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ISO Chris

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  • L
    I have a question about balzo s and the Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait of a Lady and Lute. Am I correct in assuming she is wearing a small balzo?~L
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 26 5:55 PM
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      I have a question about balzo's and the Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait
      of a Lady and Lute. Am I correct in assuming she is wearing a small
      balzo?~L
    • otsisto
      There are several Lady and a lute paintings. If it is a white pice of linen covering a bun then I believe that that is not a balzo. Do you have a url or
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 27 2:43 AM
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        There are several Lady and a lute paintings. If it is a white pice of linen
        covering a bun then I believe that that is not a balzo. Do you have a url or
        artist?

        balzo articals:
        http://home.earthlink.net/~lizjones429/balzo-new.htm
        http://www.fynehats.com/balzo.htm
        http://www.geocities.com/curvess2000/my_balzos.htm

        -----Original Message-----

        I have a question about balzo's and the Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait
        of a Lady and Lute. Am I correct in assuming she is wearing a small
        balzo?~L
      • Brad Moore
        The painting is by Agnolo Bronzino and is usually called Portrait of a Lady. I cannot see the image well enough to determine if she is wearing one or not, but
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 2, 2009
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          The painting is by Agnolo Bronzino and is usually called Portrait of a Lady. I cannot see the image well enough to determine if she is wearing one or not, but looking at other portraits he painted that are contemporary it would seem in keeping with other ladies of the day. The link below is to Web Gallery of Art. The portrait in question isn't there, but there are some contemporary women's portraits who wear the balzo, or something very like it. Some, however, it is difficult to tell if they have anything covering their hair in back, beyond a band with pearls, etc. There could be a sort of caul or hair net on some, but its difficult to tell.

          http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/bronzino/index.html

          Brad Moore

          "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
          - J.R.R. Tolkien




          ________________________________
          From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
          To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:43:04 AM
          Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] ISO Chris


          There are several Lady and a lute paintings. If it is a white pice of linen
          covering a bun then I believe that that is not a balzo. Do you have a url or
          artist?

          balzo articals:
          http://home. earthlink. net/~lizjones429 /balzo-new. htm
          http://www.fynehats .com/balzo. htm
          http://www.geocitie s.com/curvess200 0/my_balzos. htm

          -----Original Message-----

          I have a question about balzo's and the Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait
          of a Lady and Lute. Am I correct in assuming she is wearing a small
          balzo?~L







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • L
          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2009/Magdalena.htm Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait of a Lady and Lute. Is she wearing a small balzo? Does there
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 3, 2009
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            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2009/Magdalena.htm
            Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait of a Lady and Lute.
            Is she wearing a small balzo? Does there appear to be a linen coif under it?
            L
          • L
            The links were purrrfect! Otsisto, thank you. ~L
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 3, 2009
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              The links were purrrfect! Otsisto, thank you.
              ~L
            • Bella
              ________________________________ From: L Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: ?Blazo Small balzo? It appears to be
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 3, 2009
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                ________________________________

                From: L <wishingforpink@...>
                Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: ?Blazo



                Small balzo? It appears to be padded/firm, so yes. Coif under it? I don't think so, just the brim/edge of the balzo.



                Bella

                 








                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links




                http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2009/Magdalena.htm
                Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait of a Lady and Lute.
                Is she wearing a small balzo? Does there appear to be a linen coif under it?
                L<<<<<<


                Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • L
                The balzo was much easier to make than I first thought. Perhaps I just lucked out with the inital shape of the inner linen. No wire was required. Thanks for
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  The balzo was much easier to make than I first thought. Perhaps I just lucked out with the inital shape of the inner linen. No wire was required. Thanks for the links. It was a big help! ~L
                • Oonagh ONeill
                  ... I am so glad that some one pointed you to my page. http://www.geocities.com/curvess2000/my_balzos.htm Thank you Otsisto. I ve been up to my eyeballs with
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 3, 2009
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                    --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "L" <wishingforpink@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The links were purrrfect! Otsisto, thank you.
                    > ~L
                    >
                    I am so glad that some one pointed you to my page. http://www.geocities.com/curvess2000/my_balzos.htm Thank you Otsisto. I've been up to my eyeballs with University.

