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Black lace ?

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  • otsisto
    Has anyone come across black lace in a garment from a painting or extant? De
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 2, 2010
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      Has anyone come across black lace in a garment from a painting or extant?

      De
    • Deborah Lane
      Yes! Look up the history of lace by santina levey.. Bible for lace. Cheers Deb _____ From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 2, 2010
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        Yes! Look up the history of lace by santina levey.. Bible for lace.



        Cheers



        Deb



        _____

        From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of otsisto
        Sent: Friday, 3 September 2010 11:03 AM
        To: Italian Renaissance
        Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Black lace ?





        Has anyone come across black lace in a garment from a painting or extant?

        De





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bella
        From: otsisto Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Black lace ? Has anyone come across black lace in a garment from a painting or
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 2, 2010
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          From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
          Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Black lace ?

          Has anyone come across black lace in a garment from a painting or extant?<<<




          According to the aforementioned lace bible by Santina Levey, "no black needle
          lace has survived" (p12). However, she does mention it as being evident in
          Flemish and English (possibly imported from Flanders) portraits of the late 16th
          century. I can't offhand recall any in Italian portraits. There's not much
          evidence for black lace in our period, or in Italy, but outside Italy
          (especially in Flanders) and well outside our period (second quarter 17th
          century) and onwards, black lace was widely used. There are a couple of extant
          examples from the two middle quarters of the seventeenth century in the book.



          Bella




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bella
          While I was looking for the other Moroni I found a portrait I hadn t seen before at the Web Gallery of Art. According to the site it s from circa 1560 (could
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 7, 2010
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            While I was looking for the other Moroni I found a portrait I hadn't seen before
            at the Web Gallery of Art. According to the site it's from circa 1560 (could
            very well be 1550s) :-)

            http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/moroni/reddress.html

            Love the pink and gold colour combination. What do you think that is in her left
            hand?


            Bella
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            ... The deep rich rose satin is a lovely color, especially with the deeper wine, almost plum, colored (velvet?) trim. ... That is, a cloth bag in her left
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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              Bella wrote:
              >While I was looking for the other Moroni I found a portrait I hadn't
              >seen before
              >at the Web Gallery of Art. According to the site it's from circa 1560 (could
              >very well be 1550s) :-)
              >
              >http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/moroni/reddress.html
              >
              >Love the pink and gold colour combination.

              The deep rich rose satin is a lovely color, especially with the
              deeper wine, almost plum, colored (velvet?) trim.

              >What do you think that is in her left hand?

              According to the caption:
              >She holds a cloth bag in one hand and a "caccia dei pulci" (flea
              >fur) in the other.

              That is, a cloth bag in her left hand, and a flea fur in her right,
              although, i have to say, that so called bag on the table looks almost
              as if it had a face between her thumb and forefinger.
              --
              Fiametta Basilio
            • Bella
              From: lilinah@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] New portrait by Moroni ... Yep, I read the description but
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] New portrait by Moroni

                >>>><snip>That is, a cloth bag in her left hand, and a flea fur in her right,
                >>>>although, i have to say, that so called bag on the table looks almost as if it
                >>>>had a face between her thumb and forefinger.<<<<



                Yep, I read the description but the thing in her left hand doesn't look like a
                cloth bag to me either, which is why I wondered what other thought. I hadn't
                noticed the little face-like folds between her thumb and forefinger. Wonder if
                it's a glove.



                Bella
              • ayeshatrentacapilli
                I thought is was a napkin in her hand before I read the description. I m curious about her belt, do you think it is knotted cord? or large gold beads linked
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                  I thought is was a napkin in her hand before I read the description.

                  I'm curious about her belt, do you think it is knotted cord? or large gold beads linked together?

                  Ayesha

                  --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] New portrait by Moroni
                  >
                  > >>>><snip>That is, a cloth bag in her left hand, and a flea fur in her right,
                  > >>>>although, i have to say, that so called bag on the table looks almost as if it
                  > >>>>had a face between her thumb and forefinger.<<<<
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yep, I read the description but the thing in her left hand doesn't look like a
                  > cloth bag to me either, which is why I wondered what other thought. I hadn't
                  > noticed the little face-like folds between her thumb and forefinger. Wonder if
                  > it's a glove.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bella
                  >
                • Isabella D'Angelo
                  Most likely, gold beads. You can see a bit of a shine on one near the front of her belt that would indicate a metal. Also, the sable fur is connect to the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                    Most likely, gold beads. You can see a bit of a shine on one near the front of her belt that would indicate a metal. Also, the sable fur is connect to the belt and you can see the loop ring attached. Given that the head and chain to the sable fur are most likely metal, and there is no discernible difference in color or treatment between the loop and the belt, I'm going with metal.

                    The trim on the gown looks to be red velvet with a gold braid on either side to match the gold forepart.

                    The cloth....looks to be a rabbit? Honestly, if you zoom up to 200% it has bunny ears. And big wide eyes....


                    -Isabella

                    --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "ayeshatrentacapilli" <lmblauvelt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I thought is was a napkin in her hand before I read the description.
                    >
                    > I'm curious about her belt, do you think it is knotted cord? or large gold beads linked together?
                    >
                    > Ayesha
                    >
                    >
                  • otsisto
                    While searching for the large pic that Bella wanted I found this http://www.myartprints.com/a/moroni-giovanni-battista/portrait-of-a-young-girl-20.html
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                    • otsisto
                      More new to me http://tinyurl.com/2v6swbw http://www.flickr.com/photos/maulleigh/4372059314/ De
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                      • lilinah@earthlink.net
                        ... It did not look like a bag to me, either... my first thought was a glove, but it really isn t clear :( Fiametta Basilio
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 8, 2010
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                          lilinah@... wrote:
                          > ><snip>
                          > > That is, a cloth bag in her left hand, and a flea fur in her right,
                          > > although, i have to say, that so called bag on the table looks
                          >almost as if it
                          > > had a face between her thumb and forefinger.

                          Bella replied:
                          >Yep, I read the description but the thing in her left hand doesn't look like a
                          >cloth bag to me either, which is why I wondered what other thought. I hadn't
                          >noticed the little face-like folds between her thumb and forefinger. Wonder if
                          >it's a glove.

                          It did not look like a bag to me, either... my first thought was a
                          glove, but it really isn't clear :(

                          Fiametta Basilio
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