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introduction and a request for help

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  • eaglesaerie8413
    Good day to the list, My name is Odd, yes thats a noun though many argue for adjective as well, i am a decent self respecting early period varangian looking at
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 6, 2009
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      Good day to the list,
      My name is Odd, yes thats a noun though many argue for adjective as well, i am a decent self respecting early period varangian looking at lat 15th century italian. Now most would ask why any self respecting northman would be looking into this era and all would likely come to one and the same conclusion, For a Lady. This lady in question is reconstructing a set of dances and putting them together as a performance for an A&S project, the whole scenario is likely going to be set in 1480-1490 Florence italy.

      I have managed to find some pictures of this era but do need a little help trying to work through the seeming complexity.
      for instance i hear reference to two layer sleeves but no word on how they are layered, are the sleeves detachable,
      is that a set of tights with a cod piece or their underwear displayed proudly,
      is it always white
      how does one maintain modesty when dancing with their skivvies shown proudly to the world.

      this is just the list that pops to mind, i'm sure that these questions have indeed been asked before, however i am no good at using the clumsy search engine attached to yahoo groups.

      my thanks in advance
      Oddbjorn
    • wishingforpink
      It might be helpful if you were to provide the link for the images you are referring to. Or post them in a album. Masina I have managed to find some
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 6, 2009
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        It might be helpful if you were to provide the link for the images you are referring to. Or post them in a album.
        Masina

        "> I have managed to find some pictures of this era but do need a little help trying to work through the seeming complexity.
        > for instance i hear reference to two layer sleeves but no word on how they are layered, are the sleeves detachable,
        > is that a set of tights with a cod piece or their underwear displayed proudly,
        > is it always white
        > how does one maintain modesty when dancing with their skivvies shown proudly to the world."
      • alluwolf
        My reenactment group does 1480 Italy (more specifically a lot of us base our research on Florence)- we are just in our second year and I m not very well versed
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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          My reenactment group does 1480 Italy (more specifically a lot of us base our research on Florence)- we are just in our second year and I'm not very well versed on the guys clothes at all but I might be able to help a little bit.

          Hose are worn over white underpants (there are two styles that I know of, tight and loose) and are joined by this time (ie not two sepearate legs but cover the bum and are sewn together in the back) and the front is covered by a codpiece. Any gapeing in the hose and you are still covered by your undies.

          As to sleeves what do you mean by two layred sleeves? May seem a silly question but everyone has different terms for layers, some people count the shirt as a layer and some people don't count any 'linens' in layers at all.
          Most of our guys only have one layer on their arms (the shirt which I'm not counting as a layer, and the their doublet) with an optional second layer often worn for parades or when cold. I believe an outer layer was worn a lot more in period than today especially with the heat we get here in queensland, and that this layer may or may not have had sleeves (you can get different types of outer layers).
          Not sure if this is detachable or not- I know on some ladies garments the seeves can be detachable but its not done to just take them off and wander round in your shirt sleeves. Take off sleeves to wash up then put them back on- yes but not wander round and not go dancing.

          Another thing you may be refering to is I know ladies garments had detachable linings, they would switch them out for seasonal change so they could wear a dress all year and just change the lining as needed.

          But as I said- I haven't done too much research into mens clothes so I'm not 100% sure what was worn, just what our guys have cobbled up so far in the very beginings of a new group so be aware of that!

          If you want to see what our guys are wearing we have some photos here
          http://www.condottieri.com.au/ from our first year in the gallery. We are working on getting better and more organised photos up but websites take time. Also there are heaps of pictures for 1480-90, so if you are having trouble let me know. I have a heap from the first five years, not so many for the last five years being out of our period but if I give you names of painters many of them would still be painting in 1489 I'd imagine.

          Hope I've helped somewhat!

          Cathelina
        • Tamara Bedic
          Hi All,   Lurker here!   From some of the portraits I m lookiing at....           It seems as if the trim around the neckline is a velvet?  Whereas the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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            Hi All,
             
            Lurker here!
             
            From some of the portraits I'm lookiing at....
             
