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Re: arabesque gown

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  • satinedelacourcel
    There s another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body of Bella s dress Diary. I m going about the dress s construction a different way than
    Message 1 of 8 , May 24, 2010
      There's another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body of Bella's dress Diary. I'm going about the dress's construction a different way than Bella, and may from time to time ask for opinions.
      >
      > So, I'm posting to ask for opinions. First, on the belt she is wearing, stones ruby? On the color pic it appeared to me to be ruby with the top face reflecting light. Faceted as to me they appear too angular to be plain cabochon, opinions? Shapes of each of the stones on the bottom set? Asking, as it appears to me to perhaps be a square cut, lightly faceted in the center and surrounded by round, lightly faceted stones. Going up the belt... round, faceted alternating with sets of four pearls. What I would not give for a crisp, clear close up, lol.

      Could be Ruby or Spinel which is often found in the same mines and may be mistaken for ruby. There was no distinction between the two until the 19th Century. Thought it is hard to tell in a painting

      I see sets of two pearls as well as sets of 4 Pearls going up the belt. The pearls are large venture a guess here as to 10-12mm in Size rounds to close to rounds either Fresh or Salt water both were used in period. Other shapes possibly Mabe' pearls set in the belt.

      As for cuts of Gemstones, my guess here for the big square looking one is possibly the "table cut", which has been around since the 1300's the result looks square on top of the stone.

      The possibly round faceted I would also guess may have been done in a single cut on the stone gives the "round" shape on top and angular facets.

      The Pictures of this portrait are quite Fuzzy or too small for me to to see clearly, these are my simple guesses.

      Good luck making this belt I am sure it will be beautiful!

      Cheers
      Ghadah
    • otsisto
      First time I ve seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don t know how to
      Message 2 of 8 , May 24, 2010
        First time I've seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of
        Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don't know
        how to finagle the pic. to here.
        worth a shot
        http://www.bildindex.de/?+pkunstler:bronzino%20+pkunstler:agnolo#|home
        #6, click on pic to enlarge.
        1. Sleeves appear to be ribbon with a delicate pattern to them with the
        vertical seam embroidered or lace trim.
        2. The belt is alternating "floral" designs like a cluster of 4 pearls to
        create a 4 petaled flower and some with a small gem surrounded by pearls.
        What you are seeing at the junction of the belt is not a large faceted
        rubies but pearl clusters.
        3. Pattern, is either embroidered or appliquéd. There is a gold trim around
        the edge and the flowers have gold detailing. Coming out of the flowers
        (stamens?) are 5 slightly graduating pearls, plus accents here and there
        with pearls. gold ball buttons with loops. What I first thought was a part
        of the closer but is only a part of the design is the red bars at the
        closer. It seems that the creator of the bodice incorporated the red
        vertical line of the closer into the scroll design by adding connection
        bars.

        This site to some extent has a close up (scroll down)
        http://purplefiles.net/katerina/garb/diaries/Kats%20Dutch%20Cloak.html

        De

        -----Original Message-----
        >
        > so, for quite some time now I've been drooling over this gown
        >
        > http://renaissanceitaly.net/diary/arabesqued.htm
        >
        > There's another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body
        of Bella's dress Diary. I'm going about the dress's construction a different
        way than Bella, and may from time to time ask for opinions.
        >
        > So, I'm posting to ask for opinions. First, on the belt she is wearing,
        stones ruby? On the color pic it appeared to me to be ruby with the top face
        reflecting light. Faceted as to me they appear too angular to be plain
        cabochon, opinions? Shapes of each of the stones on the bottom set? Asking,
        as it appears to me to perhaps be a square cut, lightly faceted in the
        center and surrounded by round, lightly faceted stones. Going up the belt...
        round, faceted alternating with sets of four pearls. What I would not give
        for a crisp, clear close up, lol.
        >
        > PS. I'm not aiming for an EXACT copy of the dress, in fact, I'd decided to
        alter the underdress to make it more pleasing to my eye, but my eye already
        loves the overdress. The underdress will still be white and gold, but I
        don't care for how the skirt trim is laid out, and I kept stripes on the
        sleeves, but changed them to embroidered vs solid. But I have to do
        something to stand next to my friend Tiffany's heavily beaded English gown
        and not be ignored.....
      • Brandy
        Thanks to both of you. After reading both of yours, I looked again and agree with your thoughts.
        Message 3 of 8 , May 24, 2010
          Thanks to both of you. After reading both of yours, I looked again and agree with your thoughts.


