RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] 1530's skirts
- I will try to answer this but my brain is trying to take a vacation to
Hawaii of late. :)
Yes there is a difference not too major but enough to see that you could
possibly identify the city of the woman in the painting.
On the Realm of Venus site, it is mainly Venice. On the Festive Attyre site
it is mainly Florence. If you compare pictures of the era, you will see the
difference. The two cities were not know to be friendly with each other. You
would need to read up on the politics of that era to understand why there
This is later then 1530, it is 1580 but shows a side back lacing.
Portrait, Florentine, 1516, brocade
Lacing may be side, side back, or back
Florence 1530-32, forearm sleeve are removable
Compare the sleeves to Florence. Also, you are more likely to find in Venice
a front laced bodice then you are in Florence.
As for "trim" on hem, I have seen trim or in some cases something that is
referred to as "guards" and can be found on Florentine and Venetian skirt
On a side note, some have theorized that this gown (1511 Vecellio) is a
and that there is a kirtle
underneath. It is thought to only be worn outdoors, but then you have
portraits like this
the above are Titian
The first site is detail from
Sorry to respond so late. RenFair is on and I ALWAYS have sewing to do at
the last minute.
Actually I'm winging it on this gown. I actually started with the 1530-40
Vecellio but since it is an era preceding him and I don't have a footnote, I
don't trust the sleeve. Already made my version of the Moretto
Portrait of a Woman for my daughter last year but it's front opening and
Venice so this didn't come up. This gown needs the damask figure in the
front and I didn't realize that back lacing was not correct. Never having
tried back lacing, I can't visualize how it works yet.. I think I'm tending
toward Florentine but wanted a complex upper and lower sleeve some panes
maybe--I'm not comfortable yet with slashing even though I bought tools for
it 2 years ago.
I wasn't being precise about "side backs" because in mid 19th (my
first era) a side back is actually a part of a back piece, either separate
or "faked" for decorative effect. In Ren, the Margo bodice is the only
pattern I have has a "side back" seam. I interpreted that as just a side
seam pushed further toward the back. IN other words, my comparative view was
not a modern side seam. I never learned modern. I went straight to 19th
century and both side seams and shoulder seams are further toward the back.
So I misunderstood.
The image I'm referring to is in Moda a Firenze--the women kneeling as
the procession goes by. Almost all of them have what looks to be their
skirts pinned up slightly to the rear of the lacing. You can see contrasting
underskirts. I guess
Were styles that distinct in Florence or Venice? I mean--didn't they
travel? Italian is very distinct from other European countries in the 20's
and 30's but what characterizes or differentiates Florence from Venice? And
how do we tell that with the small subset of portraits distinctly from the
20's and 30's?
Also in terms of trim--how bad is it for me to use different colored
base with gold pattern trim on a 30's gown? The evidence seems to suggest
that where trim embroidery is metallic gold, it's either embroidered right
on the dress or on bands of the same color.
----- Original Message -----
Venetian, 1530 portraits
Florentine 1525 -1550
- You're right--I do need to study the era more if I'm going to have a persona from it. I don't have Italian as a serious research language although I had to take it for a year to minor in Modern Italy in grad school. I don't have an eye for the era yet and although I have downloaded most of those images already and "studied" them, I wasn't putting them into the proper context.. The study needs to be more linear I think. I was looking at general characteristics "of the 30's" rather than putting them in a developmental timeline for each republic.
Thank you for pointing out differences. I wasn't paying attention. Of course one can't escape Realm of VENUS, for Venetian, but I didn't realize until yesterday that Festive Attyre was looking more intently at Florence. I wish I had been doing Ren when I was in Italy--twice--but my orientation during that time was the Risorgimento.
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