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bodice dilemma

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  • Mary Connelly
    Good Evening! I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on appearance... With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic Italian gown that I am working on,
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 10, 2003
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      Good Evening!

      I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on appearance...
      With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic Italian gown that I am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in front of the arm pit. It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here. to eliminate this, can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I am going to be adding a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the problem area. Everything else is perfect, though. I just don't want to cut into the velveteen until I have the mock-up completed properly.

      Thank you all so much for all your help!

      Francesca



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cilean_69
      This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when you redo the piece? I mean once you have taken the stitches out and then redone the whole armscrye again? Does
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 10, 2003
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        This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when you redo the piece?
        I mean once you have taken the stitches out and then redone the whole
        armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too big or because your
        fabric is bunched?


        Cilean


        --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Mary
        Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
        > Good Evening!
        >
        > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on appearance...
        > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic Italian gown that I
        am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in front of the arm pit.
        It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here. to eliminate this,
        can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I am going to be adding
        a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the problem area. Everything
        else is perfect, though. I just don't want to cut into the velveteen
        until I have the mock-up completed properly.
        >
        > Thank you all so much for all your help!
        >
        > Francesca
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Holly Frantz
        It might bulge because the angle of the shoulder/armhole is wrong. You d get that kind of bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it goes across the
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 11, 2003
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          It might bulge because the angle of the
          shoulder/armhole is wrong. You'd get that kind of
          bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it goes
          across the shoulder and attached it to the back at a
          90 degree angle. That tends to create a bulge. You'd
          either need to reattach the shoulder to the back at a
          different angle or recut the entire line of the bodice
          shoulder.

          Niccola

          --- Cilean_69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          > This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when you
          > redo the piece?
          > I mean once you have taken the stitches out and then
          > redone the whole
          > armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too big
          > or because your
          > fabric is bunched?
          >
          >
          > Cilean
          >
          >
          > --- In
          > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
          > "Mary
          > Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
          > > Good Evening!
          > >
          > > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on
          > appearance...
          > > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic
          > Italian gown that I
          > am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in front
          > of the arm pit.
          > It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here. to
          > eliminate this,
          > can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I am
          > going to be adding
          > a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the problem
          > area. Everything
          > else is perfect, though. I just don't want to cut
          > into the velveteen
          > until I have the mock-up completed properly.
          > >
          > > Thank you all so much for all your help!
          > >
          > > Francesca
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >
          Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Mary Connelly
          This is exactly what I did. Thanks! I will make a second mock up and see how a slightly different angle does for me. It is VERY squared off at this time.
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 11, 2003
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            This is exactly what I did. Thanks! I will make a second mock up and see how a slightly different angle does for me. It is VERY squared off at this time. Good thing I had already planned to use the mock up in another way completely! (it is destined to be cut apart into small pieces for a craft project)

            Thank you so much! I will learn to make my own bodice at some point.. this was my first try and aside from being too straight, it fit well.

            Thanks again!

            Francesca


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Holly Frantz
            To: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: bodice dilemma


            It might bulge because the angle of the
            shoulder/armhole is wrong. You'd get that kind of
            bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it goes
            across the shoulder and attached it to the back at a
            90 degree angle. That tends to create a bulge. You'd
            either need to reattach the shoulder to the back at a
            different angle or recut the entire line of the bodice
            shoulder.

            Niccola

            --- Cilean_69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when you
            > redo the piece?
            > I mean once you have taken the stitches out and then
            > redone the whole
            > armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too big
            > or because your
            > fabric is bunched?
            >
            >
            > Cilean
            >
            >
            > --- In
            > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
            > "Mary
            > Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
            > > Good Evening!
            > >
            > > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on
            > appearance...
            > > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic
            > Italian gown that I
            > am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in front
            > of the arm pit.
            > It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here. to
            > eliminate this,
            > can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I am
            > going to be adding
            > a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the problem
            > area. Everything
            > else is perfect, though. I just don't want to cut
            > into the velveteen
            > until I have the mock-up completed properly.
            > >
            > > Thank you all so much for all your help!
            > >
            > > Francesca
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >
            Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Holly Frantz
            Glad to help. I ve made the same mistake, too. I think you mentioned you had a copy of _Patterns of Fashion_? You might look at some of the diagrams in that
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 11, 2003
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              Glad to help. I've made the same mistake, too.

              I think you mentioned you had a copy of _Patterns of
              Fashion_? You might look at some of the diagrams in
              that book to get an idea as to the angle.

