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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re:smock under corset

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  • otsisto
    I am not sure of your question. The pictures were answering this I am wondering where you got your research for the Venetians to wear their smocks with
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 10 10:58 PM
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      I am not sure of your question.
      The pictures were answering this

      "I am wondering where you got your research for the Venetians to wear their
      smocks with sleeves that could be rolled up if they wanted?"

      Asked by Aurelia.

      A smock, chemise, and camicia to some extent are an undergarment usually
      next to the skin but to my knowledge, a smock is not gathered at the
      neckline. It is a straight or flat neckline.
      I have reread Ann in CT's email and realized that what she was saying was
      smock and describing what I would call a camicia or chemise.
      Since Ann has been on this list longer then I, I will assume that she is
      correct and therefore please ignore my previous posts.

      Lyse
      -----Original Message-----
      Got a question on this topic. What garment is it that you are calling a
      smock? All my sources translate the English word smock as camicia in
      Italian or chemise in French. My understanding of a smock, or camicia or
      chemise is that it is the (under)garment worn next to the skin with all the
      other clothing worn over it. Are you talking about two smocks being worn -
      or rather two camiscie?

      Katharine of Cate Hall
      Atenveldt



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gina Stairs
      Please excuse the late reply as I get this list delivered in digest mode. What I was asking about was the smock worn underneath the corset, and next to the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 11 1:22 PM
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        Please excuse the late reply as I get this list delivered in digest mode.

        What I was asking about was the "smock" worn underneath the corset, and next to the skin.. since then I have spoken to Oonagh and now have some sort of documentation of a spanish woman wearing the type of garment I was asking about and it is being worn near the middle of the 16th century..

        I am trying to construct a venetian dress c.1550-1580. I finished my corset, and want to try to make this as close to period as possible in the time constraints that I have.

        Aurelia


        Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com wrote: There are 8 messages in this issue.

        Topics in this digest:

        1. Re: Re:smock under corset
        From: Lady Ardalyn Rose
        2. RE: Re:smock under corset
        From: "otsisto"
        3. RE: Re:smock under corset
        From: Catherine Rogers-Cook
        4. Venetain Ladder Laced Gown, I'm almost finished
        From: Rebecca Egan
        5. Re: Venetain Ladder Laced Gown, I'm almost finished
        From: Catherine Rogers-Cook
        6. RE: Re:smock under corset
        From: "otsisto"
        7. Re: New fabric
        From: "Susan B. Farmer"
        8. Re: New fabric
        From: Cilean_69


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 1
        Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Lady Ardalyn Rose
        Subject: Re: Re:smock under corset

        Gina!

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/chemise.html

        Jen's site is one of the best *looks around at the group* Along with Oonagh and Bella's, of course!

        Gina Stairs wrote:
        Thank you ... very much for this answer.

        I am wondering where you got your research for the Venetians to wear their smocks with sleeves that could be rolled up if they wanted? The only thing I have found is the smock at the Met. Could you share it with us so I can add it to my research? Maybe others might be interested as well..

        Aurelia


        Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com wrote:

        If I've got a smock next to my skin to protect any other layer of clothing, it will cover my armpits and not be sleeveless.

        In fact, it's fairly likely to have long sleeves, but narrow, like a t-tunic chemise, unless there is a reason for it not to.
        That way my dress sleeves don't get skanky.

        A good reason would be, for example, that I'm aiming for Venetian, around mid-sixteenth (dates guessed), whose smocks were generous and has broad sleeves that could be rolled up even to the shoulder.

        Or any other period where it is shown that 'they' didn't wear a narrow t-shaped chemise.

        Ann in CT




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        Message: 2
        Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:23:50 -0500
        From: "otsisto"
        Subject: RE: Re:smock under corset

        Not the person you asked but this is some of my source for the style. Though
        it is Milan not Venice.
        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk1.html

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk8.html

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk9.html
        -----Original Message-----


        I am wondering where you got your research for the Venetians to wear
        their smocks with sleeves that could be rolled up if they wanted? The only
        thing I have found is the smock at the Met. Could you share it with us so I
        can add it to my research? Maybe others might be interested as well..

