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OT Forks, was OP underwear?

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  • lilinah@earthlink.net
    ... Odd, i have found no evidence that any Turks ate with forks. There were and are quite a few different Turks. In period there were Seljuks, Mamluks (not all
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 30, 2010
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      Salvi wrote:
      >To further extend the cultural differences, Western cultures
      >disdained many things for a long time that were direct associations
      >with the East. Forks are another example of this. Most European
      >cultures refused to use a fork when it was provided because it was a
      >tool of the Saracens and therefore a tool of the devil. They felt
      >they should use what God provided them - their fingers. The first of
      >the cultures to adopt a fork as an eating utensil, I believe, are
      >the Venetians because they developed good relations with the Turks
      >thus the evil mysticism they used to have was lifted.

      Odd, i have found no evidence that any Turks ate with forks. There
      were and are quite a few different Turks. In period there were
      Seljuks, Mamluks (not all of whom were Turks), and Ottomans, to name
      but a few. Which Turks did you mean?

      The Ottoman Turks were quite proud of their wooden spoons, which were
      generally the only utensils at table; although knives might
      occasionally appear they were not typical.

      I have seen early Byzantine forks and these would qualify as Eastern.
      But the Byzantines were no Saracens.

      Fiametta Basilio
    • tom pahdea
      On behalf of Salvi, she must have meant to express herself as the following which would probably better qualify a statement in exactitude: Most Europeans
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 30, 2010
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        On behalf of Salvi, she must have meant to express herself as the following which would probably better qualify a statement in exactitude:

        "Most Europeans cultures refused to use a fork when t was provided because it was perceived as a tool of heathens such as the Saracens and therefore a tool of the devil."

        I believe we all can agree that one's beliefs and practices differentiating from another's could be percieved as heathen.


        > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
        > From: lilinah@...
        > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:26:50 -0700
        > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OT Forks, was OP underwear?
        >
        > Salvi wrote:
        > >To further extend the cultural differences, Western cultures
        > >disdained many things for a long time that were direct associations
        > >with the East. Forks are another example of this. Most European
        > >cultures refused to use a fork when it was provided because it was a
        > >tool of the Saracens and therefore a tool of the devil. They felt
        > >they should use what God provided them - their fingers. The first of
        > >the cultures to adopt a fork as an eating utensil, I believe, are
        > >the Venetians because they developed good relations with the Turks
        > >thus the evil mysticism they used to have was lifted.
        >
        > Odd, i have found no evidence that any Turks ate with forks. There
        > were and are quite a few different Turks. In period there were
        > Seljuks, Mamluks (not all of whom were Turks), and Ottomans, to name
        > but a few. Which Turks did you mean?
        >
        > The Ottoman Turks were quite proud of their wooden spoons, which were
        > generally the only utensils at table; although knives might
        > occasionally appear they were not typical.
        >
        > I have seen early Byzantine forks and these would qualify as Eastern.
        > But the Byzantines were no Saracens.
        >
        > Fiametta Basilio
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Raphaella DiContini
        This has kind of veered away from costuming, but it definately has to do with the Italian Renaissance. :) I tend to try to do as close to full immersion
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 30, 2010
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          This has kind of veered away from costuming, but it definately has to do with the Italian Renaissance. :) I tend to try to do as close to full immersion research into my chosen persona as possible, which is 1570's Venice. This includes not only what all she would have worn, and what she would have eaten, but how she would have eaten it.
           
          Mistress Oonagh has written an interesting paper on the introduction of the dining fork (as opposed to meat and serving forks which had been used earlier and much more widely), to Venetian culture and from there it's gradual spread across Europe. You can see it here:
          http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/curves/genesis_of_the_dining_fork_in_eu.htm
           
          In joyous service,
          Raffaella
          --- On Fri, 7/30/10, tom pahdea <tompahdea@...> wrote:


          From: tom pahdea <tompahdea@...>
          Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OT Forks, was OP underwear?
          To: italian_renaissance_costuming@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:50 AM



          On behalf of Salvi, she must have meant to express herself as the following which would probably better qualify a statement in exactitude:

          "Most Europeans cultures refused to use a fork when t was provided because it was perceived as a tool of heathens such as the Saracens and therefore a tool of the devil."