              Niccola

              --- Mary Connelly <bunnymom@...> wrote:
              > This is exactly what I did. Thanks! I will make a
              > second mock up and see how a slightly different
              > angle does for me. It is VERY squared off at this
              > time. Good thing I had already planned to use the
              > mock up in another way completely! (it is destined
              > to be cut apart into small pieces for a craft
              > project)
              >
              > Thank you so much! I will learn to make my own
              > bodice at some point.. this was my first try and
              > aside from being too straight, it fit well.
              >
              > Thanks again!
              >
              > Francesca
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Holly Frantz
              > To: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:38 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re:
              > bodice dilemma
              >
              >
              > It might bulge because the angle of the
              > shoulder/armhole is wrong. You'd get that kind of
              > bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it
              > goes
              > across the shoulder and attached it to the back at
              > a
              > 90 degree angle. That tends to create a bulge.
              > You'd
              > either need to reattach the shoulder to the back
              > at a
              > different angle or recut the entire line of the
              > bodice
              > shoulder.
              >
              > Niccola
              >
              > --- Cilean_69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > > This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when
              > you
              > > redo the piece?
              > > I mean once you have taken the stitches out and
              > then
              > > redone the whole
              > > armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too
              > big
              > > or because your
              > > fabric is bunched?
              > >
              > >
              > > Cilean
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In
              > > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "Mary
              > > Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
              > > > Good Evening!
              > > >
              > > > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact
              > on
              > > appearance...
              > > > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic
              > > Italian gown that I
              > > am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in
              > front
              > > of the arm pit.
              > > It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here.
              > to
              > > eliminate this,
              > > can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I
              > am
              > > going to be adding
              > > a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the
              > problem
              > > area. Everything
              > > else is perfect, though. I just don't want to
              > cut
              > > into the velveteen
              > > until I have the mock-up completed properly.
              > > >
              > > > Thank you all so much for all your help!
              > > >
              > > > Francesca
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > > removed]
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              > to:
              > >
              >
              >
              Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >
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              >
              >
            • ivinian
              I have this same problem. So it is caused by putting the shoulders on at a 90-degree angle? I ve noticed that other bodices have the shoulders jutting off at
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                I have this same problem. So it is caused by putting the shoulders on
                at a 90-degree angle? I've noticed that other bodices have the
                shoulders jutting off at the WEIRDEST angle (I'm working on a bodice
                like that now). Is that why they do that? It looks like it'll fall
                clean off my body.

                Thanks for any help you can give! These lists are such lifesavers.

                Vangelista

                --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Holly Frantz
                <hefrantz@y...> wrote:
                > It might bulge because the angle of the
                > shoulder/armhole is wrong. You'd get that kind of
                > bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it goes
                > across the shoulder and attached it to the back at a
                > 90 degree angle. That tends to create a bulge. You'd
                > either need to reattach the shoulder to the back at a
                > different angle or recut the entire line of the bodice
                > shoulder.
                >
                > Niccola
                >
                > --- Cilean_69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                > > This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when you
                > > redo the piece?
                > > I mean once you have taken the stitches out and then
                > > redone the whole
                > > armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too big
                > > or because your
                > > fabric is bunched?
                > >
                > >
                > > Cilean
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In
                > > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "Mary
                > > Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
                > > > Good Evening!
                > > >
                > > > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact on
                > > appearance...
                > > > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic
                > > Italian gown that I
                > > am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in front
                > > of the arm pit.
                > > It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here. to
                > > eliminate this,
                > > can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I am
                > > going to be adding
                > > a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the problem
                > > area. Everything
                > > else is perfect, though. I just don't want to cut
                > > into the velveteen
                > > until I have the mock-up completed properly.
                > > >
                > > > Thank you all so much for all your help!
                > > >
                > > > Francesca
              • Holly Frantz
                I ll try to do some primitive drawings here but I m not sure how clear these will be. This would be the back with angled shoulder seams. They can be angled
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                  I'll try to do some primitive drawings here but I'm
                  not sure how clear these will be.

                  This would be the back with angled shoulder seams.
                  They can be angled back and attached to a straight
                  seam across the back. The angle isn't great but it's
                  enough.

                  \_\_____/_/
                  | |
                  | |

                  Or you could attach the straps at a greater angle in
                  the back.


