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RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Costuming woes...

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  • Christine Taylor
    Well, once I became a single mom I faced this very dilemma! I love my Elizabethans and Italians and had to change my construction techniques in order to dress
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 12 4:11 PM
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      Well, once I became a single mom I faced this very dilemma! I love my
      Elizabethans and Italians and had to change my construction techniques
      in order to dress myself. (My 7-year-old son can't hook or lace me, and
      by the time he's old enough to do it -- eww! I don't think so!)

      Fortunately, corsets can certainly be laced up the front -- in fact,
      Elizabeth's effigy corset does exactly that. And Elizabethan and Italian
      gowns often laced or hooked up the front.

      So as far as getting in your clothes by yourself, front-closing is the
      way to go. As to corsets, the Italian corsets can fit more softly than
      the Elizabethans because of the more natural bust line -- and if you're
      earlier in the century, early 1500s, the Florentines don't need a corset
      at all. Just a secure bodice. (Several layers, can lightly bone if you
      want to.)

      A well-made Elizabethan corset can be surprisingly non-offensive (I
      won't say exactly comfortable), but if it's going to be a problem for
      your health, stick with Italians for now -- wearing either the lighter
      Italian corset (Venetians, latter part of 1600s) or a sturdy bodice.

      Caitlin

      -----Original Message-----
      From: HL Catherine de Gray [mailto:sister_dark_swan@...]
      Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:59 PM
      To: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Costuming woes...


      So I have a question for all you lovely ladies who wear Renaissance
      clothing, whether Italian or English: how do you deal with getting
      dressed all the time?! Seriously, I have found myself wearing mainly
      cotehardies for the last 9 months simply because it's impossible to
      dress myself in the lovely clothing I like unless I can accost
      someone to come help me dress, and my lord is a very busy herald and
      fighter who doesn't generally have time. I *have* worn my
      Florentines (a la Bacchiacca) because they side-lace, though I don't
      like their silhouette on me as much. But do you all just have
      someone who helps you dress, or have you gone to strictly side-lace
      or front-lace, or...? I am thinking in particular of Bella and
      Oonagh's lovely Venetians -- don't you *have* to wear a corset
      underneath to get the right "look"? I've been wanting to get back
      into my Elizabethans as well as try some of the later Venetians but
      because of various health problems, being tightly laced and squeezed
      hasn't really been a desirable option. Is there any other way to get
      the similar "look" these garments are supposed to have, or any
      possible way I can get by without wearing a really tight corset?
      Otherwise methinks I am sticking with my cotehardies for a bit until
      my health improves. My thanks for letting me muse/ ramble.

      Gramercy,

      THL Catherine de Gray
      wearing Italians again at Western events, soon...





      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Bella
      ... ... But do you all just have ... The first Venetian I ever made, which was also incidentally the first garb I ever made, was indeed worn with a
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 12 4:23 PM
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        --- HL Catherine de Gray <sister_dark_swan@...> wrote:
        <snipped>... But do you all just have
        > someone who helps you dress, or have you gone to strictly side-lace
        > or front-lace, or...? I am thinking in particular of Bella and
        > Oonagh's lovely Venetians -- don't you *have* to wear a corset
        > underneath to get the right "look"?


        The first Venetian I ever made, which was also incidentally the first garb I ever made, was indeed
        worn with a corset, because the style of Venetian (very late 16thc) has a very wide opening in the
        front and I feel that in that situation only a corset or corset-like undergarment can help smooth
        out the bumps in front. Mind you, I can get into a back lacing corset all by myself thanks to
        extra-long laces. It does take a fair bit of wriggling and good range of arm movement.

        If you look at my later dresses, all of them are worn bra-less and corsetless (except for the
        Florentine) thanks to the fact that there is evidence for curves in Venetian bodices - they are
        not all invariably flat. It's not until you get the peascod look happening that a corset becomes
        more of a likelyhood, although it is not a definite must. The purple dress was based on an
        engraving circa early 1580s - and there's ample evidence in the curves department!