                    I hope that you find my article of use. I havae plans for a new outfit dome time when uni is less full on, and it will involve a balzo. I will do a diary to go with it so that is make the construction easier for others. Sadly I don't think that it will be any time soon. lol

                    Mind you that is only one possible way of making a balzo. The wonderful bulgos balzo article http://home.earthlink.net/~lizjones429/balzo-new.htm is great for yet another 2 way of making this kind of head dress.

                    Right, head back into the books now.

                    Cheers

                    Deb
                    (Oonagh)
                    [Pagar le Pompe]

                    Oonaghs Own - Venetian Patrician Womens Dress Laurel [from the skin
                    out] and Accessories of the mid to late sixteenth century
                    http://www.geocities.com/oonaghsown
                  • L
                    Thank you. The balzo is finished and waiting to be wore to my sister s wedding. ~L
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 12, 2009
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                      Thank you. The balzo is finished and waiting to be wore to my sister's wedding.
                      ~L
                      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Brad Moore <mamluk@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The painting is by Agnolo Bronzino and is usually called Portrait of a Lady. I cannot see the image well enough to determine if she is wearing one or not, but looking at other portraits he painted that are contemporary it would seem in keeping with other ladies of the day. The link below is to Web Gallery of Art. The portrait in question isn't there, but there are some contemporary women's portraits who wear the balzo, or something very like it. Some, however, it is difficult to tell if they have anything covering their hair in back, beyond a band with pearls, etc. There could be a sort of caul or hair net on some, but its difficult to tell.
                      >
                      > http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/bronzino/index.html
                      >
                      > Brad Moore
                      >
                      > "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                      > - J.R.R. Tolkien
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
                      > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:43:04 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] ISO Chris
                      >
                      >
                      > There are several Lady and a lute paintings. If it is a white pice of linen
                      > covering a bun then I believe that that is not a balzo. Do you have a url or
                      > artist?
                      >
                      > balzo articals:
                      > http://home. earthlink. net/~lizjones429 /balzo-new. htm
                      > http://www.fynehats .com/balzo. htm
                      > http://www.geocitie s.com/curvess200 0/my_balzos. htm
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > I have a question about balzo's and the Feb 1 RofV showcase. Portrait
                      > of a Lady and Lute. Am I correct in assuming she is wearing a small
                      > balzo?~L
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • otsisto
                      From a Manuscript http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k De
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 16, 2009
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                        From a Manuscript

                        http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k

                        De
                      • otsisto
                        Veneto http://tinyurl.com/denlob Lotto http://tinyurl.com/ctrngv This mans doublet(?) material looks similar to Laura da Pola s gown material
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 17, 2009
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                          Veneto
                          http://tinyurl.com/denlob

                          Lotto
                          http://tinyurl.com/ctrngv
                          This mans doublet(?) material looks similar to Laura da Pola's gown material
                          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LauraDaPola.JPG

                          assisted by L. Fontana
                          http://tinyurl.com/c6nde6
                          Would love a large pic. just to get a better look at the woman's sleeves

                          De
                        • Chris Catalfamo
                          The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 17, 2009
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                            The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in about 4 colors mainly tans, golds, red rust and dark brown and I am pulling back from it now because of my own ignorance about textiles. I really love this fabric because it fits a Southern Mediterranean persona with Moorish influence and I paid more for it than I usually can pay. I even have a woven trim that matches perfectly. I was going to make a zimarra out of it with a gold damask kirtle underneath and rust red and with honeycomb gold silk undersleeves.
                            My footnotes are not really adequate. In Vecellio he talks about brocades and damasks and the images show some relatively complex patterns but of course it is not possible to discern the texture of what you are seeing. Dressing Renaissance Florence talks about complex figured silks by the middle of the 15th century. Moda talks about Turkish robes with complex designs that women showed off but once again--nothing extant. Portraits have some fabrics that look like they could be woven figured silks, but they might very well be velvets or slashed garments with lots of embroidery. Yet figured silks would have rotted much quicker. What we have extant seems to be mainly damasks and velvets and linens and wools--but again I'm not an expert.
                            It also occurs to me that my sewing is not really good enough to warrant worrying about fabric texture so much. The playtron in me just wants to dress for the RenFair audience and the historian in me wants to crack the whip. Very schizo.
                            I am sure there are those on the list who know way more than I do about this. I suppose since this is just for the Ren Fair I should please myself and go for the wow rather than the wearfore.