                  \ \_____/ /
                  \/ \/
                  | |

                  I'd take a picture of the seams of one of my most
                  recent dresses but I can't find what the husband did
                  with the digital camera.

                  As for documentation, I've never been able to find
                  anything that even hinted at shoulder seams across the
                  top of the shoulder (where we wear them in modern
                  times). You also don't see anything showing the
                  shoulder seams toward the back but since some of the
                  artists are nice enough to put in side seams, you have
                  to assume that if the shoulder seams were visible,
                  they'd be shown, too. Also, if you take the Eleanor
                  of Toledo dress as a "benchmark" in time, it will help
                  you place your seams.

                  Niccola

                  --- ivinian <ivinian@...> wrote:
                  > I have this same problem. So it is caused by putting
                  > the shoulders on
                  > at a 90-degree angle? I've noticed that other
                  > bodices have the
                  > shoulders jutting off at the WEIRDEST angle (I'm
                  > working on a bodice
                  > like that now). Is that why they do that? It looks
                  > like it'll fall
                  > clean off my body.
                  >
                  > Thanks for any help you can give! These lists are
                  > such lifesavers.
                  >
                  > Vangelista
                  >
                  > --- In
                  > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
                  > Holly Frantz
                  > <hefrantz@y...> wrote:
                  > > It might bulge because the angle of the
                  > > shoulder/armhole is wrong. You'd get that kind of
                  > > bulge if you had cut the neckline straight as it
                  > goes
                  > > across the shoulder and attached it to the back at
                  > a
                  > > 90 degree angle. That tends to create a bulge.
                  > You'd
                  > > either need to reattach the shoulder to the back
                  > at a
                  > > different angle or recut the entire line of the
                  > bodice
                  > > shoulder.
                  > >
                  > > Niccola
                  > >
                  > > --- Cilean_69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  > > > This is your toile? Does the bulge come out when
                  > you
                  > > > redo the piece?
                  > > > I mean once you have taken the stitches out and
                  > then
                  > > > redone the whole
                  > > > armscrye again? Does it bulge because it is too
                  > big
                  > > > or because your
                  > > > fabric is bunched?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Cilean
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In
                  > > > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > "Mary
                  > > > Connelly" <bunnymom@e...> wrote:
                  > > > > Good Evening!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have a tiny problem that has a major impact
                  > on
                  > > > appearance...
                  > > > > With my bodice mock-up for my Venetian/generic
                  > > > Italian gown that I
                  > > > am working on, I have a weird bulge thing in
                  > front
                  > > > of the arm pit.
                  > > > It is as if there is a bit of extra fabric here.
                  > to
                  > > > eliminate this,
                  > > > can I take a tuck sort of under the arm pit? I
                  > am
                  > > > going to be adding
                  > > > a thin braid, or else I would tuck at the
                  > problem
                  > > > area. Everything
                  > > > else is perfect, though. I just don't want to
                  > cut
                  > > > into the velveteen
                  > > > until I have the mock-up completed properly.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thank you all so much for all your help!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Francesca
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >
                  Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Denise Robello
                  Hi, I m assuming you re refering to shoulder seams in women s clothes since we re talking about bodice construction. My memory is rusty, but I think you can
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                    Hi,

                    I'm assuming you're refering to shoulder seams in women's clothes
                    since we're talking about bodice construction.

                    My memory is rusty, but I think you can see a shoulder seam at the
                    top of the shoulder in "Lucretzia" by Lorenzo Lotta (1530-ish). Or
                    perhaps this is earlier in period than you were considering. I didn't
                    follow the thread back far enough to verify the time period.

                    I believe you can find German/Northern art that shows a shoulder seam
                    towards the back of the body. It's not something I've spent recent
                    time looking for, but I have some books on Durer if anyone's really
                    interested. However, if you're going to strictly document it as an
                    Italian fashion, that doesn't do you much good unless you do some
                    around-about explanation for why you've done it that way.

                    I did the "back shoulder seam" on one dress when I was making clothes
                    for 30-year. I made a wool Florentine; it has the contrasting neck
                    band, the bodice is interlined with canvas, and the entire outfit is
                    lined, including the skirt (not a warm-weather outfit!). What I found
                    was that the bulk of the seams were moved off my shoulder, which
                    prevented them from being pressed into my shoulders by the weight of
                    the garment. It was actually comfortable.

