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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] apron RE: fabric for giornea

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  • Bella
    From: otsisto Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] apron RE: fabric for giornea ... an apron.
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2010
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      From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
      Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] apron RE: fabric for giornea

      >>>I vaguely remember a conversation about it. The end verdict was that it was
      an apron.<<<



      I do remember discussing the aprons before, although I'm not sure that the conversation was about this particular picture. In this case I don't think it's an apron. The way I see it the brown is the very full skirt of the under-dress bulging out from beneath the opening of a black overdress.



      Bella




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • otsisto
      ... I do remember discussing the aprons before, although I m not sure that the conversation was about this particular picture. In this case I don t think it s
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2010
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        -----Original Message-----
        I do remember discussing the aprons before, although I'm not sure that the
        conversation was about this particular picture. In this case I don't think
        it's an apron. The way I see it the brown is the very full skirt of the
        under-dress bulging out from beneath the opening of a black overdress.



        Bella
        ***
        I would disagree.
        If you compare gowns with aprons vs. openings showing the under gown you
        will see that it compares closer to the apron.

        Apron
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg

        open to expose under gown/the opening is chevron shape
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg
        http://tinyurl.com/25jnugy
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/RelicOfTheCross.jpg

        gown
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg

        similar questionable skirt front
        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx3.JPG

        De
      • Bella
        I would disagree. If you compare gowns with aprons vs. openings showing the under gown you will see that it compares closer to the apron. Apron
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2010
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          I would disagree.
          If you compare gowns with aprons vs. openings showing the under gown you
          will see that it compares closer to the apron.

          Apron
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg

          open to expose under gown/the opening is chevron shape
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg
          http://tinyurl.com/25jnugy
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/RelicOfTheCross.jpg

          gown
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg

          similar questionable skirt front
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx3.JPG




          For ease of following the discussion, we are discussing this picture: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg

          De, I do agree that on first inspection the opening doesn't look quite right, mainly (to my mind) because her hand is in the way covering the junction of the black area and brown, which causes an odd appearance. However, there are several factors here that lead me to the theory that it's a skirt opening rather than an apron.

          First is that on the two images you very correctly named 'Apron' above, namely...
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg and http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg there is clear evidence that they are aprons: in the first you see ties at the side split in the apron, the differing treatments of the hems indicating the shapes of the garments. In the second image the side split is harder to see, but it is there - a wedge of green underskirt showing at the side from between two yellow layers (apron front and back). In both images the apron is trimmed at the lower edge with something. In the painting it appears to be braid. In the image under discussion neither trimming nor ties at the side can be seen.

          Secondly, another factor both aprons have in common is that they are _shorter_ than the dress beneath them. You can clearly see the dress beneath in both images you posted a link to above, but in the original images under discussion, we cannot. The brown bit goes all the way to the ground.

          And, crucially, in addition you will see in the two apron images that the edges of the apron are quite far apart - the side edge that we can see originates under the arm. However, in the image under discussion, the point of origin of _both_ of the lines between brown and black areas (the supposed apron) originates under her hand at the front - too narrow to be likened to the other two aprons, and indeed closer in width to an opening in the over-dress.

          Finally, the colour and location is a clue, because whilst not all over-dresses of this style were black, an awful lot of them were. Black was a very popular colour in Venice at the time, especially for men and older married ladies and specifically for clothes worn outside the house. Now, that's not to say that light coloured over-dresses were never worn outside. I am pretty sure they were, especially by younger ladies. But, as you see in this image: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg there are several ladies there wearing black over-dresses in the front-opening style. I wish I had more images of definitive apron-like over garments to say with any certainty, but my theory is that the style - the apron-like garment - was worn only at home, like the one of the two ladies on the terrace wears.

          Having said all that, it _is_ possible that I am barking up the completely wrong tree. :-)


          Bella




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • otsisto
          ... For ease of following the discussion, we are discussing this picture: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg De, I do agree that on
          Message 4 of 19 , May 2, 2010
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            -----Original Message-----
            For ease of following the discussion, we are discussing this picture:
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg

            De, I do agree that on first inspection the opening doesn't look quite
            right, mainly (to my mind) because her hand is in the way covering the
            junction of the black area and brown, which causes an odd appearance.
            However, there are several factors here that lead me to the theory that it's
            a skirt opening rather than an apron.

