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Re: giornea bustle?

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  • Susan Farmer
    ... Notary s Son (detail), I noticed something I ve never noticed before. ... bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 26 5:40 AM
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      --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Laita da Padova
      <laita_dapadova@y...> wrote:
      >
      > As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the
      Notary's Son (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.
      >
      > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html
      >
      > The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a
      bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer
      at the girl with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue
      skirt hemline on the bottom left has folds which make it look like the
      back drape is lifted off the ground. Again, look at the girl in
      blue... another fold appears to the left underneath her elbow, and
      another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since her sleeve are
      close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me it really
      looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and
      (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

      I had noticed the same thing and wondered if it was a bum roll .....

      Jerusha
    • Allison Stanley
      I am all very new to this an by no means claim to know anything...but to me it does look like they have lifted the back of their skirts in some
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 26 5:57 AM
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        I am all very new to this an by no means claim to know anything...but to me it does look like they have lifted the back of their skirts in some fashion...possibly tucked into their belts somehow. The girl in the blue dress looks like she has some sort of bow or strip of cloth to hold up the back of hers.

        Allegranza

        Laita da Padova <laita_dapadova@...> wrote:


        As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

        The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

        The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a florentine bustle?



        Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed behind the wearer.

        http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



        What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune times?



        Bustles. what a crazy thought

        -Laita



        bus�tle (bsl) n.

        A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a woman's skirt.
        A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt below the waist.

        I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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      • Amanda
        Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with a skirt separate from the bodice. the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 26 6:00 AM
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          Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with
          a skirt separate from the bodice.
          the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt tail is wrapped around her
          elbow making it look like a bustle
          The blue gown is a gamurra. and the train is tucked behind on the belt. Some
          paintings show the gamurra with a belt on.

          Amanda.
          OL
          Calontir



          As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
          (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

          http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

          The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge
          in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl
          with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the
          bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off
          the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the
          left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since
          her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me
          it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and
          (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

          The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but
          the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a
          florentine bustle?



          Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
          behind the wearer.

          http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



          What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about
          bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune
          times?



          Bustles. what a crazy thought

          -Laita



          bus·tle (bsl) n.

          A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a
          woman's skirt.
          A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt
          below the waist.

          I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's
          skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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        • ginevra_visconti
          I think these are simply extra long skirts tucked up in the back of the gown. Other paintings (usually of working ladies) show them tucked up in the front.
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 26 6:32 AM
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            I think these are simply extra long skirts tucked up in the back of
            the gown. Other paintings (usually of working ladies) show them tucked
            up in the front. These wealthy women are perhaps being more modest.

            ~Ginevra

            > As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the
            Notary's Son (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.
            >
            > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.
            html
            >
            > The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a
            bulge in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer
            at the girl with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue
            skirt hemline on the bottom left has folds which make it look like the
            back drape is lifted off the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue..
            . another fold appears to the left underneath her elbow, and another
            puff about her mid-upper arm. Since her sleeve are close-fitting, it
            has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me it really looks like the
            back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and (presumably) held in
            place by her gold belt.
            >
            > The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a
            belt, but the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is
            possible this is a florentine bustle?
            >
            >
            >
            > Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they
            trailed behind the wearer.
            >
            > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.
            html
            >
            >
            >
            > What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and
            about bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at
            inopportune times?
          • Diana Habra
            ... I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side (the side
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 26 9:10 AM
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              > Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
              > parts... with
              > a skirt separate from the bodice.

              I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
              giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
              (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
              underdress and cream giornea over it.

              Secondly, I would like us to use the proper term for what we are
              describing. I would say that the skirts are "bustled up" meaning that
              they are pulled up and secured somehow. We keep using the term "bustle"
              in these posts which means a separate structure that is worn to hold a
              garment away from the body in a specific way (like what the Victorians
              did).

              So can we please use the term "bustled up" instead of "bustle"?

              Diana

              www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
              "Everything for the Costumer"
            • Amanda
              ... The question is as a definition a Giornea is a tabard like overdress worn over a gamurra. Traditionally we think of a gamurra as having open sides and
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 26 10:25 AM
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                >> Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
                >> parts... with
                >> a skirt separate from the bodice.
                >
                > I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
                > giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
                > (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
                > underdress and cream giornea over it.

                The question is as a definition a Giornea is a tabard like overdress worn
                over a gamurra. Traditionally we think of a gamurra as having open sides and
                closed front such as the Tornabuoni ladies wear in the Santa Maria Novella's
                frescoes... I have seen open fronted overcoats but they are normally not
                referred to as Giornee, more so as Veste or Vestiti.
                I do not see the sillouette of a Giornea on this picture. It looks like a
                Vestito and if I make a Giornea it will not look like that. Now if I make a
                Vestito it will look exactly like that. including having enough fabric in
                the back to give that "Bustled up" effect.
                In the Visitation from the Life of John the Baptist the Tornabuoni lady
                wears what according to Rosita Levi Pisetsky is a Giornea, over a gamurra
                but the lady in The Birth of Mary wears a Vestito which is the front opended
                dress laced or hooked on the front.
                I have seen overdresses that are open on the front but I have not read any
                author refer to them as Giornee...
                As a matter of the way the dress drapes on the lady's body I am sorry but I
                do not see it as a Giornea... it looks like it is cinched under the bust...
                and that effect can only be acchieved if you are wearing a Vestito.
                Amanda.
                OL
                Calontir
              • Janie
                Pick me! (raising hand up high) I believe the ladies just have the train tucked into their belts. I have done similar to this, in of all things, a wedding
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 26 2:12 PM
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                  Pick me! (raising hand up high) I believe the ladies just have the train
                  tucked into their belts.