                    I was talking with someone about cut and all that. We were looking at
                    1460's Flemish stuff and some 16th c. German stuff which is raglan
                    cut. I was thinking back to some of the 16th c. Italian stuff where
                    it looks like the sitter has some odd shaped shoulder caps that don't
                    go around the arm like short sleeves. I was starting to wonder if
                    this might be an indication of a similar raglan treatment. It makes
                    me think that with a raglan approach you could make a whole lot of
                    inconvenient bulges and so forth go away and get a closer fit. I
                    haven't seen any seams in art that would support this for the Italian
                    fashions, but I was wondering if anyone out there has experimented
                    with this sort of thing or may have seen something that could support
                    that technique.

                    Ascelin

                    --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Holly Frantz
                    <hefrantz@y...> wrote:
                    > As for documentation, I've never been able to find
                    > anything that even hinted at shoulder seams across the
                    > top of the shoulder (where we wear them in modern
                    > times). You also don't see anything showing the
                    > shoulder seams toward the back but since some of the
                    > artists are nice enough to put in side seams, you have
                    > to assume that if the shoulder seams were visible,
                    > they'd be shown, too. Also, if you take the Eleanor
                    > of Toledo dress as a "benchmark" in time, it will help
                    > you place your seams.
                    >
                    > Niccola
                    >
                  • Holly Frantz
                    There s just not a lot out there and what we do see generally implies a shoulder seem toward the back. The problem with documentation is that there isn t
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                      There's just not a lot out there and what we do see
                      generally implies a shoulder seem toward the back.
                      The problem with documentation is that there isn't
                      really "proof" for anything pre-1500 so either you
                      have to justify seams at the mid-shoulder or you have
                      to justify shoulder seams toward the back (I say
                      pre-1500 b/c 1470-1500 is the time period I've
                      researched). I'd rather justify the shoulder seams
                      toward the back b/c (as you pointed out) it does solve
                      a lot of fitting problems and produces the nice line
                      you see in portraits.

                      Niccola

                      --- Denise Robello <drobello@...> wrote:
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > I'm assuming you're refering to shoulder seams in
                      > women's clothes
                      > since we're talking about bodice construction.
                      >
                      > My memory is rusty, but I think you can see a
                      > shoulder seam at the
                      > top of the shoulder in "Lucretzia" by Lorenzo Lotta
                      > (1530-ish). Or
                      > perhaps this is earlier in period than you were
                      > considering. I didn't
                      > follow the thread back far enough to verify the time
                      > period.
                      >
                      > I believe you can find German/Northern art that
                      > shows a shoulder seam
                      > towards the back of the body. It's not something
                      > I've spent recent
                      > time looking for, but I have some books on Durer if
                      > anyone's really
                      > interested. However, if you're going to strictly
                      > document it as an
                      > Italian fashion, that doesn't do you much good
                      > unless you do some
                      > around-about explanation for why you've done it that
                      > way.
                      >
                      > I did the "back shoulder seam" on one dress when I
                      > was making clothes
                      > for 30-year. I made a wool Florentine; it has the
                      > contrasting neck
                      > band, the bodice is interlined with canvas, and the
                      > entire outfit is
                      > lined, including the skirt (not a warm-weather
                      > outfit!). What I found
                      > was that the bulk of the seams were moved off my
                      > shoulder, which
                      > prevented them from being pressed into my shoulders
                      > by the weight of
                      > the garment. It was actually comfortable.
                      >
                      > I was talking with someone about cut and all that.
                      > We were looking at
                      > 1460's Flemish stuff and some 16th c. German stuff
                      > which is raglan
                      > cut. I was thinking back to some of the 16th c.
                      > Italian stuff where
                      > it looks like the sitter has some odd shaped
                      > shoulder caps that don't
                      > go around the arm like short sleeves. I was starting
                      > to wonder if
                      > this might be an indication of a similar raglan
                      > treatment. It makes
                      > me think that with a raglan approach you could make
                      > a whole lot of
                      > inconvenient bulges and so forth go away and get a
                      > closer fit. I
                      > haven't seen any seams in art that would support
                      > this for the Italian
                      > fashions, but I was wondering if anyone out there
                      > has experimented
                      > with this sort of thing or may have seen something
                      > that could support
                      > that technique.
                      >
                      > Ascelin
                      >
                      > --- In
                      > Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
                      > Holly Frantz
                      > <hefrantz@y...> wrote:
                      > > As for documentation, I've never been able to find
                      > > anything that even hinted at shoulder seams across
                      > the
                      > > top of the shoulder (where we wear them in modern
                      > > times). You also don't see anything showing the
                      > > shoulder seams toward the back but since some of
                      > the
                      > > artists are nice enough to put in side seams, you
                      > have
                      > > to assume that if the shoulder seams were visible,
                      > > they'd be shown, too. Also, if you take the
                      > Eleanor
                      > > of Toledo dress as a "benchmark" in time, it will
                      > help
                      > > you place your seams.
                      > >
                      > > Niccola
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >
                      Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jennifer Thompson
                      ... I see a seam at the top of the shoulder of this gown: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor15.html And I know of several others,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                        >As for documentation, I've never been able to find
                        >anything that even hinted at shoulder seams across the
                        >top of the shoulder (where we wear them in modern
                        >times).