        I usually just interline fairly heavily and bone minimally. Most of the dresses I've made are
        fastened in front though. The purple dress has side-back lacing, and whilst I could do that up by
        myself if I had to, I usually take advantage of the male muscle around here. :-)



        >I've been wanting to get back
        > into my Elizabethans as well as try some of the later Venetians but
        > because of various health problems, being tightly laced and squeezed
        > hasn't really been a desirable option. Is there any other way to get
        > the similar "look" these garments are supposed to have, or any
        > possible way I can get by without wearing a really tight corset?


        No corset should be really tight. It just needs to flatten out the bumps. All you really need , if
        you want a front-laced venetian gown, is one with a narrower front opening, a good strong fabric
        for the dress and/or good interlining and minimal boning along the lacing openings.





        =====
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        Signora Bella Lucia da Verona

        The Realm of Venus: Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
        http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
        Italian Showcase of the Year Awards: VIEW THE WINNERS!!
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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      • Susan Farmer
        I get a friend to help me. My husband doesn t play (yet ... he s toying with the idea though). Jerusha
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 12 4:39 PM
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          I get a friend to help me. My husband doesn't play (yet ... he's
          toying with the idea though).

          Jerusha
        • Oonagh ONeill
          ... mainly ... and ... I have 3 cotehardies that I use for those I just need something to throw on moments. They are great. But do you all just have ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 12 5:38 PM
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            --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "HL Catherine
            de Gray" <sister_dark_swan@y...> wrote:
            > So I have a question for all you lovely ladies who wear Renaissance
            > clothing, whether Italian or English: how do you deal with getting
            > dressed all the time?! Seriously, I have found myself wearing
            mainly
            > cotehardies for the last 9 months simply because it's impossible to
            > dress myself in the lovely clothing I like unless I can accost
            > someone to come help me dress, and my lord is a very busy herald
            and
            > fighter who doesn't generally have time.

            I have 3 cotehardies that I use for those I just need something to
            throw on moments. They are great.


            But do you all just have
            > someone who helps you dress, or have you gone to strictly side-lace
            > or front-lace, or...? I am thinking in particular of Bella and
            > Oonagh's lovely Venetians -- don't you *have* to wear a corset
            > underneath to get the right "look"? I've been wanting to get back
            > into my Elizabethans as well as try some of the later Venetians but
            > because of various health problems, being tightly laced and
            squeezed
            > hasn't really been a desirable option.

            I'm so pleased that you like the style, it's realy very lovely.
            Lacing should be comfortable and firm, but not so tight as to cut off
            the circulation and breathing.

            Is there any other way to get
            > the similar "look" these garments are supposed to have, or any
            > possible way I can get by without wearing a really tight corset?
            > Otherwise methinks I am sticking with my cotehardies for a bit
            until
            > my health improves.

            Stick with the cotehardies for the moment it my advice, until your
            health is better then go nuts.

            As a rule I can get dressed on my own. But that is sans sleeves. I
            realy need some one else to put my sleeves on me when I wear them.
            Also the tweeking of the chemise to get it to sit just right. This
            easter was the occasion of our annual rowany festival. I whent out
            for the market, as I am a merchant, on the saturday. This is the
            dress I wore
            http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/la_valetta_inspiration.htm
            this is an early C16 Italian/Venetian of about 1520ish. This frock
            allows me a range of movement not comfortably possible in the late
            C16 Venetian gowns with their very wide shoulders. Techniquely I
            think that a corset should be worn under this dress, however I have
            never worn one as the bodice is sufficiently boned to hold me in
            place. I am looseing weight at the moment so the dress couldn't do
            it's usual job and I had to cheat and wear a bra. Oh part of
            compormise.

            I had to go back out to the event on sunday, so I decided to give my
            blue linen day dress it's first outting.
            http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/blue_linen_day_dress.htm
            I did get my ragazzo to help me on with this one. Mostly because it
            was more fun for me that way, but he did need to help me with my
            sleeves and adjust my chemise for me. (He didn't know that I could
            put the rest of it on on my own.) But I did need him to come over
            when I got home to help me escape from the frock. He was a very good
            ladies maid, he adjusted my chemise very nicely for me and said all
            the right things.