            First is that on the two images you very correctly named 'Apron' above,
            namely...
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg and
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg
            there is clear evidence that they are aprons: in the first you see ties at
            the side split in the apron, the differing treatments of the hems indicating
            the shapes of the garments. In the second image the side split is harder to
            see, but it is there - a wedge of green underskirt showing at the side from
            between two yellow layers (apron front and back). In both images the apron
            is trimmed at the lower edge with something. In the painting it appears to
            be braid. In the image under discussion neither trimming nor ties at the
            side can be seen.

            De: If you look at the bodice you see the neckline coming together so that
            if it was the under skirt showing through you would not see so much of the
            brown near the bodice as the openning would be similar to the paintings
            showing an split front skirts. If the line of the brown was coming down from
            her knuckles I would conceed the possibility that it was the full under
            skirt but it is nearer to the wrist. The tie might possibly be thin cord
            that may be hidden in the seam between the bodice and skirt. Note that in
            the ladies/courtesians painting the you do not see the "waist" cord/tie.

            <<<<Secondly, another factor both aprons have in common is that they are
            _shorter_ than the dress beneath them. You can clearly see the dress beneath
            in both images you posted a link to above, but in the original images under
            discussion, we cannot. The brown bit goes all the way to the ground. >>>>

            De: It may or may not go to the ground as there is a figure kneeling in
            front and the fabric of her cloak sufficiantly hides the hem so as to not be
            able to make a clear determination.
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.2.jpg

            <<<<And, crucially, in addition you will see in the two apron images that
            the edges of the apron are quite far apart - the side edge that we can see
            originates under the arm. However, in the image under discussion, the point
            of origin of _both_ of the lines between brown and black areas (the supposed
            apron) originates under her hand at the front - too narrow to be likened to
            the other two aprons, and indeed closer in width to an opening in the
            over-dress.>>>>

            De: I have seen narrow aprons like this in "Italian" pics. but I will have
            to search. For some reason I am thinking it is on some middle class women.
            Looking at the outfit in question, I am thinking that on her right the dark
            line could possibly be shadowing and that it could be like the courtesan
            apron that nearly goes around.

            Finally, the colour and location is a clue, because whilst not all
            over-dresses of this style were black, an awful lot of them were. Black was
            a very popular colour in Venice at the time, especially for men and older
            married ladies and specifically for clothes worn outside the house. Now,
            that's not to say that light coloured over-dresses were never worn outside.
            I am pretty sure they were, especially by younger ladies. But, as you see in
            this image:
            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg there
            are several ladies there wearing black over-dresses in the front-opening
            style. I wish I had more images of definitive apron-like over garments to
            say with any certainty, but my theory is that the style - the apron-like
            garment - was worn only at home, like the one of the two ladies on the
            terrace wears.

            De: I agree that black was used with the open front overgown and by the cut
            of the bodice this woman probably is wearing one but the brown looks to be
            an apron.
            The courtesan painting show the women in gowns that are worn with chopines.
            The picture has always given me the impression that these two ladies had
            gone out and just returned, kicking of the shoes and relaxing before
            changing and doing the next order of the day. Because of the impression I
            would say that the apron or apron like skirt could have been a fashion
            accessory outside the home.
          • Brandy
            LOL, can we vote? If so, I m voting apron. I may be wrong, but it looks like a hint of black line at the bottom of the brown. But either way, I think it would
            Message 5 of 19 , May 2, 2010
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              LOL, can we vote?

              If so, I'm voting apron. I may be wrong, but it looks like a hint of black line at the bottom of the brown. But either way, I think it would end up a stupendous addition to a wardrobe.
            • tom pahdea
              I do not know how others feel about the recent debate between apron and underskirt but I find it very helpful in learning more about garments used doing the
              Message 6 of 19 , May 2, 2010
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                I do not know how others feel about the recent debate between apron and underskirt but I find it very helpful in learning more about garments used doing the Renaissance.



                I am currently in the need for some suggestions concerning what costume would be appropriate developing a costume for a wealthy merchant with a shirt, doublet, jerkin and overcoat. I easily get confused looking at all the picture examples that can be seen on the internet including decorating the shirt with or without a collar, slashing, shoe and hat type and so forth.



                This website seems to have a predominance of female members that naturally would create costume for themselves or other female participants.



                Thank you for your recommendations.



                Tom.