                        I see a seam at the top of the shoulder of this gown:
                        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor15.html
                        And I know of several others, but it might take some digging to find
                        pictures online.


                        >You also don't see anything showing the
                        >shoulder seams toward the back but since some of the
                        >artists are nice enough to put in side seams, you have
                        >to assume that if the shoulder seams were visible,
                        >they'd be shown, too. Also, if you take the Eleanor
                        >of Toledo dress as a "benchmark" in time, it will help
                        >you place your seams.

                        Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but the Eleanora
                        bodice has has shoulder seams "toward the back":
                        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/ele2.jpg and
                        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/ele1.jpg
                        My research suggests that this would be the most typical placement for a
                        seam. But back to the original topic that sparked this conversation... the
                        angle of the straps can vary widely depending on the style of gown and shape
                        of your shoulders and bust. They can go from the almost off the shoulder
                        gowns of early 16th c. Florence, to actually being cut on the reverse angle
                        (slanted inward like they would be pointed toward your neck) for low-cut
                        Venetian styles. The best thing to do is just make a mock-up and
                        experiment a bit to see what works best for you. If you just take a little
                        tuck on the toile where the puckers show up, you can see the most suitable
                        angle when you lay the pattern piece out flat again. At least, that's been
                        my experience with it! ;-)

                        -jen

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                      • Holly Frantz
                        I think you are misunderstanding what I m saying b/c I agree with your statement My research suggests that this would be the most typical placement for a
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
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                          I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying b/c I
                          agree with your statement "My research suggests that
                          this would be the most typical placement for a seam."
                          even though we're researching different time periods.
                          Somehow I got from your email that you thought I was
                          disagreeing with that.

                          Thanks for the picture of the shoulder seam. I've
                          never seen that one before, probably b/c it's a bit
                          out of my time period.

                          --- Jennifer Thompson <blue_jefiner@...>
                          wrote:
                          > >As for documentation, I've never been able to find
                          > >anything that even hinted at shoulder seams across
                          > the
                          > >top of the shoulder (where we wear them in modern
                          > >times).
                          >
                          > I see a seam at the top of the shoulder of this
                          > gown:
                          >
                          http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor15.html
                          > And I know of several others, but it might take some
                          > digging to find
                          > pictures online.
                          >
                          >
                          > >You also don't see anything showing the
                          > >shoulder seams toward the back but since some of
                          > the
                          > >artists are nice enough to put in side seams, you
                          > have
                          > >to assume that if the shoulder seams were visible,
                          > >they'd be shown, too. Also, if you take the
                          > Eleanor
                          > >of Toledo dress as a "benchmark" in time, it will
                          > help
                          > >you place your seams.
                          >
                          > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are trying
                          > to say, but the Eleanora
                          > bodice has has shoulder seams "toward the back":
                          >
                          http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/ele2.jpg
                          > and
                          >
                          http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/ele1.jpg
                          > My research suggests that this would be the most
                          > typical placement for a
                          > seam. But back to the original topic that sparked
                          > this conversation... the
                          > angle of the straps can vary widely depending on the
                          > style of gown and shape
                          > of your shoulders and bust. They can go from the
                          > almost off the shoulder
                          > gowns of early 16th c. Florence, to actually being
                          > cut on the reverse angle
                          > (slanted inward like they would be pointed toward
                          > your neck) for low-cut
                          > Venetian styles. The best thing to do is just make
                          > a mock-up and
                          > experiment a bit to see what works best for you. If
                          > you just take a little
                          > tuck on the toile where the puckers show up, you can
                          > see the most suitable
                          > angle when you lay the pattern piece out flat again.
                          > At least, that's been
                          > my experience with it! ;-)
                          >
                          > -jen
                          >
                          >
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