             
             
             
             
            It seems as if the trim around the neckline is a velvet?  Whereas the bodice and skirt are a "flatter" fabric-- a fabric with no pile to it.  In the bottom pic, the peach-colored fabric may even be a silk... 
             
            What's the consensus, here?
             
            I ask because I have a pink linen that I'd like to trim with either a high-sheen satin fabric (probably balck in color), or a velvet.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tamara Bedic
            This is more of  technique question, since I am not much of a seamstress.....   I am making an Italian gamurra (1490 s-1500) and would like to appy trim to
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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              This is more of  technique question, since I am not much of a seamstress.....
               
              I am making an Italian gamurra (1490's-1500) and would like to appy trim to the "U" shaped neckline.  Two questions:
               
              1.  How have you all gotten around that 90 degree curve without the trim bulking?  Are you actually crateing a seam there?  Or are you cutting a "U" shaped piece of fabric and then hemming the raw edge to make it a trim?
               
              2.  Are there any step-by-step instructions on this on a website?  I know it sounds like a simple thing, but baby step-by-step instructions with pictures would help!
               
              Many thanks!
               
              Tamara




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • alluwolf
              Any chance of a link tthe pictures you are talking about? Thanks Cathelina
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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                Any chance of a link tthe pictures you are talking about?

                Thanks
                Cathelina
              • Tamara Bedic
                Sorry...  I copied and pasted, but neitherpicturecame through.  Here are the sites...
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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                  Sorry...  I copied and pasted, but neitherpicturecame through.  Here are the sites...
                  http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Portrait-of-a-Woman-1509-Posters_i4045277_.htm
                  (you can zoom in to the image...)
                  ... and secondly...
                  www.allartclassic.com/pictures_zoom.php?p_num...
                   
                  Both images are up on festive atyre, but these particular sites show much large images...
                   
                  Thank you!
                   


                  --- On Tue, 9/22/09, alluwolf <scairy_person@...> wrote:


                  From: alluwolf <scairy_person@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Gamurra neckline trim-- same fabric or "higher end"?
                  To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 7:43 PM


                   



                  Any chance of a link tthe pictures you are talking about?

                  Thanks
                  Cathelina



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Morgana Vecchietti
                  Tamara, Not sure what other folks do, but in the past I ve cut a piece of the trim fabric to match the curve of the neckline. I can give you a few more
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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                    Tamara,

                    Not sure what other folks do, but in the past I've cut a piece of the
                    trim fabric to match the curve of the neckline. I can give you a few
                    more pointers but I have a couple of questions first:

                    1. Are you using a pattern or is this a custom dress? If it's a
                    pattern, please post the brand/number (i.e., Simplicity 1234) so I can
                    look it up to see what you're working with.
                    2. Is the bodice of the gamurra lined?
                    3. Where do you want to put the trim - flush with the edge of the
                    neckline (so that it lines up with the edge of the dress) or inset (so
                    you can see a bit of the dress fabric above the trim)

                    I don't know of any instructions out there on the web, but I can tell
                    you how I've done it in the past. I'm actually in the middle of doing
                    this very thing for a current project so I can even offer to take
                    pictures for you and put them up on my website with some
                    instructions...but the instructions will vary a bit, depending on your
                    answers :-)

                    ~Morgana

                    Tamara Bedic wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > This is more of technique question, since I am not much of a
                    > seamstress.....
                    >
                    > I am making an Italian gamurra (1490's-1500) and would like to appy
                    > trim to the "U" shaped neckline. Two questions:
                    >
                    > 1. How have you all gotten around that 90 degree curve without the
                    > trim bulking? Are you actually crateing a seam there? Or are you
                    > cutting a "U" shaped piece of fabric and then hemming the raw edge to
                    > make it a trim?
                    >
                    > 2. Are there any step-by-step instructions on this on a website? I
                    > know it sounds like a simple thing, but baby step-by-step instructions
                    > with pictures would help!
                    >
                    > Many thanks!
                    >
                    > Tamara
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • Caeryn
                    Tamara, Belay that last - sorry, just received your response with the image link which answers most of my questions :-) The trim in that image looks fairly
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 22, 2009
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                      Tamara,

                      Belay that last - sorry, just received your response with the image link which answers most of my questions :-)

                      The trim in that image looks fairly thin - probably the easiest way to handle it would be to make your own bias tape and then hand sew it to the dress and cut/seam it at those sharp corners. There are other ways to do it, but that would be the simplest.

