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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Chemise vs a shift

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  • Suzi
    Jennifer from a Festive Attyre has a lovely article on it that you may find useful http://festiveattyre.com/research/silk.html ... the way of Annora s question
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 8, 2007
      Jennifer from a Festive Attyre has a lovely article on it that you
      may find useful

      http://festiveattyre.com/research/silk.html

      --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris
      Catalfamo" <catalfamo1190@...> wrote:
      >
      > I also have a different camicia question and I don't want to get in
      the way of Annora's question so scroll to her if you have an answer
      for her.
      > . I want to make this camicia.
      > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Lady1535.JPG
      > and a very lightweight wool version of the gown in a deeper rust
      red for my daughter who has a Fair persona loosely based on the late
      16th century poet Aemilia Bassano.
      > The fair is 1530's--Henry and Anne-- so she is only using
      the "daughter of a court musician" aspect of Bassano. Although I
      have taffeta that's pretty close to this, I doubt whether the fair
      folks will let her do silk. Bassaons first came to Italy to perform
      in Henry VIII's court they came from the town of Bassano, which was a
      center of the silk, wool, leather and wood industry by the late 15th
      century. But in England court musicians, according to some of the
      Tudor folks, were not very well paid. In reality, Aemilia was "kept"
      by an English lord "in high style" but that may be too many footnotes
      for a Ren Fair. When she became pregnant she was married off to avoid
      a scandal.I had this gown in mind when orange rust taffeta came up on
      sale online and it's a pretty good match. The gown doesn't look that
      hard, but none of the camicia patterns available online open down
      the front. How is it cut out and how might I change the available
      patterns in terms of cutting?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Susan Griner
      If you are talking about dresses from this area and time period, http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/portfolio.html I spent some time at the National
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 9, 2007
        If you are talking about dresses from this area and time period,
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/portfolio.html
        I spent some time at the National Gallery and looking through books, trying to figure out
        what the shifts look like and how the edges were finishedand I think it depends on how
        much of the chemise is see under the center front lacing.
        If you look closely at the necklines here
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor2.html
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor10.html
        I am seeing only a few tucks in the neckline. I get these same tucks when I put a tunic
        style shift on under a fitted bodice. For this style I believe that an ungathered T tunic style
        shift is appropriate.
        The sleeves don't need to be very big to give nice poofs through the sleeve slits
        For puffs like those seen on the kneeling woman and the girl in blue behind her,
        I find that sleeves with a circumference of 20" works well (BTW my upper arm
        circumference is 16 1/2" and my forearm is 12")
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html


        However, here
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor5.html
        http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor11.html
        gathered pleating can clearly be seem under the lacing. This is when I would wear a
        gathered, fuller chemise.

        Oh, and I've never seen any paintings or documentation or a chemise made using the
        bodice pattern. I have heard of people making an undergarment to give support from their
        bodice pattern (sort of like a proto-corset). Mistress Juilianna does this. She says that she
        has no documentation, but she needs the support and chose this as the answer.
        I hope this is helpful,
        Lucrezia

        --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "V" <reldnips@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is there any guideline/timeline of when a more fitted shift is
        > appropriate rather than a fuller, puffier, gathered/pleated neckline
        > chemise?
        >
        > I've seen some people mention that they made the underdress using the
        > same pattern as the bodice, for example. I'm just wonder what kind of
        > documentation there is for the more shiftlike underdresses, though
        > I've seen several paintings w/ women in chemises.
        >
        > I'm thinking of making something from the time period between 1485 and
        > 1495 (I'm really inspired by the women in Ghirlandaio's works.) So if
        > I have a specific question it would be which would be appropriate for
        > that style/timeperiod?
        >
        > TIA!
        >
        > ~Annora
        >
      • Susan Griner
        While this is off on a tangent from your original question, I wanted to share more information I found. I was re-reading Drea Leed s The well Dress d Peasant;
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 11, 2007
          While this is off on a tangent from your original question, I wanted to share more
          information I found. I was re-reading Drea Leed's "The well Dress'd Peasant; 16th Century
          Flemish Workingwomen's Dress" and came across a comment on how to cut a shift to
          support the breasts. She doesn't have documentation that this was done, just practical
          experience that it works.
          "Make the body of the smock relatively close fitting. If you want added bosom support,
          make the front and back sections of the smock very close fitting ( one inch larger around
          than your under-the-bust measurement) and make the underarm gussets just large
          enough to provide enough room for the bosom. Although a smock this fitted can take
          some wiggling to get into, once it's on it's very comfortable and provides as much support
          as a modern sports bra."
          She adds gores to the shift to create the needed width at the hem. I think I'm going to try a
          shift like this and see how it works under my 15th c. dresses.
          Also , on the question of shift versus chemise, I would conjecture that even when upper
          class women were wearing a full chemise, the lower class women might still be wearing a
          slimmer shift. Economic necessity may have dictated a camica that used less fabric.
          Lucrezia
          > >
          > > Is there any guideline/timeline of when a more fitted shift is
          > > appropriate rather than a fuller, puffier, gathered/pleated neckline
          > > chemise?
          > >
          > > I've seen some people mention that they made the underdress using the
          > > same pattern as the bodice, for example. I'm just wonder what kind of
          > > documentation there is for the more shiftlike underdresses, though
          > > I've seen several paintings w/ women in chemises.
          > >
          > > I'm thinking of making something from the time period between 1485 and
          > > 1495 (I'm really inspired by the women in Ghirlandaio's works.) So if
          > > I have a specific question it would be which would be appropriate for
          > > that style/timeperiod?
          > >
          > > TIA!
          > >
          > > ~Annora
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