            These are my thoughts on late venetian dress. The design and the
            whys of wearing it the way I do and the evidence to back up my
            theories.
            http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/design_analysis_of_venetian_
            nobl.htm
            http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/gruesome_truth.htm
            The second article is kind of scary as it shows me getting dressed.
            These were photos that were never meant to be seen, but my then
            Mistress, Mistress Mathilde took them anyway and I decided I had
            sufficent sence of humor that I could put then to good use.

            My advice, get your health back and then play with Venetian dress.
            It's not a style for scaping out pots in the kitchen, it is a style
            for being a lady of the court in.


            Cheers

            Deb
            (Mistress Oonagh)

            http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/index.html

            http://au.geocities.com/oonaghsown/Mistress_Oonagh_laureling_Ceromony.
            htm
          • HL Catherine de Gray
            Oh my goodness, MISTRESS Oonagh!! CONGRATULATIONS!! I m so pleased to hear you were admitted to the Order of the Laurel, that is just fantastic! Ladies, thank
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 12 6:29 PM
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              Oh my goodness, MISTRESS Oonagh!! CONGRATULATIONS!! I'm so pleased
              to hear you were admitted to the Order of the Laurel, that is just
              fantastic!

              Ladies, thank you all very much for your advice and imformation. For
              instance, I had no idea I could front-lace a corset -- shows how
              much research I've done into underpinnings, eh? And thanks for
              letting me know it's not so much the tight-cinching as it is the
              smoothing. I think I am going to go ahead and make the new middle-
              class Elizabethans I was putting off, and the later period Italians
              I was mulling over. I can handle being lightly cinched, just
              couldn't go back to my old corset; my old court Elizabethans were
              always EXTREMELY and uncomfortably tight. What fun, I am going to
              start planning garb again!

              Catherine
            • Kiara
              Well the late 15th C. Florentine I wear doesn t constrict me at all. No corset, but no flopping or needing to readjust either and I m a DD cup. I dress myself
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 12 6:37 PM
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                Well the late 15th C. Florentine I wear doesn't constrict me at all. No corset, but no flopping or needing to readjust either and I'm a DD cup. I dress myself most of the time, but if I take too long to get into my sleeves Darling likes to help, but I don't let him cause this current dress is made of wool and he can't touch it. There is a bit of dancing around trying to get all the layers to play nice together. Sometimes I end up with my camasia hem around my shoulders if I decide to step into the dress. That is interesting to correct but I prefer it to having to be shallowed in yards of fabric if I put the dress over my head. I get claustrophobic with lots of material around my head but not when Im sleeping for some reason. If I leave the sleeves attached and then carefully put my arms in them while putting the bodice straps on my shoulders I can usually get it done without too much trouble, but practice makes perfect.

                --Kiara


                HL Catherine de Gray <sister_dark_swan@...> wrote:
                So I have a question for all you lovely ladies who wear Renaissance
                clothing, whether Italian or English: how do you deal with getting
                dressed all the time?! Seriously, I have found myself wearing mainly
                cotehardies for the last 9 months simply because it's impossible to
                dress myself in the lovely clothing I like unless I can accost
                someone to come help me dress, and my lord is a very busy herald and
                fighter who doesn't generally have time. I *have* worn my
                Florentines (a la Bacchiacca) because they side-lace, though I don't
                like their silhouette on me as much. But do you all just have
                someone who helps you dress, or have you gone to strictly side-lace
                or front-lace, or...? I am thinking in particular of Bella and
                Oonagh's lovely Venetians -- don't you *have* to wear a corset
                underneath to get the right "look"? I've been wanting to get back
                into my Elizabethans as well as try some of the later Venetians but
                because of various health problems, being tightly laced and squeezed
                hasn't really been a desirable option. Is there any other way to get
                the similar "look" these garments are supposed to have, or any
                possible way I can get by without wearing a really tight corset?
                Otherwise methinks I am sticking with my cotehardies for a bit until
                my health improves. My thanks for letting me muse/ ramble.

