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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] 1530's skirts

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  • otsisto
    I will try to answer this but my brain is trying to take a vacation to Hawaii of late. :) Yes there is a difference not too major but enough to see that you
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 1, 2008
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      I will try to answer this but my brain is trying to take a vacation to
      Hawaii of late. :)
      Yes there is a difference not too major but enough to see that you could
      possibly identify the city of the woman in the painting.
      On the Realm of Venus site, it is mainly Venice. On the Festive Attyre site
      it is mainly Florence. If you compare pictures of the era, you will see the
      difference. The two cities were not know to be friendly with each other. You
      would need to read up on the politics of that era to understand why there
      were differences.
      This is later then 1530, it is 1580 but shows a side back lacing.
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/wkclass/wk1.html

      Sites
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/index.html
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/wardrobe.htm

      Portrait, Florentine, 1516, brocade
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/secondflor/secflor1.html
      Lacing may be side, side back, or back
      Florence, 1530-33
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/secondflor/secflor3.html
      Florence 1530-32, forearm sleeve are removable
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/secondflor/secflor31.html

      Venice, 1530
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LICINIO3.JPG
      Venice 1533
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LicinioPOAL1533.JPG
      Compare the sleeves to Florence. Also, you are more likely to find in Venice
      a front laced bodice then you are in Florence.

      As for "trim" on hem, I have seen trim or in some cases something that is
      referred to as "guards" and can be found on Florentine and Venetian skirt
      hems.

      On a side note, some have theorized that this gown (1511 Vecellio) is a
      gown/coat
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/TitianFresco1511.JPG
      and that there is a kirtle
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/NMT.jpg
      underneath. It is thought to only be worn outdoors, but then you have
      portraits like this
      http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tizian_073.jpg
      the above are Titian
      The first site is detail from
      http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tizian_025.jpg

      -----Original Message-----
      Sorry to respond so late. RenFair is on and I ALWAYS have sewing to do at
      the last minute.

      Actually I'm winging it on this gown. I actually started with the 1530-40
      Vecellio but since it is an era preceding him and I don't have a footnote, I
      don't trust the sleeve. Already made my version of the Moretto
      Portrait of a Woman for my daughter last year but it's front opening and
      Venice so this didn't come up. This gown needs the damask figure in the
      front and I didn't realize that back lacing was not correct. Never having
      tried back lacing, I can't visualize how it works yet.. I think I'm tending
      toward Florentine but wanted a complex upper and lower sleeve some panes
      maybe--I'm not comfortable yet with slashing even though I bought tools for
      it 2 years ago.
      I wasn't being precise about "side backs" because in mid 19th (my
      first era) a side back is actually a part of a back piece, either separate
      or "faked" for decorative effect. In Ren, the Margo bodice is the only
      pattern I have has a "side back" seam. I interpreted that as just a side
      seam pushed further toward the back. IN other words, my comparative view was
      not a modern side seam. I never learned modern. I went straight to 19th
      century and both side seams and shoulder seams are further toward the back.
      So I misunderstood.
      The image I'm referring to is in Moda a Firenze--the women kneeling as
      the procession goes by. Almost all of them have what looks to be their
      skirts pinned up slightly to the rear of the lacing. You can see contrasting
      underskirts. I guess
      Were styles that distinct in Florence or Venice? I mean--didn't they
      travel? Italian is very distinct from other European countries in the 20's
      and 30's but what characterizes or differentiates Florence from Venice? And
      how do we tell that with the small subset of portraits distinctly from the
      20's and 30's?
      Also in terms of trim--how bad is it for me to use different colored
      base with gold pattern trim on a 30's gown? The evidence seems to suggest
      that where trim embroidery is metallic gold, it's either embroidered right
      on the dress or on bands of the same color.

      ----- Original Message -----

      Venetian, 1530 portraits
      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/artgallery2c.htm
      Florentine 1525 -1550
      http://festiveattyre.com/research/secondflor/portfolio.html

      De
    • catalfamo1190@comcast.net
      You re right--I do need to study the era more if I m going to have a persona from it. I don t have Italian as a serious research language although I had to
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 1, 2008
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        You're right--I do need to study the era more if I'm going to have a persona from it. I don't have Italian as a serious research language although I had to take it for a year to minor in Modern Italy in grad school. I don't have an eye for the era yet and although I have downloaded most of those images already and "studied" them, I wasn't putting them into the proper context.. The study needs to be more linear I think. I was looking at general characteristics "of the 30's" rather than putting them in a developmental timeline for each republic.

        Thank you for pointing out differences. I wasn't paying attention. Of course one can't escape Realm of VENUS, for Venetian, but I didn't realize until yesterday that Festive Attyre was looking more intently at Florence. I wish I had been doing Ren when I was in Italy--twice--but my orientation during that time was the Risorgimento.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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