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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] was: way early Italian? now: Turkish Zimarri

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  • lilinah@earthlink.net
    ... It has been correctly implied that Isabella and her court were influenced by Spanish Muslim culture. The influences were largely in architecture and
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
      Chris Catalfamo wrote:
      > And I wonder if we are also looking at the inspiration for the ropa and loose gown in
      > general. Since the Moors were still in Spain until 1492 and it has been inferred, since
      > Isabella was a warrior queen, that her court was heavily influenced by Moorish culture.

      It has been correctly implied that Isabella and her court were influenced by Spanish Muslim culture. The influences were largely in architecture and architectural ornament, and in textile technology (including dyeing, weaving, knitting, and more) and fabric patterns.

      However, the garments worn in al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) were pull-over-the-head tunics. They did not open up the center front like Ottoman coats/kaftans.

      > Certainly what still exists in Spain suggests that. And Southern Italy was also under
      > Moorish control on and off.

      Much of the influence on Southern Spain came from North Africa, where loose pull-over tunics were worn, typical of the Arabic vestimentary system. The Fatimids, for example, who conquered Sicily and influenced other parts of Southern Italy, were originally from what is now Morocco and Algeria before they conquered Egypt.

      It seems to me that a more likely source for the Italian zimarri the Spanish ropa, and the English loose gown can be found in the Ottoman entari (var. sp.) and kaftan, and, perhaps, the older Persian garment, the qaba' (the clothing of both Persians and the Ottomans reflecting Central Asian origin). A garment that fastens with buttons or ties would meld into the clothing systems of 15th and 16th century Europe far more easily than the pull-over tunics of the Andalusi, Maghribi, and Egyptian Muslims.

      Certainly by the late 15th century there was much trade between Italian coastal cities and the Ottoman Empire. The artist Gentile Bellini traveled to Constantinople between 1479 and 1481. He was, after all, from Venice, which continued to have very close trade ties with the Ottomans for centuries.

      Bellini's drawing of a serving woman:
      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini5_ex.asp
      the little lines on connect notes he made and areas of her clothing - probably colors for a painting.

      Bellini's drawing of a Janissary:
      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini4_ex.asp

      And his color portrait of a seated scribe:
      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini2_ex.asp

      And his color portrait of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II:
      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini3_ex.asp

      For more discussion, see
      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini_ex.asp

      On the other hand, here's what "Moorish" women were wearing when Isabella conquered the last Muslim state in the Iberian peninsula in 1492
      http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/ConversionOfMoors-Granada.jpg
      They are wearing sirwal (loose pants), tunics, and large rectangles of cloth wrapped around themselves.

      Men dressed similarly, with different head coverings - i've seen the relief of the forced conversion of the men that parallels that of the women, above, but i can't find an on-line version right now.

      Here's how they dressed around 1285:
      http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/MFME.html

      I hope this makes the general differences in garment style between the Central Asian influenced Ottomans and the Arabic influenced North African and Spanish Muslims clear. So i think it highly unlikely that the zimarri or ropa were influenced by Andalusi or North African Muslims, but rather by the Ottomans.

      Fiametta Basilio
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      ... Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! That should say Southern Italy... Mea culpa. Fiametta Basilio
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
        I wrote:
        >Much of the influence on Southern Spain came from North Africa, where loose pull-over
        >tunics were worn, typical of the Arabic vestimentary system. The Fatimids, for example,
        >who conquered Sicily and influenced other parts of Southern Italy, were originally from
        >what is now Morocco and Algeria before they conquered Egypt.

        Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! That should say Southern Italy...

        Mea culpa.

        Fiametta Basilio
      • Brad Moore
        snip: I hope this makes the general differences in garment style between the Central Asian influenced Ottomans and the Arabic influenced North African and
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
          snip: I hope this makes the general differences in garment style between the
          Central Asian influenced Ottomans and the Arabic influenced North
          African and Spanish Muslims clear. So i think it highly unlikely that
          the zimarri or ropa were influenced by Andalusi or North African
          Muslims, but rather by the Ottomans.

