I can not seem to find it, I remember a late period drawing of a woman with a black lace mantel so I do not find it hard to believe that it would be used for a outer gown cover. In making a lace over gown it gives the impression of riches and luxury.

              Side find, portrait of a Venetian woman as "Astronomy"
              http://tinyurl.com/24wz8b3

              De


              -----Original Message-----

              http://tinyurl.com/33xld6w

              >>>This is the best image to illustrate the completely over the top decadence of >>>the uses of black lace. I wouldn't have credited the use of lace in this way >>>before seeing this image. and there it is, lace over dresses.<<<<

              Hmm...interesting theory Deb. The over-dress looks more like patterned silk to me. Same design, two different colours. Although it realy is hard to tell from this image. I have a hard time imagining that lace was used over a bodice like that, not to mention being sat on.

              However, I CAN see what appears to be pointy black lace edging the both the sisters' sleeve openings, and the skirt openings seem to be edged with something
              that could be lace, so it's an intriguing conjecture. The only thing I'm confident enough to say is that the black pointy things around the sleeve opening definitely look like lace to me, so there is at least one bit of fairly good evidence for black lace in Italy.


              Bella
            • Alexandria Doyle
              I d say sheer embroidery. There is the appearance of a fabric ground whereas if it were a net lace there would be open ground or holes between the motifs.
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 13, 2010
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                I'd say sheer embroidery. There is the appearance of a fabric ground
                whereas if it were a net lace there would be open ground or holes
                between the motifs.

                alex

                So much to do and so little attention span to get it done with…



                On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:46 PM, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:
                > Is the sleeve covers in a net lace or a sheer with embroidery? I appears to me as lace.
                >
                > http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159421112
                >
                > zoomable pic.
                >
                > De
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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