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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Persona Guidelines and One's own heritage

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  • Adele de Maisieres
    ... Whoops-- that should have read but NOT true of Tudor . -- Adele de Maisieres ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus
    Message 1 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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      Adele de Maisieres wrote:

      >Susan B. Farmer wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>IIRC, there are even some *surnames* that you may not use -- like Tudor.
      >>You can't be Throckmorton Tudor -- as Tudor is the name of the Royal
      >>HOuse of England, the implication is that you are of noble blood.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >True of some surnames (Guelph, for example), but true of Tudor. There
      >were/are lots of non-Royal Tudors. The seneschal of Lochac is Emrys Tudur.
      >
      >
      >
      Whoops-- that should have read "but NOT true of Tudor".

      --
      Adele de Maisieres

      -----------------------------
      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
      -Georgeus Gershwinus
      -----------------------------
    • Liz Brodie
      I do believe it is. it is however spelt with 2 U s and no o . Tudur not Tudor Alyenora Brodier
      Message 2 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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        I do believe it is. it is however spelt with 2 U's and no "o". "Tudur" not
        "Tudor"

        Alyenora Brodier

        Quoting "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...>:

        > Quoting Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@...>:
        >
        >> Susan B. Farmer wrote:
        >>
        >>> IIRC, there are even some *surnames* that you may not use -- like Tudor.
        >>> You can't be Throckmorton Tudor -- as Tudor is the name of the Royal
        >>> HOuse of England, the implication is that you are of noble blood.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >> True of some surnames (Guelph, for example), but true of Tudor. There
        >> were/are lots of non-Royal Tudors. The seneschal of Lochac is Emrys Tudur.
        >
        > Is it possible that he's not registered the name? My brain is certanly
        > faulty these days, but I would have sworn that you couldn't use Tudor.
        > As you know the good gentle, you are probably far more correct than I!
        >
        > :-)
        >
        > Jerusha
        > -----
        > Susan Farmer
        > sfarmer@...
        > University of Tennessee
        > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
        > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Adele de Maisieres
        ... No, it is not possible. It s in the LOAR http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2003/01/03-01lar.html, which includes some commentary about the non-Royal use of
        Message 3 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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          Susan B. Farmer wrote:

          >>True of some surnames (Guelph, for example), but [not] true of Tudor. There
          >>were/are lots of non-Royal Tudors. The seneschal of Lochac is Emrys Tudur.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >Is it possible that he's not registered the name? My brain is certanly
          >faulty these days, but I would have sworn that you couldn't use Tudor.
          >As you know the good gentle, you are probably far more correct than I!
          >
          >
          >

          No, it is not possible. It's in the LOAR
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2003/01/03-01lar.html, which includes
          some commentary about the non-Royal use of Tudor/Tudur.

          --
          Adele de Maisieres

          -----------------------------
          Habeo metrum - musicamque,
          hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
          -Georgeus Gershwinus
          -----------------------------
        • borderlands15213
          ... whose ... make ... Catherine ... ever ... former ... And that was why I was very hesitant to tell the newcomer person that she could even *use* Catharine
          Message 4 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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            --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Adele de
            Maisieres <ladyadele@...> wrote:
            >
            > borderlands15213 wrote:
            >
            > >'You [meaning me] are of Scots descent. You can be a person
            whose
            > >family is Stewart, and your first name can be Mary which would
            make
            > >your name Mary Stewart---and that's okay---but you can't be Mary
            > >Stewart, Queen of Scots.
            > >.
            > >
            > >
            > .
            >
            > .
            >
            > >More recently, a lady came into our local Barony having already
            > >decided she wanted to take the name Catherine Howard, a sixteenth
            > >century lady-in-waiting to "the Queen."
            > >
            >
            > > The College of Heralds isn't: their
            > >concerns are, does your name follow correct form; can you document
            > >it; does it conflict with a name already registered.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Actually, the College of Heralds will reject Mary Steward and
            Catherine
            > Howard outright. They don't try to make sure that _no_ real person
            ever
            > used the name, but they won't let you register the names of a
            former
            > Queen of Scots, or a former Queen of England.
            >
            > --
            > Adele de Maisieres
            >

            And that was why I was very hesitant to tell the newcomer person that
            she could even *use* Catharine Howard, but Talan said it wouldn't be
            a problem. I did say in an earlier post that use might be accepted
            where registration isn't.
            I'll also point out that over the past two decades some of the rules
            have changed.
            But had I chosen to be known as Mary Stuart/Stewart, or the other
            lady had--may have as far as I know, I don't recall seeing her after
            one or two meetings---elected to be called "Catharine Howard," either
            of us could do so.
            Registration would be a different kettle of fish.

            Thank you, Adele, for the reassurance.

            Yseult the Gentle
          • borderlands15213
            ... solars ... People ... and ... Cilean, maybe it s the way you re writing, but officially the SCA isn t going to encourage [newcomers] to pick someone who
            Message 5 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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              --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Cilean_69
              <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been in now 3 different kingdoms and taking part of newbie
              > circles within each. In each of the roundtables,discussions and
              solars
              > in from the time I was a newbie and this is now 21 years ago,
              People
              > have been encouraged to pick someone who is not an actual figure,
              and
              > pick someone who would be a fantasy for you. So that you can move
              > outside of self and live in the dream.

