Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Working Theory

Expand Messages
  • jubileel_insaneone
    Ladies and Gents, I know the whole petticoats vs farthingales has probably been brought up before when it comes to the 16th c Italian dress. However, I came
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 2, 2008
      Ladies and Gents,

      I know the whole petticoats vs farthingales has probably been brought
      up before when it comes to the 16th c Italian dress. However, I came
      across a quote that got me thinking and puts a third option on the
      table. On page 131 in QEI's wardrobe unlock'd, there is a paragraph
      that states "In 1565 Walter Fyshe made 'a vencian gowne of crimsen
      velvet the ground satten for Elizabethe Knowles layed with iij silver
      laces the skyrtes lyned with buckeram and cotton with fustian in the
      bodies and frise in the ruffes the slevis drawne out with silver
      Sarceonet'."

      It's the line "skyrtes lyned with buckeram" that gets my attention.
      It would make more sense, to me, to use that as a way to "puff" the
      skirts out that using a gazillion petticoats (it's Italy, it's warm).
      It would also explain the sparse evidence (if any?) for farthingales
      being used in Italy. Buckram would be stiff enough to give a bit of a
      puff without the need for petticoats or a farthingale.

      Any other thoughts? Anyone heard of this being tried before?

      -Isabella
    • Arianna Steffia dOvste
      Just more questions. I am curious what silver Sarceonet is... -arianna
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 3, 2008
        Just more questions.
        I am curious what silver Sarceonet' is...
        -arianna
      • Arianna Steffia dOvste
        Ah Ha! I found it MYSELF! lol! it s basically taffeta! woo hoo! Knowledge! -a
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 3, 2008
          Ah Ha! I found it MYSELF! lol!
          it's basically taffeta!
          woo hoo! Knowledge!
          -a

          --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Arianna Steffia dOvste"
          <stephehawk@...> wrote:
          >
          > Just more questions.
          > I am curious what silver Sarceonet' is...
          > -arianna
          >
        • If you need to know Ill tell you
          I would whole-heartedly agree with this working theory, with the caveat that a bit of investigation be done into what they were refering to as
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 3, 2008
            I would whole-heartedly agree with this working theory, with the
            caveat that a bit of investigation be done into what they were
            refering to as buckeram.......because there is a part of my memory
            that is jangeling making me think that their version was markedly
            different from what we contemporarily think of as buckram. One of the
            reasons I have always thought that rope stiffened, quilted, or
            buckeram re-enforced petticoats made more sense within the context of
            dresses that Elizabeth had "in the Italian style" is that her
            exposure to Italian Styles would have been colored almost exclusively
            by the fact that she was seeing examples and being given gifts from
            the Venetian Embassadorial Envoy....so as a result most of what she
            was thinking of as Italian would have been cut along Venetian fashion
            lines.

            Now before everyone jumps on me and argues the possability of other
            styles trickling into Elizabeths court from other parts of Italy; I
            do not argue that it is quite possible. I just happen to think it
            less likly because of the larger picture.

            What you wore, much more so than today, defined your politics as well
            as your economic status, and the elite were more subtle and adept at
            interpurting shades of color, types of trim, cut of garments etc as
            statements of who you were allied with, whom your family were sworn
            to uphold, or what religion you favored.

            With that in mind, Venice was rather more autonomous in its politics
            and religous observances...and certainly more pragmatic and
            businesslike in both....such that despite the Pope's hatred of
            Elizabeth's policy and position....they did not move in lockstep with
            the Pope as he prodded Spain into fighting with Elizabeth....they
            maintained diplomatic relations with England when the rest of italy
            was pretty much under the Pope's and the Medici's thumb( and given
            that in the early years of Elizabeth's reign the Pope was actually
            descended out of the Medici Clan...it made it al lthe more difficult
            to separate the rest of Italy's politics from those of the Vatican.)

            so through that lense, I feel comfortable in my idea that the styles
            that would have been most readily accepted and worn with gusto in the
            English Court that came from Italy would be those most
            visibly "venetian" in cut since there would be no unpleasant
            overtones of connection to the pope and his anti-elizabeth stance by
            wearing such styles...particularly in Elizabeth's physical presence
            since she was VERY conscious of these little nuances in those around
            her.

            and this is very convolutedly getting me back to my point about the
            buckeram underskirts and the corded or quilted underskirts....I have
            actually been to venice...for Carnivale....and let me tell
            you....there is no way in the world you are getting into a gondola
            without running the high risk of a tumble into a canal if you are
            trying to do so in a farthingale. Should you manage this task
            somehow...you then are prevented from sitting either comfortably or
            gracefully in said gondola by the aforementioned farthingale, and the
            chances that your frock is going to become mired in the canal water
            either while you are in transit to your destination or while exiting
            the gondola...when you again run the risk of a fall into canal
            water.....suffice it to say something more "collapsible" such as a
            buckeram stiffened underskirt or a rope stiffened or quilted
            underskirt to give volume but not impede movement would be vitally
            necessary in that environment.....thats not even getting into the
            logistics of some of the "not as wide as your arm span" streets that
            you would have to navigate as well.








            "skyrtes lyned with buckeram" that gets my attention.
            > It would make more sense, to me, to use that as a way to "puff" the
            > skirts out that using a gazillion petticoats (it's Italy, it's
            warm).
            > It would also explain the sparse evidence (if any?) for
            farthingales
            > being used in Italy. Buckram would be stiff enough to give a bit
            of a
            > puff without the need for petticoats or a farthingale.
            >
            > Any other thoughts? Anyone heard of this being tried before?
            >
            > -Isabella
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.