                _________________________________________________________________
                The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
                http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5

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              • Brad Moore
                Tom, what time period are you looking at?  If you can narrow it down, I can make some suggestions.  I do primarily 1520-1565, but have done earlier and
                Message 7 of 19 , May 3, 2010
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                  Tom, what time period are you looking at?  If you can narrow it down, I can make some suggestions.  I do primarily 1520-1565, but have done earlier and later.
                   Brad Moore 

                  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                  - J.R.R. Tolkien




                  ________________________________
                  From: tom pahdea <tompahdea@...>
                  To: italian_renaissance_costuming@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 1:21:19 AM
                  Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Suggestons for male Renaissance costume

                   


                  I do not know how others feel about the recent debate between apron and underskirt but I find it very helpful in learning more about garments used doing the Renaissance.

                  I am currently in the need for some suggestions concerning what costume would be appropriate developing a costume for a wealthy merchant with a shirt, doublet, jerkin and overcoat. I easily get confused looking at all the picture examples that can be seen on the internet including decorating the shirt with or without a collar, slashing, shoe and hat type and so forth.

                  This website seems to have a predominance of female members that naturally would create costume for themselves or other female participants.

                  Thank you for your recommendations.

                  Tom.

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
                  http://www.windowsl ive.com/campaign /thenewbusy? tile=multicalend ar&ocid=PID28326 ::T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WM_HMP: 042010_5

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • beverlyazizi
                  I want to add something to the discussion. I took another look at some of the pictures in the wardrobe section of the Realm and I see a few more that have
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 3, 2010
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                    I want to add something to the discussion. I took another look at some of the pictures in the wardrobe section of the Realm and I see a few more that have what I believe to be "aprons". For example this Durer drawing:
                    http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/1495Durer2.jpg

                    and the Durer drawing someone else posted actually seems to have some kind of tie or attachment thingy to keep the apron in place.
                    Also a closer look at this one seems to show an apron type thing int he front of the gown as the color is a little different and the length seems to be different:
                    http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg

                    So i am thinking that there is a fair amount of reason to believe that there is an apron on the one in question. I would like to see more of the painting to see just what the context is. She does seem to be outside but it is the daytime, not the evening or a court event so maybe it is an apron.

                    Betsabea

                    --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would disagree.
                    > If you compare gowns with aprons vs. openings showing the under gown you
                    > will see that it compares closer to the apron.
                    >
                    > Apron
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg
                    >
                    > open to expose under gown/the opening is chevron shape
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg
                    > http://tinyurl.com/25jnugy
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/RelicOfTheCross.jpg
                    >
                    > gown
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg
                    >
                    > similar questionable skirt front
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx3.JPG
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > For ease of following the discussion, we are discussing this picture: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx1.jpg
                    >
                    > De, I do agree that on first inspection the opening doesn't look quite right, mainly (to my mind) because her hand is in the way covering the junction of the black area and brown, which causes an odd appearance. However, there are several factors here that lead me to the theory that it's a skirt opening rather than an apron.
                    >
                    > First is that on the two images you very correctly named 'Apron' above, namely...
                    > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg and http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg there is clear evidence that they are aprons: in the first you see ties at the side split in the apron, the differing treatments of the hems indicating the shapes of the garments. In the second image the side split is harder to see, but it is there - a wedge of green underskirt showing at the side from between two yellow layers (apron front and back). In both images the apron is trimmed at the lower edge with something. In the painting it appears to be braid. In the image under discussion neither trimming nor ties at the side can be seen.
                    >
                    > Secondly, another factor both aprons have in common is that they are _shorter_ than the dress beneath them. You can clearly see the dress beneath in both images you posted a link to above, but in the original images under discussion, we cannot. The brown bit goes all the way to the ground.
                    >
                    > And, crucially, in addition you will see in the two apron images that the edges of the apron are quite far apart - the side edge that we can see originates under the arm. However, in the image under discussion, the point of origin of _both_ of the lines between brown and black areas (the supposed apron) originates under her hand at the front - too narrow to be likened to the other two aprons, and indeed closer in width to an opening in the over-dress.
                    >
                    > Finally, the colour and location is a clue, because whilst not all over-dresses of this style were black, an awful lot of them were. Black was a very popular colour in Venice at the time, especially for men and older married ladies and specifically for clothes worn outside the house. Now, that's not to say that light coloured over-dresses were never worn outside. I am pretty sure they were, especially by younger ladies. But, as you see in this image: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Miraclecross2.jpg there are several ladies there wearing black over-dresses in the front-opening style. I wish I had more images of definitive apron-like over garments to say with any certainty, but my theory is that the style - the apron-like garment - was worn only at home, like the one of the two ladies on the terrace wears.
                    >
                    > Having said all that, it _is_ possible that I am barking up the completely wrong tree. :-)
                    >
                    >
                    > Bella
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • otsisto
                    ... I want to add something to the discussion. I took another look at some of the pictures in the wardrobe section of the Realm and I see a few more that
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 3, 2010
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                      -----Original Message-----
                      I want to add something to the discussion. I took another look at some of
                      the pictures in the wardrobe section of the Realm and I see a few more that
                      have what I believe to be "aprons". For example this Durer drawing:
                      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/1495Durer2.jpg