                            Oh and this was cute--I got together on Facebook with a very old friend who knew me in high school --we kind of dated--when I only did 19th century. I was pleading for help because of a weekend fabric binge that resulted from the above indecision about my "Persian" fabric, and said it was time for the 12 steps again.
                            My friend replied, "Repeat after me: I admit that I am powerless against Satin.........and silk and brocade." This made me giggle all day.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: otsisto
                            To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:01 PM
                            Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?


                            From a Manuscript

                            http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k

                            De




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ghadahfalaknoor
                            Would you be able to post a picture of the lucious sounding silk fabric? I ask becasue it is hard to discern by your description weather thsi would be good
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 17, 2009
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                              Would you be able to post a picture of the lucious sounding silk fabric? I ask becasue it is hard to discern by your description weather thsi would be good for "Italian" style Ottoman turkish, or Persian ( where you have several periods to choose from that are a little different from one another in their fabric styles, some did not use "Figures" others mixed figures and medallions in their fabric styles.

                              Cheers

                              Ghadah Falak Noor
                              Formerly Satine de la Courcel


                              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Catalfamo" <catalfamo1190@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in about 4 colors mainly tans, golds, red rust and dark brown and I am pulling back from it now because of my own ignorance about textiles. I really love this fabric because it fits a Southern Mediterranean persona with Moorish influence and I paid more for it than I usually can pay. I even have a woven trim that matches perfectly. I was going to make a zimarra out of it with a gold damask kirtle underneath and rust red and with honeycomb gold silk undersleeves.
                              > My footnotes are not really adequate. In Vecellio he talks about brocades and damasks and the images show some relatively complex patterns but of course it is not possible to discern the texture of what you are seeing. Dressing Renaissance Florence talks about complex figured silks by the middle of the 15th century. Moda talks about Turkish robes with complex designs that women showed off but once again--nothing extant. Portraits have some fabrics that look like they could be woven figured silks, but they might very well be velvets or slashed garments with lots of embroidery. Yet figured silks would have rotted much quicker. What we have extant seems to be mainly damasks and velvets and linens and wools--but again I'm not an expert.
                              > It also occurs to me that my sewing is not really good enough to warrant worrying about fabric texture so much. The playtron in me just wants to dress for the RenFair audience and the historian in me wants to crack the whip. Very schizo.
                              > I am sure there are those on the list who know way more than I do about this. I suppose since this is just for the Ren Fair I should please myself and go for the wow rather than the wearfore.
                              >
                              > Oh and this was cute--I got together on Facebook with a very old friend who knew me in high school --we kind of dated--when I only did 19th century. I was pleading for help because of a weekend fabric binge that resulted from the above indecision about my "Persian" fabric, and said it was time for the 12 steps again.
                              > My friend replied, "Repeat after me: I admit that I am powerless against Satin.........and silk and brocade." This made me giggle all day.
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: otsisto
                              > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:01 PM
                              > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?
                              >
                              >
                              > From a Manuscript
                              >
                              > http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k
                              >
                              > De
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • catalfamo1190@comcast.net
                              Thanks. I will try to post a photo as soon as I get my camera back having once again loaned it to a daughter Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From:
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 17, 2009
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                                Thanks. I will try to post a photo as soon as I get my camera back having once again loaned it to a daughter

                                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: "ghadahfalaknoor" <LadySAtineDeLaCourcel@...>

                                Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:18:31
                                To: <Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?



                                Would you be able to post a picture of the lucious sounding silk fabric? I ask becasue it is hard to discern by your description weather thsi would be good for "Italian" style Ottoman turkish, or Persian ( where you have several periods to choose from that are a little different from one another in their fabric styles, some did not use "Figures" others mixed figures and medallions in their fabric styles.

