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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: arabesque gown

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  • otsisto
    First time I ve seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don t know how to
    Message 1 of 8 , May 24, 2010
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      First time I've seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of
      Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don't know
      how to finagle the pic. to here.
      worth a shot
      http://www.bildindex.de/?+pkunstler:bronzino%20+pkunstler:agnolo#|home
      #6, click on pic to enlarge.
      1. Sleeves appear to be ribbon with a delicate pattern to them with the
      vertical seam embroidered or lace trim.
      2. The belt is alternating "floral" designs like a cluster of 4 pearls to
      create a 4 petaled flower and some with a small gem surrounded by pearls.
      What you are seeing at the junction of the belt is not a large faceted
      rubies but pearl clusters.
      3. Pattern, is either embroidered or appliquéd. There is a gold trim around
      the edge and the flowers have gold detailing. Coming out of the flowers
      (stamens?) are 5 slightly graduating pearls, plus accents here and there
      with pearls. gold ball buttons with loops. What I first thought was a part
      of the closer but is only a part of the design is the red bars at the
      closer. It seems that the creator of the bodice incorporated the red
      vertical line of the closer into the scroll design by adding connection
      bars.

      This site to some extent has a close up (scroll down)
      http://purplefiles.net/katerina/garb/diaries/Kats%20Dutch%20Cloak.html

      De

      -----Original Message-----
      >
      > so, for quite some time now I've been drooling over this gown
      >
      > http://renaissanceitaly.net/diary/arabesqued.htm
      >
      > There's another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body
      of Bella's dress Diary. I'm going about the dress's construction a different
      way than Bella, and may from time to time ask for opinions.
      >
      > So, I'm posting to ask for opinions. First, on the belt she is wearing,
      stones ruby? On the color pic it appeared to me to be ruby with the top face
      reflecting light. Faceted as to me they appear too angular to be plain
      cabochon, opinions? Shapes of each of the stones on the bottom set? Asking,
      as it appears to me to perhaps be a square cut, lightly faceted in the
      center and surrounded by round, lightly faceted stones. Going up the belt...
      round, faceted alternating with sets of four pearls. What I would not give
      for a crisp, clear close up, lol.
      >
      > PS. I'm not aiming for an EXACT copy of the dress, in fact, I'd decided to
      alter the underdress to make it more pleasing to my eye, but my eye already
      loves the overdress. The underdress will still be white and gold, but I
      don't care for how the skirt trim is laid out, and I kept stripes on the
      sleeves, but changed them to embroidered vs solid. But I have to do
      something to stand next to my friend Tiffany's heavily beaded English gown
      and not be ignored.....
    • Brandy
      Thanks to both of you. After reading both of yours, I looked again and agree with your thoughts.
      Message 2 of 8 , May 24, 2010
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        Thanks to both of you. After reading both of yours, I looked again and agree with your thoughts.


        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
        >
        > First time I've seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of
        > Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don't know
        > how to finagle the pic. to here.
        > worth a shot
        > http://www.bildindex.de/?+pkunstler:bronzino%20+pkunstler:agnolo#|home
        > #6, click on pic to enlarge.
        > 1. Sleeves appear to be ribbon with a delicate pattern to them with the
        > vertical seam embroidered or lace trim.
        > 2. The belt is alternating "floral" designs like a cluster of 4 pearls to
        > create a 4 petaled flower and some with a small gem surrounded by pearls.
        > What you are seeing at the junction of the belt is not a large faceted
        > rubies but pearl clusters.
        > 3. Pattern, is either embroidered or appliquéd. There is a gold trim around
        > the edge and the flowers have gold detailing. Coming out of the flowers
        > (stamens?) are 5 slightly graduating pearls, plus accents here and there
        > with pearls. gold ball buttons with loops. What I first thought was a part
        > of the closer but is only a part of the design is the red bars at the
        > closer. It seems that the creator of the bodice incorporated the red
        > vertical line of the closer into the scroll design by adding connection
        > bars.
        >
        > This site to some extent has a close up (scroll down)
        > http://purplefiles.net/katerina/garb/diaries/Kats%20Dutch%20Cloak.html
        >
        > De
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > >
        > > so, for quite some time now I've been drooling over this gown
        > >
        > > http://renaissanceitaly.net/diary/arabesqued.htm
        > >
        > > There's another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body
        > of Bella's dress Diary. I'm going about the dress's construction a different
        > way than Bella, and may from time to time ask for opinions.
        > >
        > > So, I'm posting to ask for opinions. First, on the belt she is wearing,
        > stones ruby? On the color pic it appeared to me to be ruby with the top face
        > reflecting light. Faceted as to me they appear too angular to be plain
        > cabochon, opinions? Shapes of each of the stones on the bottom set? Asking,
        > as it appears to me to perhaps be a square cut, lightly faceted in the
        > center and surrounded by round, lightly faceted stones. Going up the belt...
        > round, faceted alternating with sets of four pearls. What I would not give
        > for a crisp, clear close up, lol.
        > >
        > > PS. I'm not aiming for an EXACT copy of the dress, in fact, I'd decided to
        > alter the underdress to make it more pleasing to my eye, but my eye already
        > loves the overdress. The underdress will still be white and gold, but I
        > don't care for how the skirt trim is laid out, and I kept stripes on the
        > sleeves, but changed them to embroidered vs solid. But I have to do
        > something to stand next to my friend Tiffany's heavily beaded English gown
        > and not be ignored.....
        >
      • otsisto
        This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions. http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t What do you think? De
        Message 3 of 8 , May 25, 2010
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          This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.

          http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t

          What do you think?

          De
        • Brandy
          ... could they be embroidered onto say a sheer fine silk gauze? Asking, as most of the methods I ve seen for putting lacework into instead of on the edge of a
          Message 4 of 8 , May 25, 2010
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            --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
            >
            > This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t
            >
            > What do you think?
            >
            > De
            >
            could they be embroidered onto say a sheer fine silk gauze? Asking, as most of the methods I've seen for putting lacework into instead of on the edge of a fabric appears to leave voids. Just a guess, oh and I totally agree that it's on some kind of loose overgown as there is a piece of the medallion under baby Jesus arm where there is not undergown.

            JMHO....
          • Vanessa Harrison
            I would say that it is a design on the fabric of the dress such as a brocade/damask would have, rather than lace. In the early 1400 s they did not generally
            Message 5 of 8 , May 25, 2010
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              I would say that it is a design on the fabric of the dress such as a
              brocade/damask would have, rather than lace. In the early 1400's they
              did not generally have sheer/lace overdresses as we know them now as it
              was not the fashion - they wanted to show off their fabric not hide it.
              Having done extensive research in to the first quarter of that century
              and looked at subsequent quarters, there is no real evidence to suggest
              that they made lace large enough to do an overdress. In fact, lace
              didn't really make much of an appearance on clothing until early 1500's
              and even then it was really only edging - not full garments.

              The piece that looks sheer would possibly be a veil of some sort, but
              even her hair is wrong for that particular time period. I would hazard
              they have taken a dress of the time and added some allegorical elements
              to it to give the Madonna an angelic/saintly appearance.

              Just my thoughts anyway.

              Vanessa




              otsisto wrote:
              >
              > This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t
              >
              > What do you think?
              >
              > De
              >
              >
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