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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] giornea bustle?

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  • Allison Stanley
    I am all very new to this an by no means claim to know anything...but to me it does look like they have lifted the back of their skirts in some
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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      I am all very new to this an by no means claim to know anything...but to me it does look like they have lifted the back of their skirts in some fashion...possibly tucked into their belts somehow. The girl in the blue dress looks like she has some sort of bow or strip of cloth to hold up the back of hers.

      Allegranza

      Laita da Padova <laita_dapadova@...> wrote:


      As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

      http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

      The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

      The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a florentine bustle?



      Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed behind the wearer.

      http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



      What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune times?



      Bustles. what a crazy thought

      -Laita



      bus�tle (bsl) n.

      A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a woman's skirt.
      A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt below the waist.

      I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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    • Amanda
      Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with a skirt separate from the bodice. the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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        Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with
        a skirt separate from the bodice.
        the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt tail is wrapped around her
        elbow making it look like a bustle
        The blue gown is a gamurra. and the train is tucked behind on the belt. Some
        paintings show the gamurra with a belt on.

        Amanda.
        OL
        Calontir



        As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
        (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

        The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge
        in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl
        with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the
        bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off
        the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the
        left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since
        her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me
        it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and
        (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

        The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but
        the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a
        florentine bustle?



        Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
        behind the wearer.

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



        What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about
        bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune
        times?



        Bustles. what a crazy thought

        -Laita



        bus·tle (bsl) n.

        A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a
        woman's skirt.
        A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt
        below the waist.

        I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's
        skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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      • ginevra_visconti
        I think these are simply extra long skirts tucked up in the back of the gown. Other paintings (usually of working ladies) show them tucked up in the front.
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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          I think these are simply extra long skirts tucked up in the back of
          the gown. Other paintings (usually of working ladies) show them tucked
          up in the front. These wealthy women are perhaps being more modest.

          ~Ginevra

          > As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the
          Notary's Son (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.
          >
          > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.
          html
          >
          > The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a
          bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer
          at the girl with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue
          skirt hemline on the bottom left has folds which make it look like the
          back drape is lifted off the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue..
          . another fold appears to the left underneath her elbow, and another
          puff about her mid-upper arm. Since her sleeve are close-fitting, it
          has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me it really looks like the
          back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and (presumably) held in
          place by her gold belt.
          >
          > The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a
          belt, but the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is
          possible this is a florentine bustle?
          >
          >
          >
          > Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they
          trailed behind the wearer.
          >
          > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.
          html
          >
          >
          >
          > What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and
          about bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at
          inopportune times?
        • Diana Habra
          ... I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side (the side
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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            > Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
            > parts... with
            > a skirt separate from the bodice.

            I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
            giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
            (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
            underdress and cream giornea over it.

            Secondly, I would like us to use the proper term for what we are
            describing. I would say that the skirts are "bustled up" meaning that
            they are pulled up and secured somehow. We keep using the term "bustle"
            in these posts which means a separate structure that is worn to hold a
            garment away from the body in a specific way (like what the Victorians
            did).

            So can we please use the term "bustled up" instead of "bustle"?

            Diana

            www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
            "Everything for the Costumer"
          • Amanda
            ... The question is as a definition a Giornea is a tabard like overdress worn over a gamurra. Traditionally we think of a gamurra as having open sides and
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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              >> Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
              >> parts... with
              >> a skirt separate from the bodice.
              >
              > I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
              > giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
              > (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
              > underdress and cream giornea over it.