        Aurelia



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 3
        Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Catherine Rogers-Cook
        Subject: RE: Re:smock under corset

        Got a question on this topic. What garment is it that you are calling a smock? All my sources translate the English word smock as camicia in Italian or chemise in French. My understanding of a smock, or camicia or chemise is that it is the (under)garment worn next to the skin with all the other clothing worn over it. Are you talking about two smocks being worn - or rather two camiscie?

        Katharine of Cate Hall
        Atenveldt

        otsisto wrote:
        Not the person you asked but this is some of my source for the style. Though
        it is Milan not Venice.
        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk1.html

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk8.html

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk9.html
        -----Original Message-----


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        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 4
        Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Rebecca Egan
        Subject: Venetain Ladder Laced Gown, I'm almost finished

        Greetings,
        For those of you that are interested, I have just posted a dress diary of sorts. Its heavy on the pictures but they are all pretty small file sizes so they shouldn't be a big problem. I would love to hear your thoughts on how it is so far.

        http://www.geocities.com/beccaberry/dressdiary.html?1144713209027




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        Kingdom of the Outlands
        Barony of Unser Hafen
        Canton of Bofarrach
        Household of the Smiling Bull




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        Message: 5
        Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Catherine Rogers-Cook
        Subject: Re: Venetain Ladder Laced Gown, I'm almost finished

        The gown looks lovely! But it was the duct-tape pattern that made me smile the most. Truly it IS the Force!

        Be sure to post pictures of you in the gown when you have them!

        Dame Katharine of Cate Hall
        Atenveldt

        Rebecca Egan wrote:
        Greetings,
        For those of you that are interested, I have just posted a dress diary of sorts. Its heavy on the pictures but they are all pretty small file sizes so they shouldn't be a big problem. I would love to hear your thoughts on how it is so far.

        http://www.geocities.com/beccaberry/dressdiary.html?1144713209027




        Lady Gabriella Rizo
        Kingdom of the Outlands
        Barony of Unser Hafen
        Canton of Bofarrach
        Household of the Smiling Bull




        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 6
        Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:58:22 -0500
        From: "otsisto"
        Subject: RE: Re:smock under corset

        I am not sure of your question.
        The pictures were answering this

        "I am wondering where you got your research for the Venetians to wear their
        smocks with sleeves that could be rolled up if they wanted?"

        Asked by Aurelia.

        A smock, chemise, and camicia to some extent are an undergarment usually
        next to the skin but to my knowledge, a smock is not gathered at the
        neckline. It is a straight or flat neckline.
        I have reread Ann in CT's email and realized that what she was saying was
        smock and describing what I would call a camicia or chemise.
        Since Ann has been on this list longer then I, I will assume that she is
        correct and therefore please ignore my previous posts.

        Lyse
        -----Original Message-----
        Got a question on this topic. What garment is it that you are calling a
        smock? All my sources translate the English word smock as camicia in
        Italian or chemise in French. My understanding of a smock, or camicia or
        chemise is that it is the (under)garment worn next to the skin with all the
        other clothing worn over it. Are you talking about two smocks being worn -
        or rather two camiscie?

        Katharine of Cate Hall
        Atenveldt



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 7
        Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:40:16 -0400
        From: "Susan B. Farmer"
        Subject: Re: New fabric

        Quoting Diane :

        > Someone has given me an almost 4 yard piece/remnant of a heavy
        > (upholstery weight) 60" cotton sateen brocade in a brick red/burnt
        > orange color (yeah, I can't seem to get away from that color!), with a
        > wreath, urn, & chrysanthemum pattern. I'm considering making
        > something with this, but would really appreciate some input from
        > members of the group on the fabric. Can I use this for Italian Ren,
        > or would it better suit some other period. I've put up pics in
        > Diane's WIP's file in the photo section. Hope the pics show enough of
        > the detail. Thanks for any help, opinions you can give—you people are
        > great on this group!
        >

