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Boteh-paisley designs

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  • Catherine Christine Catalfamo
    I recently bought two silk woven fabrics that have eastern and paisley designs (botehs). These designs appeared in textiles that were exported from the East as
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 15, 2009
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      I recently bought two silk woven fabrics that have eastern and paisley
      designs (botehs). These designs appeared in textiles that were exported
      from the East as early as 1500. I am still wary of using them even
      though I am shooting for Southern Mediterranean (Calabria and Sicily
      influenced by Spain and Moorish influence in late period.) My plans for
      them include possibly ropas and/or a doublet ensemble. Any opinions?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_(design)
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      ... It would really depend on what your fabric looks like, compared to period fabric with boteh, some of which I have seen, and modern paiselys. Can you post
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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        Unsigned wrote:
        >I recently bought two silk woven fabrics that have eastern and paisley
        >designs (botehs). These designs appeared in textiles that were exported
        >from the East as early as 1500. I am still wary of using them even
        >though I am shooting for Southern Mediterranean (Calabria and Sicily
        >influenced by Spain and Moorish influence in late period.) My plans for
        >them include possibly ropas and/or a doublet ensemble. Any opinions?
        >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_(design)

        It would really depend on what your fabric looks like, compared to period fabric with boteh, some of which I have seen, and modern paiselys. Can you post pictures of your fabrics so we can see? Then it will be easier to comment.

        Fiametta Basilio
      • Chris Catalfamo
        No camera. All have been stolen by 2Oish daughters. Let me see if I can locate them on the websites. ... From: lilinah@earthlink.net To:
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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          No camera. All have been stolen by 2Oish daughters. Let me see if I can locate them on the websites.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: lilinah@...
          To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 6:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Boteh-paisley designs


          Unsigned wrote:
          >I recently bought two silk woven fabrics that have eastern and paisley
          >designs (botehs). These designs appeared in textiles that were exported
          >from the East as early as 1500. I am still wary of using them even
          >though I am shooting for Southern Mediterranean (Calabria and Sicily
          >influenced by Spain and Moorish influence in late period.) My plans for
          >them include possibly ropas and/or a doublet ensemble. Any opinions?
          >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_(design)

          It would really depend on what your fabric looks like, compared to period fabric with boteh, some of which I have seen, and modern paiselys. Can you post pictures of your fabrics so we can see? Then it will be easier to comment.

          Fiametta Basilio




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Catherine Christine Catalfamo
          What are the footnotes on the pieces you have seen? (country, date, usage, etc.) One is a black silk brocade. I wanted larger figures. There are botehs and
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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            What are the footnotes on the pieces you have seen? (country, date,
            usage, etc.) One is a black silk brocade. I wanted larger figures.
            There are botehs and medallions evenly spaced and about 4 inches long.
            All black. I'll keep looking. The other is a golden and wine silk
            damask--not botehs--but Turkish looking medallions. I may have them in
            My Pictures but would have to find a way to post.
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            ... Ah, technology, ain t it wonderful! Most of my information is on another computer, and I cannot access it easily. When I can, I ll post some actual data.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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              Unsigned wrote:
              >What are the footnotes on the pieces you have seen? (country, date,
              >usage, etc.) One is a black silk brocade. I wanted larger figures.
              >There are botehs and medallions evenly spaced and about 4 inches long.
              >All black. I'll keep looking.

              Ah, technology, ain't it wonderful! Most of my information is on another computer, and I cannot access it easily. When I can, I'll post some actual data. For now I'll have to rely on my memory.

              As far as the fabric went, it was Persian and had the boteh motifs in nice neat orderly rows, all facing the same way. So the fabric definitely had a "top" and a "bottom". Yours sounds like it is plausible in its arrangement.

              I don't remember the date, but it was late SCA-period. While I try to keep my research before 1601, the first year of the 17th century, I can't help myself from wandering a little way into the 17th. So the Persian fabric, if not 16th century, was early 17th.

              I cannot for the life of me recall the colors. My memory, which is probably faulty, has the boteh as outlines in deep red on a silvery field, but this could be totally wrong. I will definitely have to look this up when I can access the other computer and post the real data.

              Black is not a color much used in Near and Middle Eastern fabrics. It has certain connotations, mourning being one. The other is that it is the color of the 'Abbasid dynasty, although outside of Arabic-speaking lands, this might not matter much. However, besides considering supersaturated indigo as "black", they also had black dye, and since fabric was made for trade, it's possible.

              > The other is a golden and wine silk
              > damask--not botehs--but Turkish looking medallions. I may have them in
              > My Pictures but would have to find a way to post.

              The colors sound perfect. I will assume that when you say "Turkish" you mean "Ottoman", and not Seljuk, a dynasty that lasted for almost 300 years beginning around 1037, or any of the other significant Turkish groups. Are the motifs medallions or ogees? Ogees are pretty typical in both Persian and Ottoman textiles. The biggest difference between Persian and Ottoman is the matter of scale. Persian motifs are smaller, often delicate, sometimes quite tiny. Ottoman motifs are fairly large and often huge. There's one Sultan's kaftan in which the enormous motif repeats somewhat less that 3 times from hem to shoulder, and another in which the motif repeats only 1-1/2 times, although most are not quite so gigantic.

              It would be great if you eventually find the pictures. I'm sure we all love caressing fabric with out eyes.

              Fiametta Basilio
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... Ooo... Eeeew... what a grim typo. I meant with our eyes. Sorry about that. Fiametta Basilio
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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                I wrote:
                > It would be great if you eventually find the pictures. I'm sure we all love
                > caressing fabric with out eyes.

                Ooo... Eeeew... what a grim typo. I meant "with our eyes." Sorry about that.

                Fiametta Basilio
              • Chris Catalfamo
                Actually great typo! Because we like the hand of the fabric too. I am very fascinated by what you know about Near Eastern textiles and would like to read
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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                  Actually great typo! Because we like the hand of the fabric too. I am very fascinated by what you know about "Near Eastern" textiles and would like to read more. I am virtually ignorant and only used "Turkish" because Moda a Firenze used it to distinguish among zimarras.
                  Here's the website one of the fabrics came from http://myworld.ebay.com/millhousesilks/?_trksid=p3911.c0.m198 but I bought all they had so I will definitely have to take a photo of that one. The other was a black silk jacquard from Bindi at B.R. Exports (exclusive silks larger website). Very hard to search. Putting in black silk jacquard doesnt bring up black or silk or jacquard. The one I wanted didn't have dominant botehs but rather an organized elongated medallion figure with smaller botehs in between. The one I ended up getting has equal medium size figure. Ok--I have to get another camera and hide the darned thing.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: lilinah@...
                  To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Boteh-paisley designs


                  I wrote:
                  > It would be great if you eventually find the pictures. I'm sure we all love
                  > caressing fabric with out eyes.

                  Ooo... Eeeew... what a grim typo. I meant "with our eyes." Sorry about that.

                  Fiametta Basilio





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Chris Catalfamo
                  This is one of the brocades at B.R. Exports that is similar to the one I have, except there is a boteh and another oval figure. These are much bigger than they
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 27, 2009
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                    This is one of the brocades at B.R. Exports that is similar to the one I have, except there is a boteh and another oval figure. These are much bigger than they appear--about 3-4".
                    http://www.puresilks.biz/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=730

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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