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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Intro and query - Italian surcoats worn over armour?

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  • comrion
    ... seem to ... Still ... It looks to me as though the man upon horse is just wearing a helm and a German Waffenrock with matching leggings. I know that in the
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 14, 2005
      --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Mike
      Prendergast <kyuudousha9@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Mike Prendergast wrote:
      >
      > > > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm
      >
      > Well at further look, while his leggings are greave-shaped, they
      seem to
      > have the same fabric pattern as the gown, so it's more in doubt.
      Still
      > they could be cloth-covered armour(?)
      >
      > Cernac

      It looks to me as though the man upon horse is just wearing a helm
      and a German Waffenrock with matching leggings.

      I know that in the 16thC. the Military Order of the Knights of St.
      Stephen wore a white silk "tunic" over their armor as opposed to a
      full surcoat ala the crusaders.

      Well, thats my Quattrinos worth :)

      Guilio de Medici
      Cavaliere Gran Croce Dell'Ordine de Santo Stefano
      Guild San Lorenzo(rpfs)
    • Mike Prendergast
      ... http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm ... wearing a helm ... Yeah, actually it did look similar to German images I ve seen of jousters... ...
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
        --- comrion <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        > > >
        http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm

        >It looks to me as though the man upon horse is just
        wearing a >helm
        >and a German Waffenrock with matching leggings.

        Yeah, actually it did look similar to German images
        I've seen of jousters...

        >I know that in the 16thC. the Military Order of the
        Knights of >St. Stephen wore a white silk "tunic" over
        their armor as >opposed to a full surcoat ala the
        crusaders.

        Cool, that bears further investigation.


        Thanks Guilio.

        Cernac






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      • Catherine Rogers-Cook
        Guilio, what is your source for the white silk tunic and what language did it come from? Also how did it differ , from a 12th - 13th century cyclas? Are
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
          Guilio, what is your source for the "white silk tunic" and what language did it come from? Also how did it differ , from a 12th - 13th century cyclas? Are we talking about a waffenrok, what the English called bases? Inquiring minds want to know!

          Dame Katharine of Cate Hall
          Atenveldt

          >I know that in the 16thC. the Military Order of the
          Knights of >St. Stephen wore a white silk "tunic" over
          their armor as >opposed to a full surcoat ala the
          crusaders.







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        • comrion
          The source is the handbook of the Rules and Regulations of the Military Order of St. Stephen C. 1571, and G. Guardini s six volume History of the Military
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
            The source is the handbook of the Rules and Regulations of the
            Military Order of St. Stephen C. 1571, and G. Guardini's six volume
            History of the Military Order of St. Stephen. both in Italian/Tuscan.
            Also pictorial evidence in Abbigliamento de Costume in Pitturi which I
            have posted in the Photos section

            It's more like a big t-shirt coming only down to the waist. From the
            little I know about the 12-13th C ones they tend to go all the way
            down to the knees this thing is remarkably short, I guess they felt it
            just was'nt necessary to have them that long. Later on in the 17thC.
            it appears they went with the Musketeer overcoat thingie :)

            No waffenrock or bases check out the picture and you'll see.

            Giulio

            --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Catherine
            Rogers-Cook <Catherine@C...> wrote:
            >
            > Guilio, what is your source for the "white silk tunic" and what
            language did it come from? Also how did it differ , from a 12th -
            13th century cyclas? Are we talking about a waffenrok, what the
            English called bases? Inquiring minds want to know!
            >
            > Dame Katharine of Cate Hall
            > Atenveldt
            >
          • comrion
            It s just posted in the Photos section under Tunic1 ... Italian/Tuscan. ... I
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
              It's just posted in the Photos section under Tunic1

              --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, comrion
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The source is the handbook of the Rules and Regulations of the
              > Military Order of St. Stephen C. 1571, and G. Guardini's six volume
              > History of the Military Order of St. Stephen. both in
              Italian/Tuscan.
              > Also pictorial evidence in Abbigliamento de Costume in Pitturi which
              I
              > have posted in the Photos section
              >
            • Trish
              Greeting to one and all. I have recently purchased some fabric, that after getting it, I have decided it won t do for me. There is 11 yds of 54 wide polished
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
                Greeting to one and all.
                I have recently purchased some fabric, that after getting it, I have
                decided it won't do for me. There is 11 yds of 54" wide "polished
                cotton" type fabric. It is a dark blue and gold print very much like
                what would have been worn in Italy in the 1500's.Or even in Germany,
                and England. The nice part about it is that it's got a cotton base,
                which means it would be good for anyone needing something made out of
                something lighter and washable.
                It's really very, very pretty, just TO bold for me. Because it's a
                dark blue with that richness of gold/mustard color it will suit most
                any hair color, and... there is enough to make a gown for anyone,
                even someone who is a bit larger in size.{Like me,LOL}
                I have a picture, but I don't think yahoo will let it come thought
                in the email. Please email me and I'll forward it to you if you are
                interested.
                It has a nice sheen to it. I hate to give it up, but I know someone
                else out there can use it better then I.
                Please email and I'll send the picture of it. I would be willing to
                sell it for what it cost me plus shipping cost {and that is a really
                low price for such a great piece of fabric, and so much of it}.