                      For instructions on making your own bias tape you can look here: http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/biastape.php

                      ~Morgana
                    • borderlands15213
                      ... It might be worth mentioning that even with bias tape, it s advisable to sew down the outer or larger arc of the curve, first. In the case of the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 23, 2009
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                        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Caeryn" <morgana.vecchietti@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Tamara,
                        >
                        > Belay that last - sorry, just received your response with the image link which answers most of my questions :-)
                        >
                        > The trim in that image looks fairly thin - probably the easiest way to handle it would be to make your own bias tape and then hand sew it to the dress and cut/seam it at those sharp corners. There are other ways to do it, but that would be the simplest.
                        >
                        > For instructions on making your own bias tape you can look here: http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/biastape.php
                        >
                        > ~Morgana
                        >

                        It might be worth mentioning that even with bias tape, it's advisable to sew down the "outer" or larger arc of the curve, first. In the case of the Portrait of a Woman - 1509, we're talking about the lower edge, the one farther away from the neckline of the dress.
                        If you sew the smaller or nearer edge first, Tamara, then you will find that the "outer" or larger curve can't be covered with the other edge of the trim: the trim must stretch, which makes it narrower, or it can't stretch so it will want to stand "on edge," either at right angles to the body or, in the case of trim being applied to the skirt of a gown, perpendicular to the floor and that results in what is known in some circles as "lampshade phenomenon."
                        Sewing the larger or more distant edge first means you might have some surplus trim to be "eased" into the smaller distance of the inner curve. "Easing" condenses a larger amount of fabric into a lesser amount of space [on the fabric to which it is being sewn] and does it smoothly, without tucks, gathers, ruffles or puckers.

                        Yseult
                      • Jessica Maxson
                        The second link appears to be truncated in some way - I got to the site but no picture. But, judging from the first link, I hope I can answer your original
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 23, 2009
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                          The second link appears to be truncated in some way - I got to the site but
                          no picture. But, judging from the first link, I hope I can answer your
                          original question satisfactorily. I think it is possible that trim on gowns
                          could have been velvet. I can't think of a citation off the top of my head,
                          but I could do a little digging and see what turns up. We know they used
                          silks and high end wools for gowns, so my guess is that the trims would also
                          be of those fabrics. The thing you may need to watch out for is whether your
                          velvet trim and your linen gown are of similar weights. If the velvet is
                          significantly heavier than the backing fabric, your neckline may be
                          distorted.

                          Hope that helps, and good luck!
                          --Giuliana Salviati

                          On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Tamara Bedic <tamara_bedic@...>wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Sorry... I copied and pasted, but neitherpicturecame through. Here are
                          > the sites...
                          >
                          > http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Portrait-of-a-Woman-1509-Posters_i4045277_.htm
                          > (you can zoom in to the image...)
                          > ... and secondly...
                          > www.allartclassic.com/pictures_zoom.php?p_num...
                          >
                          > Both images are up on festive atyre, but these particular sites show much
                          > large images...
                          >
                          > Thank you!
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, alluwolf <scairy_person@...<scairy_person%40hotmail.com>>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > From: alluwolf <scairy_person@... <scairy_person%40hotmail.com>>
                          > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Gamurra neckline trim-- same
                          > fabric or "higher end"?
                          > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com<Italian_Renaissance_Costuming%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 7:43 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Any chance of a link tthe pictures you are talking about?
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          > Cathelina
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Brandy
                          I ve done this as well, especially if there is more than just a very gentle curve.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 25, 2009
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                            I've done this as well, especially if there is more than just a very gentle curve.

                            --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Morgana Vecchietti <morgana.vecchietti@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Tamara,
                            >
                            > Not sure what other folks do, but in the past I've cut a piece of the
                            > trim fabric to match the curve of the neckline. I can give you a few
                            > more pointers but I have a couple of questions first:
                          • Tamara Bedic
                            ...cut a piece of trim fabric... ?  So if the trim is say, black velvet, you cut a large U out of a piece of black velvet fabric then hem the edges...?  
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 25, 2009
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                              "...cut a piece of trim fabric..."? 

