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extra RE: Italian sleeve question

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  • otsisto
    By the way here is to new to me pictures by Giovanni Cariani http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Giovanni_Cariani_005.jpg
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 30, 2008
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      By the way here is to new to me pictures by Giovanni Cariani

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Giovanni_Cariani_005.jpg
      http://tinyurl.com/a8w8zk

      http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Giovanni_Cariani_004.jpg

      The seduction picture looks as if it could be either
      a. fringe but it looks to stiff.
      b. separate piece sleeve cap that has the edge snipped and bound.
      c. sleeve cap created from the upper portion of the main sleeve. Think
      reverse seam where the pleated flap is turned out and the edge it bound.

      De

      -----Original Message-----
      Greetings to the list,

      I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been
      entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made
      someday, in my mind.

      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG

      These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then
      cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the
      elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice
      is with the same treatment but is flat, yes?

      Thanks for any input to my question.

      Lyonet
      lurker 99.9% of the time
    • Bella
      From: otsisto otsisto@socket.net Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] extra RE: Italian sleeve question http://tinyurl.com/a8w8zk
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 30, 2008
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        From: otsisto otsisto@...
        Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] extra RE: Italian sleeve question

        http://tinyurl.com/a8w8zk

        <<<<<

        This is one of my favourite portraits! I looked for a larger version of this for ages, and found it a month or two back (even posted about it on Livejournal because I was so excited! LOL) It's not on the website yet, but it will be once I get around to uploading the pages I'm working on. :-)

        Happy New Year everyone!


        Bella



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      • otsisto
        I don t think that it is embroidery but a similar colored brocade or a fabric that had an edge that had a gold thread design interwoven. this would make sense
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 30, 2008
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          I don't think that it is embroidery but a similar colored brocade or a
          fabric that had an edge that had a gold thread design interwoven. this would
          make sense with the two part sleeve and that the bodice looks to be pleated
          as well to match the cuff ruffle and the sleeve cap.
          Side note: She seems to be wearing a shift under her camicia.

          De



          -----Original Message-----
          Greetings to the list,

          I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been
          entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made
          someday, in my mind.

          http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG

          These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then
          cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the
          elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice
          is with the same treatment but is flat, yes?

          Thanks for any input to my question.

          Lyonet
          lurker 99.9% of the time
        • Lyonet
          De, Oh, the options I am now seeing dancing in my head for that sleeve head. Thanks for another take on this painting. And! Thanks for the links to these other
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 30, 2008
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            De,

            Oh, the options I am now seeing dancing in my head for that sleeve head.
            Thanks for another take on this painting.
            And!
            Thanks for the links to these other paintings.
            I just bought some neutral and purple striped linen yesterday that will be a wonderful recreation of the first link you included. And I am pretty sure I have a small peice of brocaded stuff that will work for the bodice. If not, it is a perfect excuse to buy just a bit of some really fabulous damask or brocade at a price I would not usually spend.

            I am hopping up and down (in my mind) with delight at the prospect of making myself two new dresses.

            Thanks so very Much.

            Lyonet
            ---- otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:
            > By the way here is to new to me pictures by Giovanni Cariani
            >
            > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Giovanni_Cariani_005.jpg
            > http://tinyurl.com/a8w8zk
            >
            > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Giovanni_Cariani_004.jpg
            >
            > The seduction picture looks as if it could be either
            > a. fringe but it looks to stiff.
            > b. separate piece sleeve cap that has the edge snipped and bound.
            > c. sleeve cap created from the upper portion of the main sleeve. Think
            > reverse seam where the pleated flap is turned out and the edge it bound.
            >
            > De
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > Greetings to the list,
            >
            > I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been
            > entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made
            > someday, in my mind.
            >
            > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG
            >
            > These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then
            > cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the
            > elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice
            > is with the same treatment but is flat, yes?
            >
            > Thanks for any input to my question.
            >
            > Lyonet
            > lurker 99.9% of the time
            >
            >
          • otsisto
            ...
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 1, 2009
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              -----Original Message-----
              <<<<I thought the thinner looking area was a trimming, but since such
              trimmings were usually embroidered or made of lace, it's more likely that
              you're right and the transparency difference indicates an underlying
              undergarment of some kind.

              I find that interesting. I know that people (such as Oonagh) have theorized
              that late period Italian gowns were worn with corsets, and that there had to
              be either a second shift underneath the corset, or, in the alternative, that
              the camisia lay under the corset and a false front imitating a camisia was
              pinned on top, to show underneath the lacing and hide the corset. However,
              I'd never thought that the gowns of the 1530s (such as the one under
              discussion seemed to be) particularly looked as though they were worn with a
              corset.

              Thanks for your explanation.
              --
              Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>>>>>>

              In my opinion, I don't think that she has a PoB or corset. I think that the
              gown is the main support but I think that maybe some shifts in this period
              may have been laced in the back or sides to make it a bit snug to add some
              support, especially if the woman was endowed with vast tracks of land. :)
              The shift under the camicia makes a bit of sense with for modesty. Though
              one has to wonder about modesty when they see this painting.

              http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarianiAlbani.jpg

              Is it a bordello (sp?)

              De
            • Amanda
              http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarianiAlbani.jpg Is it a bordello (sp?) De WWell... it is called the Four Courtesans and the three
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 4, 2009
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                http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CarianiAlbani.jpg

                Is it a bordello (sp?)

                De


                WWell... it is called the Four Courtesans and the three Gentlemen...
                I doubt very much these ladies were worried about modesty.
                I also think the dresses were taylored for them with lower cut bodices or even without a bodice or the front of it.
                I am quite sure housewife and mother in American suburbia does not go to Madame X to buy her outfit for the PTA meeting and at the same token, the girls walking down the street in platform shoes and almost no clothing don't care to wear Laura Ashley.
                I always wondered about these very provocative dresses in the Venitian paintings... and I think as courtesans were often portrayed we tend to think showing so much boob is ok... It might be ok for us... but for a Venitian noblewoman? I wonder sometimes.
                We are finally coming to a point where it is ok to describe a painting as "Venitian Courtesan" while during the time Rosita Pisetsky was writting her big costuming books, most of the courtesans are described as "Venitian Lady or Venitian Noble Lady" ...

                Amanda.

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