                      De: This isn't an apron it is an open front giornea with button closers.
                      Though of later period is similar closers to the above gown.
                      http://tinyurl.com/22k6eos
                      Also, the length is because she has her train tucked up in back. The shading
                      does give a false impression of an apron.


                      <<<<Also a closer look at this one seems to show an apron type thing int he
                      front of the gown as the color is a little different and the length seems to
                      be different:
                      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg

                      De: Strange I have not really looked at this pic real well and thought it to
                      be one color outfit with a cloak/mantle. It does appear that she has a floor
                      length apron on. And that either the material of the gown is shot material
                      or the skirt and bodice are of two different colors.
                      My monitor is showing a chocolate brown apron, a blue/gray/white skirt, a
                      blue sleeve and a blue/black bodice.
                    • Bella
                      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg De: Strange I have not really looked at this pic real well and thought it to be one
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3, 2010
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                        http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg

                        De: Strange I have not really looked at this pic real well and thought it to
                        be one color outfit with a cloak/mantle. It does appear that she has a floor
                        length apron on. And that either the material of the gown is shot material
                        or the skirt and bodice are of two different colors.
                        My monitor is showing a chocolate brown apron, a blue/gray/white skirt, a
                        blue sleeve and a blue/black bodice.<<<<<


                        Pity the bodice and front of the top half of the skirt is so much in shadow that it prevents us from seeing what's going on there. It's not a blue/black bodice - the light is coming from behind her, her chest in in deep shadow. You can see the same effect on her sleeve where the front of the arm/sleeve looks black and the back of it looks blue. My impression of the rest is that it's a plain blue over-dress over a brocade under-dress (blue tones).


                        Bella




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Brandy
                        someday, they may clean some of these and restore their original colors and brightness. I m always amazed at details that come through after a professional
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 4, 2010
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                          someday, they may clean some of these and restore their original colors and brightness. I'm always amazed at details that come through after a professional cleaning and colors that were used when for years I always assumed people all dressed in drab fabrics and had gloomy backgrouds

                          --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg
                          >
                          > De: Strange I have not really looked at this pic real well and thought it to
                          > be one color outfit with a cloak/mantle. It does appear that she has a floor
                          > length apron on. And that either the material of the gown is shot material
                          > or the skirt and bodice are of two different colors.
                          > My monitor is showing a chocolate brown apron, a blue/gray/white skirt, a
                          > blue sleeve and a blue/black bodice.<<<<<
                          >
                          >
                          > Pity the bodice and front of the top half of the skirt is so much in shadow that it prevents us from seeing what's going on there. It's not a blue/black bodice - the light is coming from behind her, her chest in in deep shadow. You can see the same effect on her sleeve where the front of the arm/sleeve looks black and the back of it looks blue. My impression of the rest is that it's a plain blue over-dress over a brocade under-dress (blue tones).
                          >
                          >
                          > Bella
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • otsisto
                          ... http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg Pity the bodice and front of the top half of the skirt is so much in shadow that it
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 4, 2010
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg


                            Pity the bodice and front of the top half of the skirt is so much in shadow
                            that it prevents us from seeing what's going on there. It's not a blue/black
                            bodice - the light is coming from behind her, her chest in in deep shadow.
                            You can see the same effect on her sleeve where the front of the arm/sleeve
                            looks black and the back of it looks blue. My impression of the rest is that
                            it's a plain blue over-dress over a brocade under-dress (blue tones).


                            Bella

                            Yes I know it is in the shadows, my monitor indicates that the bodice is
                            possibly the same color as the upper sleeve.
                            I have my doubts about the brown being a skirt part of a giornea is because
                            there does not seem to be a back part of the skirt where logically a back
                            section would be showing. Therefore I am incline to believe that it is a
                            dark/medium colored bodice and sleeve with a light colored skirt and a brown
                            apron.

