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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OP underwear?

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  • Raphaella DiContini
    I think levels of historical accuracy are also a personal choice, and that people negatively commenting (especially on one s undergarments) without being asked
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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      I think levels of historical accuracy are also a personal choice, and that people negatively commenting (especially on one's undergarments) without being asked for feedback is not the way to inspire and frankly they're sticking their nose literally where it doesn’t belong. There's a world of difference between, "have you seen this great resource, it has examples of the _____ you're working on", and "you're doing it wrong, those aren't period"- the first helps guide people and may show them new possibilities; the second offers nothing useful whatsoever.
       
      I am baffled though as underwear in the Italian renaissance is very well documented- even for women. The latest Patterns of Fashion alone has several examples, including one pair that has monochrome embroidery that reads something to the effect of "I want his heart", which to me would indicate that they belonged to a woman, but I could be wrong on that. At this point I can't definitively document corsets to the Italian Renaissance, especially in Florence and Venice other than conjecture based on the exterior shape in portraits, but I can document the heck out of undergarments worn on the lower half of the body. Not only are there extant examples, there are also cheeky wood cuts (some conjecture that they were works of erotica) that are essentially adult flip-ups where you flip up the lady's skirt to reveal her chopines, stockings and what are clearly underpants.

       
      In joyous service,
      Raffaella di Contino

      --- On Fri, 7/30/10, Brad Moore <mamluk@...> wrote:


      From: Brad Moore <mamluk@...>
      Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OP underwear?
      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 7:44 AM


      SNIP:  Hey, I'm not going to check under your skirts, wear what you like.

      I think this is the crux of it, lol.  I agree totally, Ann.  I don't think that
      anyone would tell you not to wear underwear because they may or may not be
      period, only that a good set of documentation hasn't been set down for western
      Europe yet. 

       Brad Moore 

      "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a
      merrier world."
      - J.R.R. Tolkien




      ________________________________
      From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:42:46 AM
      Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OP underwear?

       
      There is plenty of evidence for women Not wearing trousers or pants of any kind.
      (in Europe in the vast majority of the Middle Ages and Renaissance (& in the
      18th century, too))

      There are the occasional hints that some women some where some time in the
      middle ages and renaissance might have worn underpants of some sort.

      Mostly the references are in stories or depictions of "who wears the pants in
      the family".
      Heavily Islamic or Islam-influenced areas are specifically excluded from my
      statements.

      Ann in CT





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    • otsisto
      The topic has not reach a personal level within the shire. When costuming and authenticity comes up almost always there is someone saying woman didn t wear
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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        The topic has not reach a personal level within the shire. When costuming
        and "authenticity" comes up almost always there is someone saying woman
        didn't wear underwear and the proof is the Du Berry illumination of a winter
        month with two folks by the fire. My argument with the illumination is that
        it also shows that the man is not wearing any underwear either.
        I find their argument to be broad brushing and weak. Though underwear is not
        at the top of my research list I do like to keep an eye out for any info
        that crosses my path on the subject.

        De

        -----Original Message-----
        How can I put this delicately, having camped with tight sleeves and
        layered long skirts, there can be "logistics" issues that arise with
        the addition of underpants. This is to say, if you want to wear them,
        in any form, tell your shire to stop worrying what is your own private
        business. There is no reason for anyone other than whom you share that
        personal information with should even know.

        Donata
      • Isabella D'Angelo
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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          ....Just checking to see if this even went through since everyone seems to be arguing over theories rather than substance....

          --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Isabella D'Angelo" <isabelladangelo@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/kurzweil/mai7.htm
          >
          > The painting is MUCH larger than this and not everyone has underwear on but all the women do wear hats or otherwise have their head covered. This is German but I think it goes to the heart of the argument.
          >
          > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extdraw3.htm
          >
          > Of course, there are always the linen drawers for Italian. I'm trying to find that excerpt (very early 1600's, I think) where a traveler to Italian states that even the nuns wear long underwear.
          >
          > http://muckley.us/1386/clothing-men-underwear-2-camille.JPG
          >
          > This one it's hard to see. Look at the ladies sheer chemise and you'll see the underwear beneath it.
          >
          > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_059.png
          >
          > These are lepers but you can see the two women and the man. The two women indicated by their hats. Although the lady closest to us only has her apron to cover her, the lady on the other side is also wearing underwear.
          >
        • Brad Moore
          Isabella, it did indeed go through, but I would like to have more information on the images themselves.  I don t read german, and am not familiar with most
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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            Isabella, it did indeed go through, but I would like to have more information on
            the images themselves.  I don't read german, and am not familiar with most of
            them.  I would like to be able to see the entire work, to gauge them for
            allegory vs. actual garments.  They are certainly the most convincing I have
            seen so far.  I tend to agree with Kathy in one of the previous emails, who
            mentions the lepers in the Jost Amman woodcut, however.  I've read a number of
            articles concerning gender and garments, its what my thesis is covering.  I
            don't want to be hasty either way.  For me, I tend to be a skeptic regarding any
            sort of documentation, until I see some really solid evidence.

             Brad Moore 

            "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a
            merrier world."
            - J.R.R. Tolkien





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          • otsisto
            Does anyone here have experience in translating written English into 1500s or earlier written Italian? De
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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              Does anyone here have experience in translating written English into 1500s or earlier written Italian?

              De
            • Gabriella Intemann
              I have never done it but I was born in Italy and lived there until I was 28 years old. I have studied La Divina Commedia of Dante Alighieri (had to read and
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 1 7:50 AM
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                I have never done it but I was born in Italy and lived there until I was 28
                years old. I have studied La Divina Commedia of Dante Alighieri (had to read
                and interpreter all 3 books) Boccaccio Decamerone and Macchiavelli Il Principe.
                I should be able to do it. If you don't find anybody with experience I'll be
                happy to do it for you.

                Gabriella




                ________________________________
                From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
                To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:42:36 PM
                Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] OT need a translation


                Does anyone here have experience in translating written English into 1500s or
                earlier written Italian?


                De







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ivinian
                Incidentally, if you like Venetian shoes, I ran into this the other day while researching something entirely else, and oh boy I got completely sidetracked just
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 30 2:28 PM
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                  Incidentally, if you like Venetian shoes, I ran into this the other day while researching something entirely else, and oh boy I got completely sidetracked just fooling around with them:

                  http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/qtvr_shoes.html

                  They're also called pianelle if that helps anybody looking for them. You're right; I don't ever remember hearing them called chopines either.

                  Vangelista

                  --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <dakea@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > One thing I always wondered was why in the Italian language costuming books
                  > by experts such as Levi-Pisetsky the name chopine is never mentioned...
                  > Venitian high platform shoes are always called zoccolo.. or plural
                  > zoccoli...
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