              The question is as a definition a Giornea is a tabard like overdress worn
              over a gamurra. Traditionally we think of a gamurra as having open sides and
              closed front such as the Tornabuoni ladies wear in the Santa Maria Novella's
              frescoes... I have seen open fronted overcoats but they are normally not
              referred to as Giornee, more so as Veste or Vestiti.
              I do not see the sillouette of a Giornea on this picture. It looks like a
              Vestito and if I make a Giornea it will not look like that. Now if I make a
              Vestito it will look exactly like that. including having enough fabric in
              the back to give that "Bustled up" effect.
              In the Visitation from the Life of John the Baptist the Tornabuoni lady
              wears what according to Rosita Levi Pisetsky is a Giornea, over a gamurra
              but the lady in The Birth of Mary wears a Vestito which is the front opended
              dress laced or hooked on the front.
              I have seen overdresses that are open on the front but I have not read any
              author refer to them as Giornee...
              As a matter of the way the dress drapes on the lady's body I am sorry but I
              do not see it as a Giornea... it looks like it is cinched under the bust...
              and that effect can only be acchieved if you are wearing a Vestito.
              Amanda.
              OL
              Calontir
            • Janie
              Pick me! (raising hand up high) I believe the ladies just have the train tucked into their belts. I have done similar to this, in of all things, a wedding
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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                Pick me! (raising hand up high) I believe the ladies just have the train
                tucked into their belts.

                I have done similar to this, in of all things, a wedding dress. At my
                wedding EVERYONE was stepping on my train. I literally could not move
                without someone stepping on my dress. One of the mothers grabbed the
                tail-tip of the train, folded the train "shut" so no undergarments showed,
                then handed me the tip. When I griped that I couldn't hold it like that,
                she adjusted the train and draped it over my arm.

                Had I been wearing some kind of belt, I could have tucked that tip into the
                belt. I have done *that* at SCA events before! It really helped to keep
                the train out of the wet grass.

                What was the lady (on SCA Garb?) saying about "experimental archelogy"?

                Gwendolyn
                (Janie)
                ________________________________________________________________________

                Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:56:30 -0800 (PST)
                From: Laita da Padova <laita_dapadova@...>
                Subject: giornea bustle?
                As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
                (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.
                http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html
                <snip>
                Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
                behind the wearer.

                http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html
                <snip>
              • Lady Satine
                This is off topic... I had no Idea what any of htese things are called.. Thanks Amanda! Satine Amanda wrote: Note that these are not
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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                  This is off topic... I had no Idea what any of htese things are called.. Thanks Amanda!

                  Satine

                  Amanda <dakea@...> wrote:
                  Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with
                  a skirt separate from the bodice.
                  the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt tail is wrapped around her
                  elbow making it look like a bustle
                  The blue gown is a gamurra. and the train is tucked behind on the belt. Some
                  paintings show the gamurra with a belt on.

                  Amanda.
                  OL
                  Calontir



                  As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
                  (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

                  http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

                  The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge
                  in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl
                  with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the
                  bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off
                  the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the
                  left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since
                  her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me
                  it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and
                  (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

                  The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but
                  the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a
                  florentine bustle?



                  Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
                  behind the wearer.

                  http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



                  What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about
                  bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune
                  times?



                  Bustles. what a crazy thought

                  -Laita



                  bus�tle (bsl) n.

                  A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a
                  woman's skirt.
                  A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt
                  below the waist.

                  I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's
                  skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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                • Lady Satine
                  So basically we are all right?? its Bustled up according to your definition...I always think of teh old west and those bouncing bustles... so Obviously I had
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 26, 2005
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                    So basically we are all right?? its "Bustled up" according to your definition...I always think of teh old west and those bouncing bustles... so Obviously I had not idea! LOL.. Thanks for the info! I appreciate it!

                    Satine

                    Diana Habra <dch@...> wrote:

                    > Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
                    > parts... with
                    > a skirt separate from the bodice.

                    I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
                    giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
                    (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
                    underdress and cream giornea over it.

                    Secondly, I would like us to use the proper term for what we are
                    describing. I would say that the skirts are "bustled up" meaning that
                    they are pulled up and secured somehow. We keep using the term "bustle"
                    in these posts which means a separate structure that is worn to hold a
                    garment away from the body in a specific way (like what the Victorians
                    did).

                    So can we please use the term "bustled up" instead of "bustle"?

                    Diana

                    www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
                    "Everything for the Costumer"


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