          Fiametta, I agree completely. There is a common misconception that all muslim peoples had a continuity of dress. The garments of the Ottomans, like the caftan are what we are seeing in the Italian Portraits in Moda a Firenze, and are described in Henry's wardrobe as a long, loose gown, with long, narrow sleeves. These garments are Turkic in origins, and the earliest definitive examples I have found are from 6th and 7th century Egyptian graves of Antinoopolis (believed to have been worn by Parthian or other Turkic mercenaries employed by the Romans, and buried in Roman graves). These long sleeved riding coats evolve into the Caftan of the early Ottoman period. The garments worn in Spain are Maghribi and/or Arabic in origin, heavily influenced by a desert culture. Ottoman garments are those of horse people, though heavily refined by the 16th century. I would love to find an image of a European man wearing a caftan like garment. The Venetians traded
          heavily with the Ottomans, especially for silks and exotic fabrics.

          Brad Moore

          "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
          - J.R.R. Tolkien




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Elizabeth Caldwell
          I apologize on not following this thread as closely as I probably should. I would like to direct anyone interested in looking at extant examples of Ottoman
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
            I apologize on not following this thread as closely as I probably should. I
            would like to direct anyone interested in looking at extant examples of
            Ottoman clothing to
            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/I_03_01.htm
            Where there are some lovely coats. I do know of a few webpages in which
            the Turkish style coat being worn in 16th Italy has already been pretty well
            researched if anyone is interested in those. There are some very
            interesting images, as well, in the Clothing of the Renaissance World book
            that just came out that shows the coat being worn in Italy and how it was
            worn in Turkey.

            -Isabella

            On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Chris Catalfamo
            <catalfamo1190@...>wrote:

            > This is excellent information. Thanks so much. I am totally ignorant of
            > Ottoman Empire history. Can you suggest a general work for me to read that
            > would put all of this in historical context for me? My understanding
            > unfortunately begins and ends at the Dover coloring book on Moorish fashions
            > and the Hispanic Costume book.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: lilinah@... <lilinah%40earthlink.net>
            > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com<Italian_Renaissance_Costuming%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:51 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] was: way early Italian? now:
            > Turkish Zimarri
            >
            > Chris Catalfamo wrote:
            > > And I wonder if we are also looking at the inspiration for the ropa and
            > loose gown in
            > > general. Since the Moors were still in Spain until 1492 and it has been
            > inferred, since
            > > Isabella was a warrior queen, that her court was heavily influenced by
            > Moorish culture.
            >
            > It has been correctly implied that Isabella and her court were influenced
            > by Spanish Muslim culture. The influences were largely in architecture and
            > architectural ornament, and in textile technology (including dyeing,
            > weaving, knitting, and more) and fabric patterns.
            >
            > However, the garments worn in al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) were
            > pull-over-the-head tunics. They did not open up the center front like
            > Ottoman coats/kaftans.
            >
            > > Certainly what still exists in Spain suggests that. And Southern Italy
            > was also under
            > > Moorish control on and off.
            >
            > Much of the influence on Southern Spain came from North Africa, where loose
            > pull-over tunics were worn, typical of the Arabic vestimentary system. The
            > Fatimids, for example, who conquered Sicily and influenced other parts of
            > Southern Italy, were originally from what is now Morocco and Algeria before
            > they conquered Egypt.
            >
            > It seems to me that a more likely source for the Italian zimarri the
            > Spanish ropa, and the English loose gown can be found in the Ottoman entari
            > (var. sp.) and kaftan, and, perhaps, the older Persian garment, the qaba'
            > (the clothing of both Persians and the Ottomans reflecting Central Asian
            > origin). A garment that fastens with buttons or ties would meld into the
            > clothing systems of 15th and 16th century Europe far more easily than the
            > pull-over tunics of the Andalusi, Maghribi, and Egyptian Muslims.
            >
            > Certainly by the late 15th century there was much trade between Italian
            > coastal cities and the Ottoman Empire. The artist Gentile Bellini traveled
            > to Constantinople between 1479 and 1481. He was, after all, from Venice,
            > which continued to have very close trade ties with the Ottomans for
            > centuries.
            >
            > Bellini's drawing of a serving woman:
            > http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini5_ex.asp
            > the little lines on connect notes he made and areas of her clothing -
            > probably colors for a painting.
            >
            > Bellini's drawing of a Janissary:
            > http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini4_ex.asp
            >
            > And his color portrait of a seated scribe:
            > http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini2_ex.asp
            >
            > And his color portrait of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II:
            > http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini3_ex.asp
            >
            > For more discussion, see
            > http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini_ex.asp
            >
            > On the other hand, here's what "Moorish" women were wearing when Isabella
            > conquered the last Muslim state in the Iberian peninsula in 1492
            > http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/ConversionOfMoors-Granada.jpg<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elilinah/Costuming/ConversionOfMoors-Granada.jpg>
            > They are wearing sirwal (loose pants), tunics, and large rectangles of
            > cloth wrapped around themselves.
            >
            > Men dressed similarly, with different head coverings - i've seen the relief
            > of the forced conversion of the men that parallels that of the women, above,
            > but i can't find an on-line version right now.
            >
            > Here's how they dressed around 1285:
            > http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/MFME.html<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elilinah/Costuming/MFME.html>
            >
            > I hope this makes the general differences in garment style between the
            > Central Asian influenced Ottomans and the Arabic influenced North African
            > and Spanish Muslims clear. So i think it highly unlikely that the zimarri or
            > ropa were influenced by Andalusi or North African Muslims, but rather by the
            > Ottomans.
            >
            > Fiametta Basilio
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • deb
            Wow! Amazing info and very interesting. Thanks Deb in Colorado [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
              Wow! Amazing info and very interesting. Thanks

