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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Opinions on the Carpaccio Painting.

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  • IRIS ROBERTSON
    Hi, I m Catalina and I am new to this list. Forgive me for butting in, but I ve looked at the portrait in question for several years now, and I really don t
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 11, 2008
      Hi, I'm Catalina and I am new to this list. Forgive me for butting in, but I've looked at the portrait in question for several years now, and I really don't think it is all one dress. Notice the area below the mantello where both the dress front and the underdress side are both in shadow. The break in color lines is just too defined to be a fold in the cloth. Also, there is above the mantello, at the back, an area of dark gray/silver running the length of the her back from hair to bottom.

      The one question I have about it is: how did the false sleeve that covers the forearm attach to the sleevelette above it? Or, did it attach? The lower one does not look like a forearm sleevelette to me, but seems to be cut in the style of a full sleeve and worn under the upper arm sleeve.

      Cheers
      Catalina

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • alluwolf
      I haven t been following this one too well, but if they were making a visit to someone, they would have worn their overdress, correct? It was more just in
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 11, 2008
        I haven't been following this one too well, but if they were making
        a visit to someone, they would have worn their overdress, correct?
        It was more just in their own home they wouldn't, official visits
        and stuff they would wear an overdress. So while we can tell if
        someone is inside, we can't really tell the nature of that inside,
        can we? So she could be wearing a dress and overdress. I don't
        think I've seen anything split open over the undergarment though!

        I have seen pleanty of dresses split down the side totally,
        overdresses though and a bit earlier than 1490. (70s and 80s). So
        it was done, and it was done to paint peope in pale outerclotning
        (pleanty of creams and pale blue etc).
        I really can't tell with that onethough, but it is very defined to
        be a shading mark. If it is split I would say it was an overdress.

        Kath

        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda"
        <dakea@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings to the List.
        >
        > I recently taught a class on Venitian Dress of the Carpaccio Era.
        >
        > I used to teach an overview of the High Waisted Italian Gown but I
        found it to be too broad a subject and I decided to focus this class
        on a much smaller period in Italian history and I picked the period
        between 1490 to 1525.
        >
        > I focused in this class in the paintings of the Life of Saint
        Ursula, and in one of the paintings, there is a details which shows
        a young woman dressed in silvery gray and you can see the painting
        here http://www.wga.hu just go to Carpaccio and view Arrival of the
        English Ambassadors.
        >
        > The details shows as young woman indoors in the company of a man
        while a old woman sits on some steps.
        >
        > My transparency did not show the painting as well as I would like
        it to... but I could clearly see that it was a gamurra.
        >
        > One of the students pointed out that the dress looked like it was
        open on the sides... with the chemise showing. I disagreed saying
        that if that was the case her dress would have only the front part
        of the skirt attached to the bodice. Soon another student, who is
        actually pretty knowledgeable on Italian fashions, having taught
        many classes herself, said that the dress could be a "tabard" dress
        like a pegnoir only worn inside the houses.
        >
        > Now, I still stand firm that this dress is a gamurra and the
        difference in light makes the silvery fabric look white, and that
        Carpaccio was only using light and shade.
        >
        > My question is ... Is there such a dress in italian fashion that
        looks like a gamurra but is only opened on sides all the way to the
        bottom?
        > Is there in Venice of that period a house dress which would only
        have a front and a bodice like an apron, and only worn indoors?
        >
        > I have researched a truck load of italian fashions, and even read
        Levi Pisetsky in Italian, but I never came accross a description or
        a picture of such dresses, but not wanting to be inflexible I
        decided to investigate further and see if I was wrong and the
        students right.
        >
        > Can you give me your opinion?
        >
        > Amanda
        > OL Calontir
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bella
        Having taken another look at the image in question ( http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/1ursula/1/14ambass.jpg ) I can see that well-defined line between the
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 11, 2008
          Having taken another look at the image in question ( http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/1ursula/1/14ambass.jpg ) I can see that well-defined line between the darker fabric at the front and the lighter at the side that many of you have mentioned. Hmmm. Perhaps it is possible that it is an open-at-the-sides over-dress, however the only two other images that clearly show this style contradict what we see here. These are the images referenced previously for the existence of the apron-like over-dress: ( http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/VENETIANCOURTESANS.jpg ) and ( http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg ) In both these images the apron-like open-at-the-sides over-dress is *shorter* than the dress beneath it by several inches, and is in addition trimmed in some way. However, in the first image, the darker shade/proposed over-dress is clearly exactly the same length, and completely untrimmed. It is enough for me to
          doubt that what is being depicted is an apron-like over-dress, but I can see and understand the reason and temptation to see it differently.



          Bella


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        • Arianna Steffia dOvste
          my two centavos. I think the young girl is wearing a light blue/silver overdress... satiny maybe with a darker floor length apron. I also looked at the older
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
            my two centavos.
            I think the young girl is wearing a light blue/silver overdress... satiny maybe with a darker
            floor length apron. I also looked at the older lady and to my computer screen it seems she is
            wearing a dark dress with a very long dark apron as well. it just seems kinda crumpled up
            from the hem of the dress. I think they are just showing they can have elegant long aprons in
            a rich dark fabric.

            okay... maybe that is three centavos...
            -a
            --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Having taken another look at the image in question (
            http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/1ursula/1/14ambass.jpg ) I can see that well-defined
            line between the darker fabric at the front and the lighter at the side that many of you
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