                                Cheers

                                Ghadah Falak Noor
                                Formerly Satine de la Courcel


                                --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Catalfamo" <catalfamo1190@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in about 4 colors mainly tans, golds, red rust and dark brown and I am pulling back from it now because of my own ignorance about textiles. I really love this fabric because it fits a Southern Mediterranean persona with Moorish influence and I paid more for it than I usually can pay. I even have a woven trim that matches perfectly. I was going to make a zimarra out of it with a gold damask kirtle underneath and rust red and with honeycomb gold silk undersleeves.
                                > My footnotes are not really adequate. In Vecellio he talks about brocades and damasks and the images show some relatively complex patterns but of course it is not possible to discern the texture of what you are seeing. Dressing Renaissance Florence talks about complex figured silks by the middle of the 15th century. Moda talks about Turkish robes with complex designs that women showed off but once again--nothing extant. Portraits have some fabrics that look like they could be woven figured silks, but they might very well be velvets or slashed garments with lots of embroidery. Yet figured silks would have rotted much quicker. What we have extant seems to be mainly damasks and velvets and linens and wools--but again I'm not an expert.
                                > It also occurs to me that my sewing is not really good enough to warrant worrying about fabric texture so much. The playtron in me just wants to dress for the RenFair audience and the historian in me wants to crack the whip. Very schizo.
                                > I am sure there are those on the list who know way more than I do about this. I suppose since this is just for the Ren Fair I should please myself and go for the wow rather than the wearfore.
                                >
                                > Oh and this was cute--I got together on Facebook with a very old friend who knew me in high school --we kind of dated--when I only did 19th century. I was pleading for help because of a weekend fabric binge that resulted from the above indecision about my "Persian" fabric, and said it was time for the 12 steps again.
                                > My friend replied, "Repeat after me: I admit that I am powerless against Satin.........and silk and brocade." This made me giggle all day.
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: otsisto
                                > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:01 PM
                                > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?
                                >
                                >
                                > From a Manuscript
                                >
                                > http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k
                                >
                                > De
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • borderlands15213
                                Unless you are planning on making a gown from the early- to mid-1300s, it seems to me that it will make more sense for you to try to find either images from
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 19, 2009
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                                  Unless you are planning on making a gown from the early- to mid-1300s, it seems to me that it will make more sense for you to try to find either images from the decade or quarter-century in which the fashion you want to create was worn of a textile similar to yours; or that you focus your research on the textile industries and the textile trade routes (and of course what they carried) for the time, either quarter-century or decade, from which you're talking about recreating a garment or a fashion.
                                  It's true that you can always explain something older, but just because something *had* been known two centuries earlier doesn't mean that it is "done" two hundred years after that earlier point in time.
                                  Things fall out of favor. Fads fade; fashions change.
                                  There comes a point when something *that* much older becomes improbable.
                                  If I wanted to satisfy the historian in me ("Faire" probably doesn't know and most of the paying public doesn't notice or care if they do notice) I'd look for written descriptions or for records of contracts with weavers or merchants.

                                  Yseult the Gentle

                                  --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Catalfamo" <catalfamo1190@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in about 4 colors mainly tans, golds, red rust and dark brown and I am pulling back from it now because of my own ignorance about textiles. I really love this fabric because it fits a Southern Mediterranean persona with Moorish influence and I paid more for it than I usually can pay. I even have a woven trim that matches perfectly. I was going to make a zimarra out of it with a gold damask kirtle underneath and rust red and with honeycomb gold silk undersleeves.
                                  > My footnotes are not really adequate. In Vecellio he talks about brocades and damasks and the images show some relatively complex patterns but of course it is not possible to discern the texture of what you are seeing. Dressing Renaissance Florence talks about complex figured silks by the middle of the 15th century. Moda talks about Turkish robes with complex designs that women showed off but once again--nothing extant. Portraits have some fabrics that look like they could be woven figured silks, but they might very well be velvets or slashed garments with lots of embroidery. Yet figured silks would have rotted much quicker. What we have extant seems to be mainly damasks and velvets and linens and wools--but again I'm not an expert.
                                  > It also occurs to me that my sewing is not really good enough to warrant worrying about fabric texture so much. The playtron in me just wants to dress for the RenFair audience and the historian in me wants to crack the whip. Very schizo.
                                  > I am sure there are those on the list who know way more than I do about this. I suppose since this is just for the Ren Fair I should please myself and go for the wow rather than the wearfore.
                                  >
                                  <<snipped>>>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: otsisto
                                  > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:01 PM
                                  > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From a Manuscript
                                  >
                                  > http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k
                                  >
                                  > De
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Chris Catalfamo
                                  Yes. I probably will not use the fabric. I did find a similar pattern on a Renaissance textile remnant but it is a silk velvet. I guess will order the book on
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 19, 2009
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                                    Yes. I probably will not use the fabric. I did find a similar pattern on a Renaissance textile remnant but it is a silk velvet. I guess will order the book on the silk industry and also go through the inventories again. I met yet use it, but...not enough evidence. When they refer to figured silk, I would guess that doesn't mean polychromatic necessarily or more than 2 colors in that texture of silk (taffeta weight).