                            De
                          • Bella
                            From: otsisto Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: apron RE: fabric for giornea ...
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 5, 2010
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                              From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
                              Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: apron RE: fabric for giornea

                              -----Original Message-----
                              http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg

                              <snip> I have my doubts about the brown being a skirt part of a giornea is because
                              there does not seem to be a back part of the skirt where logically a back
                              section would be showing.<<<


                              Allow me to correct a misunderstanding I probably caused by not explaining myself well enough. I am not saying that the bit that you see as brown in the above picture, (which I see as a pattern of blue, brown and silver) is the skirt of a giornea (over-dress). I am saying it is the skirt of an under-dress (gamurra if you prefer), which is revealed through the opening in the over-dress. I am picturing a blue/brown/silver brocade under-dress, worn under the blue overdress with sleeves that is open at the front to reveal the skirt of the under-dress. Over that is a red cloak.


                              >>>Therefore I am incline to believe that it is a
                              dark/medium colored bodice and sleeve with a light colored skirt and a brown
                              apron.<<<<


                              We will have to agree to disagree then, because I am having a hard time remembering another example of an outer dress of this period and place that has a bodice of a different coloured bodice/sleeve to that of the skirt, and we know she is wearing outerwear because she is also wearing a cloak. We must remember that shadow, folds, and texture depicted by an artist may suggest things that aren't there, and all we can do is go by other, less ambiguous, depictions. In those we have, the aprons are both shorter and trimmed. For me that is weighty evidence. I am also thinking of the fact that we are discussing here not the typical apron that we see a little later, usually in white with embroidery, but an apron-like over-garment, which (from the two solid examples we have) have both a front _and_ a back.



                              Bella







                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Bella
                              ... Just an addition to my description above... what I am seeing here: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg (under the cloak
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 5, 2010
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                                >>>>>I am saying it is the skirt of an under-dress (gamurra if you prefer), which is revealed through the opening in the over-dress. I am picturing a blue/brown/silver brocade under-dress, worn under the blue overdress with sleeves that is open at the front to reveal the skirt of the under-dress.<snip><<<<<

                                Just an addition to my description above... what I am seeing here: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg (under the cloak I mean), is something very like what the lady in red is wearing here: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioBetrothed2.jpg Note the lady in blue also, as her blue over-dress opening is quite wide - the two edges don't meet. Instead they are belted in place over a darker under-dress. Or at least that is how it appears. Oddly too, she has differently coloured sleeves.


                                Bella




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • otsisto
                                The width at waist is too wide to be an opening showing a gamurra/undergown s skirt. I have relooked at the pic. and I concede that because the artist is not
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 5, 2010
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                                  The width at waist is too wide to be an opening showing a
                                  gamurra/undergown's skirt. I have relooked at the pic. and I concede that
                                  because the artist is not 100% to perspective that the back part of the
                                  giornea may be lost in the shadow of the cloak and gamurra.
                                  I have seen an apron match length of skirt but it was narrow and mid 1500s
                                  so the probability of the "brown" being an apron is possible but perhaps not
                                  very common.
                                  The hem area does not give a lot of clues to whether the "brown" is over or
                                  under the light blue. I lean towards the "brown" being over because of the
                                  width at the waist. So I am now leaning towards it not being an apron and
                                  towards being a giornea.
                                  I like using the terms when possible so that I can remember them and I like
                                  to think it helps educate others. Also, sometimes less to type. :)

                                  Sleeves different from the bodice of a gamurra
                                  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg
                                  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Ceyx3.JPG

                                  De

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  >>>>>I am saying it is the skirt of an under-dress (gamurra if you prefer),
                                  which is revealed through the opening in the over-dress. I am picturing a
                                  blue/brown/silver brocade under-dress, worn under the blue overdress with
                                  sleeves that is open at the front to reveal the skirt of the
                                  under-dress.<snip><<<<<

                                  Just an addition to my description above... what I am seeing here:
                                  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioArrival.jpg
                                  (under the cloak I mean), is something very like what the lady in red is
                                  wearing here:
                                  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarpaccioBetrothed2.jpg
                                  Note the lady in blue also, as her blue over-dress opening is quite wide -
                                  the two edges don't meet. Instead they are belted in place over a darker
                                  under-dress. Or at least that is how it appears. Oddly too, she has
                                  differently coloured sleeves.


                                  Bella
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