              Deb in Colorado

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... We think alike :-) ... I ve generally seen those foreign garments found at Antinoe identified as Parthian Persian. There is a collection of garments - like
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
                Brad Moore <mamluk@...> wrote:
                >Fiametta, I agree completely. There is a common misconception that all muslim peoples had a
                >continuity of dress. The garments of the Ottomans, like the caftan are what we are seeing
                >in the Italian Portraits in Moda a Firenze, and are described in Henry's wardrobe as a long,
                >loose gown, with long, narrow sleeves. These garments are Turkic in origins...

                We think alike :-)

                >...and the earliest definitive examples I have found are from 6th and 7th century Egyptian
                >graves of Antinoopolis (believed to have been worn by Parthian or other Turkic mercenaries
                >employed by the Romans, and buried in Roman graves).

                I've generally seen those foreign garments found at Antinoe identified as Parthian Persian. There is a collection of garments - like those from Antinoe - in France. I've only found black and white photos of the woolen coats and linen shirts. They have interesting tailoring details that were lost in Persia after Islamicization, curved seams in the back, "horseshoe cuffs" on the sleeves, not to mention the interesting fastening in the front.

                >These long sleeved riding coats evolve into the Caftan of the early Ottoman period.

                I wouldn't make a direct correlation between the Parthian riding coats and the Ottoman entari and kaftan. That's a long stretch of time between them. To me the central point is Central Asian influence on both. There are still Turkic people living today in parts of what are now Western China. During the Mongol invasions of the 13th century, many people of Turkic (not Turkish) origin were essential to the conquest and the subsequent ruling, not only of the Middle East but also of China because the number of Mongols was not quite enough. There was a lot of borrowing back and forth linguistically, in cuisine, in clothing, and not doubt other aspects of culture, between the Mongols and Turkic peoples. I am not saying the Ottoman entari or kaftan is Mongol, just pointing back to Central Asia as the locale for a common source.

                >The garments worn in Spain are Maghribi and/or Arabic in origin, heavily influenced by a
                >desert culture. Ottoman garments are those of horse people, though heavily refined by the
                >16th century. I would love to find an image of a European man wearing a caftan like garment.
                >The Venetians traded heavily with the Ottomans, especially for silks and exotic fabrics.

                There was a link in Margo Anderson's message to a painting of Henry VIII in what appears to me to be a European interpretation of one.
                >> http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/HenryVIII20.jpg

                Fiametta Basilio
              • Brad Moore
                Isabella, I have the kostym website, but would certainly be interested in any other you might have on the Turkish Coat worn in Europe. I am particularly
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 1, 2009
                  Isabella, I have the kostym website, but would certainly be interested in any other you might have on the Turkish Coat worn in Europe. I am particularly interested in the caftan worn by men. I have written documentation for it, but no pictures of them being worn by men. I also have the Vecellio book, and will look at it more closely.