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: borderlands15213
                                    To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:23 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?


                                    Unless you are planning on making a gown from the early- to mid-1300s, it seems to me that it will make more sense for you to try to find either images from the decade or quarter-century in which the fashion you want to create was worn of a textile similar to yours; or that you focus your research on the textile industries and the textile trade routes (and of course what they carried) for the time, either quarter-century or decade, from which you're talking about recreating a garment or a fashion.
                                    It's true that you can always explain something older, but just because something *had* been known two centuries earlier doesn't mean that it is "done" two hundred years after that earlier point in time.
                                    Things fall out of favor. Fads fade; fashions change.
                                    There comes a point when something *that* much older becomes improbable.
                                    If I wanted to satisfy the historian in me ("Faire" probably doesn't know and most of the paying public doesn't notice or care if they do notice) I'd look for written descriptions or for records of contracts with weavers or merchants.

                                    Yseult the Gentle

                                    --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Catalfamo" <catalfamo1190@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The ladies in the lower left. What do you think that fabric is and how was it made? I purchased a 100% silk woven fabric with complex medallion figures in about 4 colors mainly tans, golds, red rust and dark brown and I am pulling back from it now because of my own ignorance about textiles. I really love this fabric because it fits a Southern Mediterranean persona with Moorish influence and I paid more for it than I usually can pay. I even have a woven trim that matches perfectly. I was going to make a zimarra out of it with a gold damask kirtle underneath and rust red and with honeycomb gold silk undersleeves.
                                    > My footnotes are not really adequate. In Vecellio he talks about brocades and damasks and the images show some relatively complex patterns but of course it is not possible to discern the texture of what you are seeing. Dressing Renaissance Florence talks about complex figured silks by the middle of the 15th century. Moda talks about Turkish robes with complex designs that women showed off but once again--nothing extant. Portraits have some fabrics that look like they could be woven figured silks, but they might very well be velvets or slashed garments with lots of embroidery. Yet figured silks would have rotted much quicker. What we have extant seems to be mainly damasks and velvets and linens and wools--but again I'm not an expert.
                                    > It also occurs to me that my sewing is not really good enough to warrant worrying about fabric texture so much. The playtron in me just wants to dress for the RenFair audience and the historian in me wants to crack the whip. Very schizo.
                                    > I am sure there are those on the list who know way more than I do about this. I suppose since this is just for the Ren Fair I should please myself and go for the wow rather than the wearfore.
                                    >
                                    <<snipped>>>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: otsisto
                                    > To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:01 PM
                                    > Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From a Manuscript
                                    >
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/d83r3k
                                    >
                                    > De
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Catherine Christine Catalfamo
                                    I finally got my camera back from my daughter and have posted 2 photos of the silk brocade I am thinking of using for a loose gown and also 3 photos of my
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 30, 2009
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                                      I finally got my camera back from my daughter and have posted 2 photos
                                      of the silk brocade I am thinking of using for a loose gown and also 3
                                      photos of my daughter wearing my interpretation of Moretto di Brescia
                                      Portrait of a Lady, ca. 1535. It is under Catherine of Sicily. Not a
                                      good camicia but the dress was a quickie. My other daughter took the
                                      photos for a Photography Class. There are also some other fabrics I'm
                                      playing with to go with it. I'm ready to hear any and all opinions on
                                      whether it's possible for late 16th century Mediterranean. I'm kind of
                                      going back and forth with it. I have alternatives but for some reason I
                                      really liked that fabric.



                                      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "ghadahfalaknoor"
                                      <LadySAtineDeLaCourcel@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Would you be able to post a picture of the lucious sounding silk
                                      fabric? I ask becasue it is hard to discern by your description weather
                                      thsi would be good for "Italian" style Ottoman turkish, or Persian (
                                      where you have several periods to choose from that are a little
                                      different from one another in their fabric styles, some did not use
                                      "Figures" others mixed figures and medallions in their fabric styles.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      >
                                      > Ghadah Falak Noor
                                      > Formerly Satine de la Courcel
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Dianne
                                      I m ready to hear any and all opinions on whether it s possible for late 16th century Mediterranean. I m kind of going back and forth with it. I have
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                        I'm ready to hear any and all opinions on
                                        whether it's possible for late 16th century Mediterranean. I'm kind of
                                        going back and forth with it. I have alternatives but for some reason I
                                        really liked that fabric.>>

                                        I can see why! Oh, the beading possibilities..