                              So if the trim is say, black velvet, you cut a large "U" out of a piece of black velvet fabric then hem the edges...?   Is that right?

                              Does anyone have pictures of this process?

                              Thank you!

                              --- On Fri, 9/25/09, Brandy <SWETIEPETI@...> wrote:

                              From: Brandy <SWETIEPETI@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] How do I apply trim to "U" shaped corners of a gamurra?
                              To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, September 25, 2009, 9:58 AM






                               





                              I've done this as well, especially if there is more than just a very gentle curve.



                              --- In Italian_Renaissance _Costuming@ yahoogroups. com, Morgana Vecchietti <morgana.vecchietti @...> wrote:

                              >

                              > Tamara,

                              >

                              > Not sure what other folks do, but in the past I've cut a piece of the

                              > trim fabric to match the curve of the neckline. I can give you a few

                              > more pointers but I have a couple of questions first:































                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Angela B
                              I just took a class at a newcomer s event a couple of weeks ago and the answer to that was the absolute best part of the class. The instructor said to take the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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                                I just took a class at a newcomer's event a couple of weeks ago and the answer to that was the absolute best part of the class.

                                The instructor said to take the trim, and using an iron (I forget if steam was involved)iron the trim in a curved motion while holding down one end to the ironing board. She said that it forces the weave on one edge to be tighter than the weave on the other edge - giving it a curve. She said to do it until you have the degree of curvature you want!!! I watched her do it right before my eyes and it was totally amazing!! I haven't tried it yet, but I've just started a new project and plan to give it a try. This problem is also the reason I haven't been able to trim simple tunic necklines with standard trim! If only I had know.

                                Good Luck.

                                --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Tamara Bedic <tamara_bedic@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > This is more of  technique question, since I am not much of a seamstress.....
                                >  
                                > I am making an Italian gamurra (1490's-1500) and would like to appy trim to the "U" shaped neckline.  Two questions:
                                >  
                                > 1.  How have you all gotten around that 90 degree curve without the trim bulking?  Are you actually crateing a seam there?  Or are you cutting a "U" shaped piece of fabric and then hemming the raw edge to make it a trim?
                                >  
                                > 2.  Are there any step-by-step instructions on this on a website?  I know it sounds like a simple thing, but baby step-by-step instructions with pictures would help!
                                >  
                                > Many thanks!
                                >  
                                > Tamara
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Tamara Bedic
                                I can t picture what this means:  iron the trim in a curved motion while holding down one end to the ironing board... ... From: Angela B
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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                                  I can't picture what this means: "iron the trim in a curved motion while holding down one end to the ironing board..."

                                  --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Angela B <mabenton3579@...> wrote:


                                  From: Angela B <mabenton3579@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] How do I apply trim to "U" shaped corners of a gamurra?
                                  To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:28 PM


                                   



                                  I just took a class at a newcomer's event a couple of weeks ago and the answer to that was the absolute best part of the class.

                                  The instructor said to take the trim, and using an iron (I forget if steam was involved). She said that it forces the weave on one edge to be tighter than the weave on the other edge - giving it a curve. She said to do it until you have the degree of curvature you want!!! I watched her do it right before my eyes and it was totally amazing!! I haven't tried it yet, but I've just started a new project and plan to give it a try. This problem is also the reason I haven't been able to trim simple tunic necklines with standard trim! If only I had know.

                                  Good Luck.

                                  --- In Italian_Renaissance _Costuming@ yahoogroups. com, Tamara Bedic <tamara_bedic@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > This is more of  technique question, since I am not much of a seamstress.. ...
                                  >  
                                  > I am making an Italian gamurra (1490's-1500) and would like to appy trim to the "U" shaped neckline.  Two questions:
                                  >  
                                  > 1.  How have you all gotten around that 90 degree curve without the trim bulking?  Are you actually crateing a seam there?  Or are you cutting a "U" shaped piece of fabric and then hemming the raw edge to make it a trim?
                                  >  
                                  > 2.  Are there any step-by-step instructions on this on a website?  I know it sounds like a simple thing, but baby step-by-step instructions with pictures would help!
                                  >  
                                  > Many thanks!
                                  >  
                                  > Tamara
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >











                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Joan Silvertoppe
                                  Greetings. You can try this with a small amount of trim as a sample (say like a 6-12 piece), as it is better to do than trying to recreate in words or photos.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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                                    Greetings.