                  I have done similar to this, in of all things, a wedding dress. At my
                  wedding EVERYONE was stepping on my train. I literally could not move
                  without someone stepping on my dress. One of the mothers grabbed the
                  tail-tip of the train, folded the train "shut" so no undergarments showed,
                  then handed me the tip. When I griped that I couldn't hold it like that,
                  she adjusted the train and draped it over my arm.

                  Had I been wearing some kind of belt, I could have tucked that tip into the
                  belt. I have done *that* at SCA events before! It really helped to keep
                  the train out of the wet grass.

                  What was the lady (on SCA Garb?) saying about "experimental archelogy"?

                  Gwendolyn
                  (Janie)
                  ________________________________________________________________________

                  Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:56:30 -0800 (PST)
                  From: Laita da Padova <laita_dapadova@...>
                  Subject: giornea bustle?
                  As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
                  (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.
                  http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html
                  <snip>
                  Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
                  behind the wearer.

                  http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html
                  <snip>
                • Lady Satine
                  This is off topic... I had no Idea what any of htese things are called.. Thanks Amanda! Satine Amanda wrote: Note that these are not
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 26 9:32 PM
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                    This is off topic... I had no Idea what any of htese things are called.. Thanks Amanda!

                    Satine

                    Amanda <dakea@...> wrote:
                    Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two parts... with
                    a skirt separate from the bodice.
                    the skirt is gathered or pleated and the skirt tail is wrapped around her
                    elbow making it look like a bustle
                    The blue gown is a gamurra. and the train is tucked behind on the belt. Some
                    paintings show the gamurra with a belt on.

                    Amanda.
                    OL
                    Calontir



                    As I was looking (again) at Ghirlandaio's Resurrection of the Notary's Son
                    (detail), I noticed something I've never noticed before.

                    http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor18.html

                    The lady in the left foreground, her cream giornea appears to have a bulge
                    in the back. I always discounted it previously, but look closer at the girl
                    with the blue giornea standing next to her. The blue skirt hemline on the
                    bottom left has folds which make it look like the back drape is lifted off
                    the ground. Again, look at the girl in blue... another fold appears to the
                    left underneath her elbow, and another puff about her mid-upper arm. Since
                    her sleeve are close-fitting, it has to be her giornea-skirt fabric. To me
                    it really looks like the back of her giornea is pulled up in the back, and
                    (presumably) held in place by her gold belt.

                    The lady in creme/red to the left doesn't appear to be wearing a belt, but
                    the back of her giornea is pulled up, nonetheless. It is possible this is a
                    florentine bustle?



                    Frequently the gowns/giorneas were longer than floor length, so they trailed
                    behind the wearer.

                    http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor13.html



                    What do you all think about the proposition that ladies out and about
                    bustled up the back of their gowns to keep them from dragging at inopportune
                    times?



                    Bustles. what a crazy thought

                    -Laita



                    bus�tle (bsl) n.

                    A frame or pad to support and expand the fullness of the back of a
                    woman's skirt.
                    A bow, peplum, or gathering of material at the back of a woman's skirt
                    below the waist.

                    I'm referring to bustle as a gathering of material at the back of a woman's
                    skirt below (or in this case, also 'at') the waist.





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                  • Lady Satine
                    So basically we are all right?? its Bustled up according to your definition...I always think of teh old west and those bouncing bustles... so Obviously I had
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 26 9:36 PM
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                      So basically we are all right?? its "Bustled up" according to your definition...I always think of teh old west and those bouncing bustles... so Obviously I had not idea! LOL.. Thanks for the info! I appreciate it!

                      Satine

                      Diana Habra <dch@...> wrote:

                      > Note that these are not Giornee... the cream one is cut in two
                      > parts... with
                      > a skirt separate from the bodice.

                      I am going to disagree with Amanda about this one. I believe that it is a
                      giornea because there is no seam line that I can see on her right side
                      (the side facing us) on the cream fabric. To me, she is wearing a red
                      underdress and cream giornea over it.

                      Secondly, I would like us to use the proper term for what we are
                      describing. I would say that the skirts are "bustled up" meaning that
                      they are pulled up and secured somehow. We keep using the term "bustle"
                      in these posts which means a separate structure that is worn to hold a
                      garment away from the body in a specific way (like what the Victorians
                      did).

                      So can we please use the term "bustled up" instead of "bustle"?

                      Diana

                      www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
                      "Everything for the Costumer"


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