                                        I also love the gold in the "Other brocades and damasks" picture. What droolworthy fabrics!

                                        Laurensa


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • ghadahfalaknoor
                                        WOW!!! very Lucious Fabrics indeed!!! Thanks for Posting these Beading and Embroidery Possibilities for both! The fabrics are georgous. This is what I see
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                          WOW!!! very Lucious Fabrics indeed!!! Thanks for Posting these

                                          Beading and Embroidery Possibilities for both!

                                          The fabrics are georgous.

                                          This is what I see possible uses for the fabrics. please remember it is more from what many would call a "Midlde Eastern" (16th century Ottoman Turkey and Safavid Persia View point than "Italian Ren" View.

                                          The bronze(?)fabric with the huge medallions appears to be victorian in style to me. However, I can easily see a 16th Century Ottoman Turkish coat to be worn over a Venetian gown for court or a ball. what a grand enterance that could be!

                                          There are some portraits of Ottoman Turkish coats worn by European women as "overcoats" I thnk Oonaugh has some on her site.. (also a good place to check for garb Ideas)

                                          Another site to check is Bella's realm of Venus site.

                                          Eleanor de Toledo's portait of her an one of her youngsters (she is in a white dress with huge black and orange(?) Patterning on the gown.. Pearl tassel on her girdle. (sorry the portrait title escapes me and I am not at home where the books are.) I can also see something like that as well with this gown.

                                          have you checked the web gallery of art website.. there are a plethera of possibilites for the red and gold fabrics.

                                          http://www.wga.hu/

                                          These are a few Ideas and only one persons suggestion. Looking forward to hearing what others have to say about the fabric.

                                          Good Luck! happy sewing!
                                          Cheers

                                          In your service
                                          Ghadah
                                        • Brad Moore
                                          snip: I do remember the reference to Turkish zimarri in Moda A Firenze and women wearing them to show off their wealth which is why I latched onto the large
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                            snip:
                                            I do remember the reference to Turkish zimarri in Moda A Firenze and
                                            women wearing them to show off their wealth which is why I latched onto
                                            the large patterned fabric.

                                            There are also references in Dress in the Court of Henry VIII on "Turkey Gowns", worn by the king and others. "By 1547 Henry had garments in a range of foreign styles in his wardrobe, including items in the French, Spanish, Italian and Turkish mode, as well as French and Milan bonnets." (p 12). If anyone knows of any other references or better, images of the Turkish coat in mid-16th century Europe, I would appreciate it. I've been doing research on it, but haven't found a lot of specific references beyond Moda a Firenze and Dress in the Court of Henry VIII.

                                            Brad Moore

                                            "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                                            - J.R.R. Tolkien




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Oonagh ONeill
                                            These are diaries for the turkish coat http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress.htm
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                              These are diaries for the turkish coat
                                              http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress.htm
                                              http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_wedding_dress.htm

                                              Doco for the coat
                                              http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress_doco.htm

                                              Finished Coats
                                              http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venice.htm
                                              http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/index.3.jpg

                                              Be inspired.

                                              Cheers

                                              Deb
                                              (Oonagh)
                                              [Pagar le Pompe]

                                              Oonaghs Own - Venetian Patrician Womens Dress Laurel [from the skin
                                              out] and Accessories of the mid to late sixteenth century
                                              http://www.geocities.com/oonaghsown\


                                              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "ghadahfalaknoor" <LadySAtineDeLaCourcel@...> wrote:
                                              > There are some portraits of Ottoman Turkish coats worn by European women as "overcoats" I thnk Oonaugh has some on her site.. (also a good place to check for garb Ideas)
                                            • Margo Anderson
                                              ... The garment in this portrait: http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/HenryVIII20.jpg looks very similar to the Turkish coats of the period, especially the
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 1, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > >If anyone knows of any other references or better, images of the
                                                > Turkish coat in mid-16th century Europe, I would appreciate it.
                                                >

                                                The garment in this portrait:
                                                http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/HenryVIII20.jpg
                                                looks very similar to the Turkish coats of the period, especially the
                                                short straight sleeves and the horizontal bands on each sides of the
                                                buttons.