                Gramercy,

                THL Catherine de Gray
                wearing Italians again at Western events, soon...



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              • Lori Leppink
                Oonagh - I love the shade of blue of your linen dress! A couple questions. What kind of pleating did you do on the skirt? Is the skirt lined? The only way I
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 14 12:16 PM
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                  Oonagh -

                  I love the shade of blue of your linen dress!

                  A couple questions. What kind of pleating did you do on the skirt?
                  Is the skirt lined?

                  The only way I know to sew a lined skirt onto the bodice is cartridge
                  pleating, and when I look at the paintings, the skirts don't look
                  cartridge pleated to me.

                  Thanks!

                  Giovanna



                  --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Oonagh
                  ONeill" <oonaghsown@o...> wrote:
                  > --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "HL
                  Catherine
                  > de Gray" <sister_dark_swan@y...> wrote:
                  > > So I have a question for all you lovely ladies who wear
                  Renaissance
                  > > clothing, whether Italian or English: how do you deal with
                  getting
                  > > dressed all the time?! Seriously, I have found myself wearing
                  > mainly
                  > > cotehardies for the last 9 months simply because it's impossible
                  to
                  > > dress myself in the lovely clothing I like unless I can accost
                  > > someone to come help me dress, and my lord is a very busy herald
                  > and
                  > > fighter who doesn't generally have time.
                  >
                  > I have 3 cotehardies that I use for those I just need something to
                  > throw on moments. They are great.
                  >
                  >
                  > But do you all just have
                  > > someone who helps you dress, or have you gone to strictly side-
                  lace
                  > > or front-lace, or...? I am thinking in particular of Bella and
                  > > Oonagh's lovely Venetians -- don't you *have* to wear a corset
                  > > underneath to get the right "look"? I've been wanting to get back
                  > > into my Elizabethans as well as try some of the later Venetians
                  but
                  > > because of various health problems, being tightly laced and
                  > squeezed
                  > > hasn't really been a desirable option.
                  >
                  > I'm so pleased that you like the style, it's realy very lovely.
                  > Lacing should be comfortable and firm, but not so tight as to cut
                  off
                  > the circulation and breathing.
                  >
                  > Is there any other way to get
                  > > the similar "look" these garments are supposed to have, or any
                  > > possible way I can get by without wearing a really tight corset?
                  > > Otherwise methinks I am sticking with my cotehardies for a bit
                  > until
                  > > my health improves.
                  >
                  > Stick with the cotehardies for the moment it my advice, until your
                  > health is better then go nuts.
                  >
                  > As a rule I can get dressed on my own. But that is sans sleeves. I
                  > realy need some one else to put my sleeves on me when I wear them.
                  > Also the tweeking of the chemise to get it to sit just right. This
                  > easter was the occasion of our annual rowany festival. I whent out
                  > for the market, as I am a merchant, on the saturday. This is the
                  > dress I wore
                  > http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/la_valetta_inspiration.htm
                  > this is an early C16 Italian/Venetian of about 1520ish. This frock
                  > allows me a range of movement not comfortably possible in the late
                  > C16 Venetian gowns with their very wide shoulders. Techniquely I
                  > think that a corset should be worn under this dress, however I have
                  > never worn one as the bodice is sufficiently boned to hold me in
                  > place. I am looseing weight at the moment so the dress couldn't do
                  > it's usual job and I had to cheat and wear a bra. Oh part of
                  > compormise.
                  >
                  > I had to go back out to the event on sunday, so I decided to give
                  my
                  > blue linen day dress it's first outting.
                  > http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/blue_linen_day_dress.htm
                  > I did get my ragazzo to help me on with this one. Mostly because
                  it
                  > was more fun for me that way, but he did need to help me with my
                  > sleeves and adjust my chemise for me. (He didn't know that I could
                  > put the rest of it on on my own.) But I did need him to come over
                  > when I got home to help me escape from the frock. He was a very
                  good
                  > ladies maid, he adjusted my chemise very nicely for me and said all
                  > the right things.
                  >
                  > These are my thoughts on late venetian dress. The design and the
                  > whys of wearing it the way I do and the evidence to back up my
                  > theories.
                  >
                  http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/design_analysis_of_venetian_
                  > nobl.htm
                  > http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/gruesome_truth.htm
                  > The second article is kind of scary as it shows me getting
                  dressed.
                  > These were photos that were never meant to be seen, but my then
                  > Mistress, Mistress Mathilde took them anyway and I decided I had
                  > sufficent sence of humor that I could put then to good use.
                  >
                  > My advice, get your health back and then play with Venetian dress.
                  > It's not a style for scaping out pots in the kitchen, it is a style
                  > for being a lady of the court in.
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  >
                  > Deb
                  > (Mistress Oonagh)
                  >
                  > http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/index.html
                  >
                  >
                  http://au.geocities.com/oonaghsown/Mistress_Oonagh_laureling_Ceromony.
                  > htm
                • Oonagh ONeill
                  Hi Giovanna, The skirt is unlined and it is cartridge pleated. Very fine cartridge pleating. I wear an underskirt rather than line as I have evidence of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 14 6:53 PM
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                    Hi Giovanna,