                  Brad Moore

                  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                  - J.R.R. Tolkien




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ghadahfalaknoor
                  The Henry VIII picture seems very English in origin. I think its the paterns on the fabrics they seem european in design to my eyes. ( Just spent the last
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 2, 2009
                    The Henry VIII picture seems very English in origin. I think its the paterns on the fabrics they seem "european in design" to my eyes. ( Just spent the last three weeks pouriong over Persian and Ottoman Fragments and extants so I could be a little blurry as well.

                    Thinking a "Eurpean Knockoff"? Done with pearls why not garments.

                    Goos luck asn lookig forwasr to seeint what is done with the lucious bronze fabric with the medallions on it!

                    Cheers
                    Ghadah
                  • Chris Catalfamo
                    This is excellent information. Thanks so much. I am totally ignorant of Ottoman Empire history. Can you suggest a general work for me to read that would put
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 2, 2009
                      This is excellent information. Thanks so much. I am totally ignorant of Ottoman Empire history. Can you suggest a general work for me to read that would put all of this in historical context for me? My understanding unfortunately begins and ends at the Dover coloring book on Moorish fashions and the Hispanic Costume book.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: lilinah@...
                      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:51 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] was: way early Italian? now: Turkish Zimarri


                      Chris Catalfamo wrote:
                      > And I wonder if we are also looking at the inspiration for the ropa and loose gown in
                      > general. Since the Moors were still in Spain until 1492 and it has been inferred, since
                      > Isabella was a warrior queen, that her court was heavily influenced by Moorish culture.

                      It has been correctly implied that Isabella and her court were influenced by Spanish Muslim culture. The influences were largely in architecture and architectural ornament, and in textile technology (including dyeing, weaving, knitting, and more) and fabric patterns.

                      However, the garments worn in al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) were pull-over-the-head tunics. They did not open up the center front like Ottoman coats/kaftans.

                      > Certainly what still exists in Spain suggests that. And Southern Italy was also under
                      > Moorish control on and off.

                      Much of the influence on Southern Spain came from North Africa, where loose pull-over tunics were worn, typical of the Arabic vestimentary system. The Fatimids, for example, who conquered Sicily and influenced other parts of Southern Italy, were originally from what is now Morocco and Algeria before they conquered Egypt.

                      It seems to me that a more likely source for the Italian zimarri the Spanish ropa, and the English loose gown can be found in the Ottoman entari (var. sp.) and kaftan, and, perhaps, the older Persian garment, the qaba' (the clothing of both Persians and the Ottomans reflecting Central Asian origin). A garment that fastens with buttons or ties would meld into the clothing systems of 15th and 16th century Europe far more easily than the pull-over tunics of the Andalusi, Maghribi, and Egyptian Muslims.

                      Certainly by the late 15th century there was much trade between Italian coastal cities and the Ottoman Empire. The artist Gentile Bellini traveled to Constantinople between 1479 and 1481. He was, after all, from Venice, which continued to have very close trade ties with the Ottomans for centuries.

                      Bellini's drawing of a serving woman:
                      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini5_ex.asp
                      the little lines on connect notes he made and areas of her clothing - probably colors for a painting.

                      Bellini's drawing of a Janissary:
                      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini4_ex.asp

                      And his color portrait of a seated scribe:
                      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini2_ex.asp

                      And his color portrait of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II:
                      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini3_ex.asp

                      For more discussion, see
                      http://www.gardnermuseum.org/2005_exhibitions/bellini_ex.asp

                      On the other hand, here's what "Moorish" women were wearing when Isabella conquered the last Muslim state in the Iberian peninsula in 1492
                      http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/ConversionOfMoors-Granada.jpg
                      They are wearing sirwal (loose pants), tunics, and large rectangles of cloth wrapped around themselves.

                      Men dressed similarly, with different head coverings - i've seen the relief of the forced conversion of the men that parallels that of the women, above, but i can't find an on-line version right now.

                      Here's how they dressed around 1285:
                      http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/MFME.html

                      I hope this makes the general differences in garment style between the Central Asian influenced Ottomans and the Arabic influenced North African and Spanish Muslims clear. So i think it highly unlikely that the zimarri or ropa were influenced by Andalusi or North African Muslims, but rather by the Ottomans.

                      Fiametta Basilio



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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