                                    You can try this with a small amount of trim as a sample (say like a
                                    6-12" piece), as it is better to do than trying to recreate in words
                                    or photos. I don't have a video camera or I would offer a video post,
                                    as I don't find one online (my google-fu failed).

                                    What I wold do is to pin your trim lightly into a curved shape on your
                                    ironing board, then apply the steam from the hot iron (medium to high
                                    setting), then allow to cool into shape. The pins may shift or pop up
                                    as the steam shrinks the trim a little but that's ok. Many trims will
                                    shrink to that curved shape, but not all, so if you want to try this
                                    technique, you should sample your trim to see how well it curves, or
                                    not, or if something unusual happens to the trim (like some metallics
                                    might curl.) And always give a little extra ribbon length as it will
                                    shrink overall. BTW, It is a good idea to steam trims anyway, even if
                                    you are doing straight work, to pre-shrink them before being sewn down
                                    (I learned that the hard way).

                                    hth,

                                    Joan


                                    On Nov 6, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Tamara Bedic wrote:

                                    > I can't picture what this means: "iron the trim in a curved motion
                                    > while holding down one end to the ironing board..."
                                  • Angela B
                                    okay, I couldn t find any video s showing the process, but here is a photo that perhaps I can use to explain it with a different photo. Check this out
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 7, 2009
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                                      okay, I couldn't find any video's showing the process, but here is a photo that perhaps I can use to explain it with a different photo.

                                      Check this out http://brentblack.com/images/_replaced/tour_13_02_gabc15_IMG_5997.jpg

                                      Now, imagine that it started as a straight piece of trim (finished on both sides, though the photo isn't) Now in order to get it to the state in the photo, you would have held the bottom (end) down to the ironing board and glided your iron from the bottom and up and to the right in a curving motion. Now, depending on the amount of curvature you would need, you would iron more and more.

                                      Now, if I remember correctly from the class, when it's time to sew your newly curved trim, you sew the bottom edge to the garment first, then the top edge, but I could be mistaken. I'm working from visual memory.

                                      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Tamara Bedic <tamara_bedic@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I can't picture what this means: "iron the trim in a curved motion while holding down one end to the ironing board..."
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Angela B <mabenton3579@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: Angela B <mabenton3579@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] How do I apply trim to "U" shaped corners of a gamurra?
                                      > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:28 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I just took a class at a newcomer's event a couple of weeks ago and the answer to that was the absolute best part of the class.
                                      >
                                      > The instructor said to take the trim, and using an iron (I forget if steam was involved). She said that it forces the weave on one edge to be tighter than the weave on the other edge - giving it a curve. She said to do it until you have the degree of curvature you want!!! I watched her do it right before my eyes and it was totally amazing!! I haven't tried it yet, but I've just started a new project and plan to give it a try. This problem is also the reason I haven't been able to trim simple tunic necklines with standard trim! If only I had know.
                                      >
                                      > Good Luck.
                                      >
                                      > --- In Italian_Renaissance _Costuming@ yahoogroups. com, Tamara Bedic <tamara_bedic@ ...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > This is more of  technique question, since I am not much of a seamstress.. ...
                                      > >  
                                      > > I am making an Italian gamurra (1490's-1500) and would like to appy trim to the "U" shaped neckline.  Two questions:
                                      > >  
                                      > > 1.  How have you all gotten around that 90 degree curve without the trim bulking?  Are you actually crateing a seam there?  Or are you cutting a "U" shaped piece of fabric and then hemming the raw edge to make it a trim?
                                      > >  
                                      > > 2.  Are there any step-by-step instructions on this on a website?  I know it sounds like a simple thing, but baby step-by-step instructions with pictures would help!
                                      > >  
                                      > > Many thanks!
                                      > >  
                                      > > Tamara
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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