                                                Margo

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Chris Catalfamo
                                                Wow! The information and links are flying around my ears and I must take the time to absorb it all. Thanks so much! SCA people are just amazing because each
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 1, 2009
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                                                  Wow! The information and links are flying around my ears and I must take the time to absorb it all. Thanks so much! SCA people are just amazing because each person has his/her specialty.

                                                  I do remember the reference to Turkish zimarri in Moda A Firenze and women wearing them to show off their wealth which is why I latched onto the large patterned fabric. I'm thinking of doing it over a dark madder red gown that matches the little seeds in the medallion. Just a plain red taffeta kirtle with gold trim and jewels. This could also be worn with a 3/4 length zimarra I already have with hanging sleeves in black velvet and black/gold brocade. I'm trying to kind of mix and match within decades this year. Never finished last year's because my dad died and I had a thumb infection. I still have a balzo waiting to be finished.

                                                  Anyway I will be an old rich eccentric duchessa who still dyes her hair black despite the prevalent mode in blond, whose deceased husband made money in textiles in the Mediterranean. Sicily went through so many nationalities in medieval and Renaissance years that the dialect is not even entirely Italian. My Calabrese family spoke a dialect that was not recognized at all when my dad spoke it in Rome when we traveled together. We drop syllables and have Arabic and Greek sounds. Our village still has an Arabic name. I was not even into the Renaissance then--I was there to do Garibaldian research. (Smacks self on head.)


                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: ghadahfalaknoor
                                                  To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:52 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] way early Italian?


                                                  WOW!!! very Lucious Fabrics indeed!!! Thanks for Posting these

                                                  Beading and Embroidery Possibilities for both!

                                                  The fabrics are georgous.

                                                  This is what I see possible uses for the fabrics. please remember it is more from what many would call a "Midlde Eastern" (16th century Ottoman Turkey and Safavid Persia View point than "Italian Ren" View.

                                                  The bronze(?)fabric with the huge medallions appears to be victorian in style to me. However, I can easily see a 16th Century Ottoman Turkish coat to be worn over a Venetian gown for court or a ball. what a grand enterance that could be!

                                                  There are some portraits of Ottoman Turkish coats worn by European women as "overcoats" I thnk Oonaugh has some on her site.. (also a good place to check for garb Ideas)

                                                  Another site to check is Bella's realm of Venus site.

                                                  Eleanor de Toledo's portait of her an one of her youngsters (she is in a white dress with huge black and orange(?) Patterning on the gown.. Pearl tassel on her girdle. (sorry the portrait title escapes me and I am not at home where the books are.) I can also see something like that as well with this gown.

                                                  have you checked the web gallery of art website.. there are a plethera of possibilites for the red and gold fabrics.

                                                  http://www.wga.hu/

                                                  These are a few Ideas and only one persons suggestion. Looking forward to hearing what others have to say about the fabric.

                                                  Good Luck! happy sewing!
                                                  Cheers

                                                  In your service
                                                  Ghadah




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Chris Catalfamo
                                                  The inventories of Mary and Elizabeth have references to all kinds of international gowns but I ve never checked for Turkish or Middle Eastern and there are
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Apr 1, 2009
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                                                    The inventories of Mary and Elizabeth have references to all kinds of international gowns but I've never checked for Turkish or Middle Eastern and there are some pictures that may or may not be accurate and some references to Isabella's court since the Moors were still there until 1492 and some of them had been Christianized. That doesn't back up trade necessarily.

                                                    I actually picked that fabric because I thought it DIDN'T look too Victorian. There were a wide range of Eastern inspired fabrics in the 19th century because of the "opening up" of "the Orient" including some we might consider batik as well as warp prints and border prints and of course paisleys with botehs etc as well as the ever popular Pashmina type woolen for shawls and even gowns and outerwear that began to be mass produced by the 40's and copied in England and Scotland. And there were India cottons. But then I'm not well versed in other textile usage than clothing.