          I believe we all can agree that one's beliefs and practices differentiating from another's could be percieved as heathen.


          > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
          > From: lilinah@...
          > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:26:50 -0700
          > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OT Forks, was OP underwear?
          >
          > Salvi wrote:
          > >To further extend the cultural differences, Western cultures
          > >disdained many things for a long time that were direct associations
          > >with the East. Forks are another example of this. Most European
          > >cultures refused to use a fork when it was provided because it was a
          > >tool of the Saracens and therefore a tool of the devil. They felt
          > >they should use what God provided them - their fingers. The first of
          > >the cultures to adopt a fork as an eating utensil, I believe, are
          > >the Venetians because they developed good relations with the Turks
          > >thus the evil mysticism they used to have was lifted.
          >
          > Odd, i have found no evidence that any Turks ate with forks. There
          > were and are quite a few different Turks. In period there were
          > Seljuks, Mamluks (not all of whom were Turks), and Ottomans, to name
          > but a few. Which Turks did you mean?
          >
          > The Ottoman Turks were quite proud of their wooden spoons, which were
          > generally the only utensils at table; although knives might
          > occasionally appear they were not typical.
          >
          > I have seen early Byzantine forks and these would qualify as Eastern.
          > But the Byzantines were no Saracens.
          >
          > Fiametta Basilio
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
                                   

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lilinah@earthlink.net
          ... Thank you. Oonagh wrote that forks came to Venice when an 11th c. Turkish princess married a Doge. At that time the Seljuk Turks controlled much of the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 30, 2010
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            Raffaella wrote:
            >Mistress Oonagh has written an interesting paper on the introduction
            >of the dining fork (as opposed to meat and serving forks which had
            >been used earlier and much more widely), to Venetian culture and
            >from there its gradual spread across Europe. You can see it here:
            >http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oonaghsown/curves/genesis_of_the_dining_fork_in_eu.htm

            Thank you.

            Oonagh wrote that forks came to Venice when an 11th c. Turkish
            princess married a Doge.

            At that time the Seljuk Turks controlled much of the Middle East.
            However, in order to reduce conflict in Anatolia, what is now the
            Asian part of modern Turkey, Seljuk nobility often took wives from
            the Byzantine nobility, since they both occupied parts of Anatolia.
            So it is still likely that the forks were Byzantine in origin.

            The only truly SCA period Middle Eastern fork i have seen is from
            12th c. Persia, and therefore also Seljuk. In this case it is NOT an
            eating fork, but a rare and special luxury item. Cast in silver and
            with niello decoration, it has a shallow circular spoon bowl on one
            end and a small two tined fork on the other. Both the spoon bowl and
            the tined part FOLD on simple hinges toward the central handle. It
            would likely have been used to spear pickled vegetables and spoon
            fruit jams. Unfortunately i have not seen a photo of this on the web,
            but have it in a book at home, and since it is OT for this list see
            not reason to post it to the Photo archive.

            Fiametta Basilio
          • Raphaella DiContini
            I d still love to see it if you re willing to share, either here or privately whichever you re more comfortable with. Are you on the SCA cooks list? Your email
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 30, 2010
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              I'd still love to see it if you're willing to share, either here or privately whichever you're more comfortable with. Are you on the SCA cooks list? Your email looks very familiar. :)

              In joyous service,
              Raffaella
               



              --- On Fri, 7/30/10, lilinah@... <lilinah@...> wrote:


              "The only truly SCA period Middle Eastern fork i have seen is from
              12th c. Persia, and therefore also Seljuk. In this case it is NOT an
              eating fork, but a rare and special luxury item. Cast in silver and
              with niello decoration, it has a shallow circular spoon bowl on one
              end and a small two tined fork on the other. Both the spoon bowl and
              the tined part FOLD on simple hinges toward the central handle. It
              would likely have been used to spear pickled vegetables and spoon
              fruit jams. Unfortunately i have not seen a photo of this on the web,
              but have it in a book at home, and since it is OT for this list see
              not reason to post it to the Photo archive.

              Fiametta Basilio"




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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