          --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
          >
          > First time I've seen this post. The portrait is alleged to be Eleanore of
          > Toledo by Bronzino. The bildindex shows a bit larger pic. (sorry don't know
          > how to finagle the pic. to here.
          > worth a shot
          > http://www.bildindex.de/?+pkunstler:bronzino%20+pkunstler:agnolo#|home
          > #6, click on pic to enlarge.
          > 1. Sleeves appear to be ribbon with a delicate pattern to them with the
          > vertical seam embroidered or lace trim.
          > 2. The belt is alternating "floral" designs like a cluster of 4 pearls to
          > create a 4 petaled flower and some with a small gem surrounded by pearls.
          > What you are seeing at the junction of the belt is not a large faceted
          > rubies but pearl clusters.
          > 3. Pattern, is either embroidered or appliquéd. There is a gold trim around
          > the edge and the flowers have gold detailing. Coming out of the flowers
          > (stamens?) are 5 slightly graduating pearls, plus accents here and there
          > with pearls. gold ball buttons with loops. What I first thought was a part
          > of the closer but is only a part of the design is the red bars at the
          > closer. It seems that the creator of the bodice incorporated the red
          > vertical line of the closer into the scroll design by adding connection
          > bars.
          >
          > This site to some extent has a close up (scroll down)
          > http://purplefiles.net/katerina/garb/diaries/Kats%20Dutch%20Cloak.html
          >
          > De
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > >
          > > so, for quite some time now I've been drooling over this gown
          > >
          > > http://renaissanceitaly.net/diary/arabesqued.htm
          > >
          > > There's another black and white that to me is a touch crisper in the body
          > of Bella's dress Diary. I'm going about the dress's construction a different
          > way than Bella, and may from time to time ask for opinions.
          > >
          > > So, I'm posting to ask for opinions. First, on the belt she is wearing,
          > stones ruby? On the color pic it appeared to me to be ruby with the top face
          > reflecting light. Faceted as to me they appear too angular to be plain
          > cabochon, opinions? Shapes of each of the stones on the bottom set? Asking,
          > as it appears to me to perhaps be a square cut, lightly faceted in the
          > center and surrounded by round, lightly faceted stones. Going up the belt...
          > round, faceted alternating with sets of four pearls. What I would not give
          > for a crisp, clear close up, lol.
          > >
          > > PS. I'm not aiming for an EXACT copy of the dress, in fact, I'd decided to
          > alter the underdress to make it more pleasing to my eye, but my eye already
          > loves the overdress. The underdress will still be white and gold, but I
          > don't care for how the skirt trim is laid out, and I kept stripes on the
          > sleeves, but changed them to embroidered vs solid. But I have to do
          > something to stand next to my friend Tiffany's heavily beaded English gown
          > and not be ignored.....
          >
        • otsisto
          This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions. http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t What do you think? De
          Message 4 of 8 , May 25, 2010
            This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.

            http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t

            What do you think?

            De
          • Brandy
            ... could they be embroidered onto say a sheer fine silk gauze? Asking, as most of the methods I ve seen for putting lacework into instead of on the edge of a
            Message 5 of 8 , May 25, 2010
              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "otsisto" <otsisto@...> wrote:
              >
              > This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t
              >
              > What do you think?
              >
              > De
              >
              could they be embroidered onto say a sheer fine silk gauze? Asking, as most of the methods I've seen for putting lacework into instead of on the edge of a fabric appears to leave voids. Just a guess, oh and I totally agree that it's on some kind of loose overgown as there is a piece of the medallion under baby Jesus arm where there is not undergown.

              JMHO....
            • Vanessa Harrison
              I would say that it is a design on the fabric of the dress such as a brocade/damask would have, rather than lace. In the early 1400 s they did not generally
              Message 6 of 8 , May 25, 2010
                I would say that it is a design on the fabric of the dress such as a
                brocade/damask would have, rather than lace. In the early 1400's they
                did not generally have sheer/lace overdresses as we know them now as it
                was not the fashion - they wanted to show off their fabric not hide it.
                Having done extensive research in to the first quarter of that century
                and looked at subsequent quarters, there is no real evidence to suggest
                that they made lace large enough to do an overdress. In fact, lace
                didn't really make much of an appearance on clothing until early 1500's
                and even then it was really only edging - not full garments.

                The piece that looks sheer would possibly be a veil of some sort, but
                even her hair is wrong for that particular time period. I would hazard
                they have taken a dress of the time and added some allegorical elements
                to it to give the Madonna an angelic/saintly appearance.

                Just my thoughts anyway.

                Vanessa




                otsisto wrote:
                >
                > This seems to look like a sheer over gown with lace like medalions.
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/22lbu9t
                >
                > What do you think?
                >
                > De
                >
                >
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