                Thanks
                Deirdre
              • Catherine Rogers-Cook
                WAY COOL! It almost looks like a tee-shirt with armor. So the word is tunica, right? It is of interest to me because the word tunic does not appear in
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 15, 2005
                  WAY COOL! It almost looks like a tee-shirt with armor. So the word is tunica, right? It is of interest to me because the word tunic does not appear in English until 1603 (or 1608) depending on which etymologist you believe - I'm betting on the OED.

                  I know the Italians were very conciously referring to classical Roman clothing in some clothing styles as early as the 2nd quarter of the 15th century, according to Herald in Dress in Renaissance Italy.

                  Thanks for the interesting insight and photo!

                  Katharine of Cate Hall

                  comrion <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  It's just posted in the Photos section under Tunic1

                  --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, comrion
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The source is the handbook of the Rules and Regulations of the
                  > Military Order of St. Stephen C. 1571, and G. Guardini's six volume
                  > History of the Military Order of St. Stephen. both in
                  Italian/Tuscan.
                  > Also pictorial evidence in Abbigliamento de Costume in Pitturi which
                  I
                  > have posted in the Photos section
                  >






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                • comrion
                  Ah! I m sorry I ve been sick and well, tunic was the only word I could think of when describing this my apologies but, I will take my self home and go through
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 16, 2005
                    Ah! I'm sorry I've been sick and well, tunic was the only word I
                    could think of when describing this my apologies but, I will take my
                    self home and go through the manuals this weekend and find the
                    description and proper name for you I promise!! :)

                    And it does look like a tee-shirt don't it!? If you could see it
                    blown up you will see that the neckline has some sort of gather or
                    frog and if you look upon the side especially just under his hand
                    you can also see what look like frogs keeping the sides of it
                    together.

                    I've been studying this Order for the last ten years or so now and
                    am constantly fascinated by them.

                    As mentioned I will get back to you next week with the proper word.

                    Ciao

                    - In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Catherine
                    Rogers-Cook <Catherine@C...> wrote:
                    >
                    > WAY COOL! It almost looks like a tee-shirt with armor. So the
                    word is tunica, right? It is of interest to me because the word
                    tunic does not appear in English until 1603 (or 1608) depending on
                    which etymologist you believe - I'm betting on the OED.
                    >
                    > I know the Italians were very conciously referring to classical
                    Roman clothing in some clothing styles as early as the 2nd quarter
                    of the 15th century, according to Herald in Dress in Renaissance
                    Italy.
                    >
                    > Thanks for the interesting insight and photo!
                    >
                    > Katharine of Cate Hall
                    >
                    >
                  • Trish
                    There has been a lot of interest in the fabric, so what I am going to do is open it up to everyone sending me your best offer {even if it s lower then what I
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 16, 2005
                      There has been a lot of interest in the fabric, so what I am going to
                      do is open it up to everyone sending me your best offer {even if it's
                      lower then what I paid,} and whoever sends me the highest, will get a
                      nice Christmas gift of the difference between what I paid and what
                      you offer. If no-one takes it at the price I paid that is.lol.

                      Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas,
                      Deirdre
                    • Trish
                      I want to thank everyone, for their interest in the fabric, It has been sold. Truly a great buy . For me {even if I didn t use it, it was great talking to you
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 16, 2005
                        I want to thank everyone, for their interest in the fabric, It has been sold.
                        Truly a great buy . For me {even if I didn't use it, it was great
                        talking to you all}, for the lady who bought it {she has a great
                        dress idea for it, so I hope she posts pictures} and for everyone
                        else who expressed interest. I thank you all.

                        I am currently working on a jeweled belt for a gown, in amber and
                        topaz colors. Anyone want to see?

                        As I go though my fabric, I'll post to let you know what I have
                        unearthed and are willing to part with.
                        Thanks again,

                        Deirdre
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