                                                    That's another problem--what would particular patterns, if they existed, be used for and in what fabrics and weights and techniques. I just like to study it so it's a real joy to get all of your links. I'll probably use the fabric since the gown will just be worn at the RenFest. I don't think I would ever want to compete. I'm not that good, not that patient and never liked it when I was younger in American Civil War. I like to see people be authentic because it puts me in the period. I want to feel the period. And I want to do the best I can in whatever limited way that is, to honor the people who give me so much joy to study. I don't want to compete. I also understand that different people have different interests. I am less interested in combat than court although I do like to watch the jousts.

                                                    I'm actually using a changeable silk brocade for a better 1860's dress, but its smaller, more intricate and more floral than Eastern inspiration prints. Also if you read Godey's Ladies Book there was also a fascination for Elizabeth's era and for English and European royalty and the fabrics and styles often mirrored Renaissance styles--which makes it even more complicated. Of course 19th century had printed patterns as well as woven. There was a revival of sorts going on in the middle 19th century especially with another powerful queen and the dawn of modern archaeology.

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: Brad Moore
                                                    To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:20 PM
                                                    Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] was: way early Italian? now: Turkish Zimarri


                                                    snip:
                                                    I do remember the reference to Turkish zimarri in Moda A Firenze and
                                                    women wearing them to show off their wealth which is why I latched onto
                                                    the large patterned fabric.

                                                    There are also references in Dress in the Court of Henry VIII on "Turkey Gowns", worn by the king and others. "By 1547 Henry had garments in a range of foreign styles in his wardrobe, including items in the French, Spanish, Italian and Turkish mode, as well as French and Milan bonnets." (p 12). If anyone knows of any other references or better, images of the Turkish coat in mid-16th century Europe, I would appreciate it. I've been doing research on it, but haven't found a lot of specific references beyond Moda a Firenze and Dress in the Court of Henry VIII.

                                                    Brad Moore

                                                    "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                                                    - J.R.R. Tolkien

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Chris Catalfamo
                                                    And I wonder if we are also looking at the inspiration for the ropa and loose gown in general. Since the Moors were still in Spain until 1492 and it has been
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Apr 2, 2009
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                                                      And I wonder if we are also looking at the inspiration for the ropa and loose gown in general. Since the Moors were still in Spain until 1492 and it has been inferred, since Isabella was a warrior queen, that her court was heavily influenced by Moorish culture.
                                                      Certainly what still exists in Spain suggests that. And Southern Italy was also under Moorish control on and off.

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: Margo Anderson
                                                      To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:17 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] was: way early Italian? now: Turkish Zimarri


                                                      > >If anyone knows of any other references or better, images of the
                                                      > Turkish coat in mid-16th century Europe, I would appreciate it.
                                                      >

                                                      The garment in this portrait:
                                                      http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/HenryVIII20.jpg
                                                      looks very similar to the Turkish coats of the period, especially the
                                                      short straight sleeves and the horizontal bands on each sides of the
                                                      buttons.

                                                      Margo

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Chris Catalfamo
                                                      Ok--the inspiration gown. What is she wearing underneath? At first glance almost looks like an 1870 s gown. Is it a doublet? ... From: Oonagh ONeill To:
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Apr 3, 2009
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                                                        Ok--the inspiration gown. What is she wearing underneath? At first glance almost looks like an 1870's gown. Is it a doublet?


                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: Oonagh ONeill
                                                        To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:13 AM
                                                        Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: way early Italian?


                                                        These are diaries for the turkish coat
                                                        http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress.htm
                                                        http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_wedding_dress.htm

                                                        Doco for the coat
                                                        http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress_doco.htm

                                                        Finished Coats
                                                        http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/turkish_coat_for_venice.htm
                                                        http://geocities.com/oonaghsown/index.3.jpg

                                                        Be inspired.

                                                        Cheers

                                                        Deb
                                                        (Oonagh)
                                                        [Pagar le Pompe]

                                                        Oonaghs Own - Venetian Patrician Womens Dress Laurel [from the skin
                                                        out] and Accessories of the mid to late sixteenth century
                                                        http://www.geocities.com/oonaghsown\

                                                        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "ghadahfalaknoor" <LadySAtineDeLaCourcel@...> wrote:
                                                        > There are some portraits of Ottoman Turkish coats worn by European women as "overcoats" I thnk Oonaugh has some on her site.. (also a good place to check for garb Ideas)




                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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