        Oh, that's just dreadful. I think that you should get rid of that
        immediately. I'll be more than happy to save you from that awful
        fabric by taking it off your hands! :-D Really. It'll be my
        pleasure. :-D


        that really is nice fabric. :-)

        Jerusha (who is envious this morning!)
        -----
        Susan Farmer
        sfarmer@...
        University of Tennessee
        Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
        http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 8
        Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:54:12 -0000
        From: Cilean_69
        Subject: Re: New fabric

        Diane,

        4 yards is plenty to make a nice Italian. I am 5 10 I used 3 yards to
        make a lovely gown in the 1480's style. But I could see a lovely
        Venitian perhaps open skirted? With another lovely skirt underneath?

        Cilean










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      • Gina Stairs
        Please excuse the late reply as I get this list delivered in digest mode. What I was asking about was the smock worn underneath the corset, and next to the
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 11 1:22 PM
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          Please excuse the late reply as I get this list delivered in digest mode.

          What I was asking about was the "smock" worn underneath the corset, and next to the skin.. since then I have spoken to Oonagh and now have some sort of documentation of a spanish woman wearing the type of garment I was asking about and it is being worn near the middle of the 16th century..

          I am trying to construct a venetian dress c.1550-1580. I finished my corset, and want to try to make this as close to period as possible in the time constraints that I have.

          Aurelia





          "Mine honor is my life; both grow in one;
          take honor from me and my life is done."
          --William Shakespeare

          ---------------------------------
          Have a question? Yahoo! Canada Answers. Go to Yahoo! Canada Answers

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Adele de Maisieres
          ... Actually, I think that may be an artificial distinction made by modern costumers. Just to muddy the waters a little further, I often use the word shirt
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 11 2:35 PM
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            otsisto wrote:

            >A smock, chemise, and camicia to some extent are an undergarment usually
            >next to the skin but to my knowledge, a smock is not gathered at the
            >neckline. It is a straight or flat neckline.
            >
            >

            Actually, I think that may be an artificial distinction made by modern
            costumers. Just to muddy the waters a little further, I often use the
            word "shirt" as a catch-all term and "shift" specifically for the inner
            layer.

            --
            Adele de Maisieres

            -----------------------------
            Habeo metrum - musicamque,
            hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
            -Georgeus Gershwinus
            -----------------------------
          • Adele de Maisieres
            ... Please! Trim your posts! -- Adele de Maisieres ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 11 2:40 PM
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              Gina Stairs wrote:

              >Please excuse the late reply as I get this list delivered in digest mode.
              >
              >
              >
              <snip snip snip snip snip>

              Please! Trim your posts!

              --
              Adele de Maisieres

              -----------------------------
              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
              -Georgeus Gershwinus
              -----------------------------
            • Suzi
              I have a smock (it s sleeveless with thin shoulders and a deep neckline) that I wear under my corset, then a camicia over that, and a gown over that (plus
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 12 8:19 AM
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                I have a smock (it's sleeveless with thin shoulders and a deep
                neckline) that I wear under my corset, then a camicia over that, and
                a gown over that (plus other things such as underskirts, partlet,
                roped fathingdale, etc.)for my Venetian

                --- In Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Catherine
                Rogers-Cook <Catherine@...> wrote:
                >
                > Got a question on this topic. What garment is it that you are
                calling a smock? All my sources translate the English word smock as
                camicia in Italian or chemise in French. My understanding of a
                smock, or camicia or chemise is that it is the (under)garment worn
                next to the skin with all the other clothing worn over it. Are you
                talking about two smocks being worn - or rather two camiscie?
                >
                > Katharine of Cate Hall
                > Atenveldt
                >
                > otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:
                > Not the person you asked but this is some of my source for the
                style. Though
                > it is Milan not Venice.
                > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk1.html
                >
                > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk8.html
                >
                > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk9.html
                > -----Original Message-----
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "Italian_Renaissance_Costuming" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Italian_Renaissance_Costuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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