              Cilean, maybe it's the way you're writing, but officially the SCA
              isn't going to "encourage [newcomers] to pick someone who is not an
              actual figure;" we expressly forbid selecting as one's persona an
              actual [implied: significant] historical personage. Moreover, we
              state, "...create a persona who **could have lived [emphasis mine--
              Yseult]**"
              Number of kingdoms resided in has nothing to do with this, since
              what we're talking about is the Society's stated purpose and the
              Society's parameters for persona development, and these are outside
              of the matter of *registering* a name. The number of kingdoms
              comprising the SCA has nothing to do with it, either.

              It's been my observation that most people will find their way to
              what appeals to them, sooner or later, and whether or not they come
              in with definite ideas or ambitions may have a great deal to do with
              their own temperament.
              Now, this next statement is my--just my, I'm not speaking for
              others, here---my own viewpoint, but "... encouraged to pick someone
              who is not an actual figure, and
              > pick someone who would be a fantasy for you. So that you can move
              > outside of self and live in the dream" as you've expressed it, is
              very much like telling someone he or she can't really "live the
              dream" unless they do step outside themselves. I'll bet you don't
              really mean that.


              >
              > Just as people are told to try different times and countries as
              they
              > get thier feet wet (so to speak) within the SCA. Sometimes people
              > choose and are very rigid in thier choice when they first come to
              the
              > SCA and then a year or so later they find a new love. I know many
              > people who began as one name, and now have either just kept it or
              > changed thier name and added "used to be" in thier accountings of
              their
              > personas.
              >
              >
              > Cilean
              >
              Yes, sometimes people do make one choice and later opt for something
              much different, or only slightly different, or modify their persona
              story (in their own heads) to accommodate being a fourteenth century
              Saxon living in England and wearing sixteenth century Venetian
              courtesan gowns.
              Perhaps it has happened that wherever you've been, it's been local
              custom to encourage people to "try out," in which case I hope that
              you are thinking and encouraging along the same lines as my friend
              and mentor recommended to me: be generic medieval for your newcomer
              period or until something definitely grabs you; this saves wear and
              tear on you and especially on your budget. But the impression your
              statement, "Just as people are told..." makes is that it represents
              SCA policy, and quite simply, that's not policy and not a
              requirement. We give our participants a lot of latitude and we're
              just not that strict as instructing them to "try out:" they don't
              have to try out anything more than an attempt at pre-1600 attire.
              Some folks, not uncommonly from real re-enacting backgrounds such as
              American Revolutionary War, accustomed to stricter and much more
              exact parameters, are more comfortable with having something
              specific to aim at, and they come in with a persona story all worked
              out: they are already familiar with "taking a chance" that the kit
              they'll have to assemble and use, and the persona wearing and using
              it, might not be for them in the long run; to these people, a
              complete overhauling of persona, garb, accoutrements and other items
              isn't as big a deal as it might be for those folks---like college
              students---with little or no money, who may need to take it slower.
              The previous re-enactor, coming to us from a different background
              and with different experiences, might be put off by the idea
              of "trying out." He or she is often very confident of his own
              ability to interpret eras and to gauge his interest in them, and is
              more comfortable than a lot of us with the idea of selling off his
              entire kit and starting over, which often happens with interpretors
              of actual history when they change characters, character status, or
              fields (like changing from WWI to colonial America.)

              Yseult the Gentle
            • Adele de Maisieres
              ... A one-letter spelling difference wouldn t matter of the name weren t acceptable, no more that trying to become Mary le Stewart or Catherine Howards would
              Message 6 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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                Liz Brodie wrote:

                >I do believe it is. it is however spelt with 2 U's and no "o". "Tudur" not
                >"Tudor"
                >
                >

                A one-letter spelling difference wouldn't matter of the name weren't
                acceptable, no more that trying to become Mary le Stewart or Catherine
                Howards would make you clear of Queens Mary and Catherine.

                --
                Adele de Maisieres

                -----------------------------
                Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                -Georgeus Gershwinus
                -----------------------------
              • Susan B. Farmer
                ... Cool! Thanks for the information! Jerusha ... Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                Message 7 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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                  Quoting Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@...>:

                  > Susan B. Farmer wrote:
                  >
                  >>> True of some surnames (Guelph, for example), but [not] true of
                  >>> Tudor. There
                  >>> were/are lots of non-Royal Tudors. The seneschal of Lochac is Emrys Tudur.
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >> Is it possible that he's not registered the name? My brain is certanly
                  >> faulty these days, but I would have sworn that you couldn't use Tudor.
                  >> As you know the good gentle, you are probably far more correct than I!
                  >>
                  >
                  > No, it is not possible. It's in the LOAR
                  > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2003/01/03-01lar.html, which includes
                  > some commentary about the non-Royal use of Tudor/Tudur.

                  Cool! Thanks for the information!

                  Jerusha
                  -----
                  Susan Farmer
                  sfarmer@...
                  University of Tennessee
                  Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                  http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                • otsisto
                  d Este, though not forbidden, does not make the modern d Estes happy with it s use unless you are a d Este or lineage. So I have been told. Lyse [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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                    d'Este, though not forbidden, does not make the modern d'Estes happy with
                    it's use unless you are a d'Este or lineage. So I have been told.
                    Lyse


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Adele de Maisieres
                    ... Maybe they should lighten up a bit. I don t go around telling people they shouldn t use _my_ surname. -- Adele de Maisieres ... Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 3, 2006
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                      otsisto wrote:

                      >d'Este, though not forbidden, does not make the modern d'Estes happy with
                      >it's use unless you are a d'Este or lineage. So I have been told.
                      >
                      >


                      Maybe they should lighten up a bit. I don't go around telling people
                      they shouldn't use _my_ surname.

                      --
                      Adele de Maisieres

                      -----------------------------
                      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                      -Georgeus Gershwinus
                      -----------------------------
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