                    The skirt is unlined and it is cartridge pleated. Very fine
                    cartridge pleating. I wear an underskirt rather than line as I have
                    evidence of underskirts rather than lining.

                    http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/blue_linen_day_dress.htm
                    http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/my_first_steps_into_venetian
                    _dre.htm
                    http://www.geocities.com/curvess2000/totally_wrong_dress_diary.htm

                    These should give you a better idea of how I made the dress.

                    Cheers

                    Deb
                    (Oonagh)



                    --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Lori Leppink"
                    <lorijaneleppink@y...> wrote:
                    > Oonagh -
                    >
                    > I love the shade of blue of your linen dress!
                    >
                    > A couple questions. What kind of pleating did you do on the
                    skirt?
                    > Is the skirt lined?
                    >
                    > The only way I know to sew a lined skirt onto the bodice is
                    cartridge
                    > pleating, and when I look at the paintings, the skirts don't look
                    > cartridge pleated to me.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    > Giovanna
                    >
                    http://au.geocities.com/oonaghsown/Mistress_Oonagh_laureling_Ceromony.
                    > > htm
                  • Lori Leppink
                    Hi Oonagh, Thank you! I really enjoy your website and I am planning on making something Venetian soon. Right now I am starting a dress based on several of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 21 11:30 AM
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                      Hi Oonagh,

                      Thank you! I really enjoy your website and I am planning on making
                      something Venetian soon. Right now I am starting a dress based on
                      several of Eleonora of Toledo's portraits. While it isn't Venetian,
                      there are similarities. I will post pictures here when I am done!

                      Giovanna



                      --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Oonagh
                      ONeill" <oonaghsown@o...> wrote:
                      > Hi Giovanna,
                      >
                      > The skirt is unlined and it is cartridge pleated. Very fine
                      > cartridge pleating. I wear an underskirt rather than line as I
                      have
                      > evidence of underskirts rather than lining.
                      >
                      > http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/blue_linen_day_dress.htm
                      >
                      http://members.optusnet.com.au/oonaghsown/my_first_steps_into_venetian
                      > _dre.htm
                      > http://www.geocities.com/curvess2000/totally_wrong_dress_diary.htm
                      >
                      > These should give you a better idea of how I made the dress.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Deb
                      > (Oonagh)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Lori
                      Leppink"
                      > <lorijaneleppink@y...> wrote:
                      > > Oonagh -
                      > >
                      > > I love the shade of blue of your linen dress!
                      > >
                      > > A couple questions. What kind of pleating did you do on the
                      > skirt?
                      > > Is the skirt lined?
                      > >
                      > > The only way I know to sew a lined skirt onto the bodice is
                      > cartridge
                      > > pleating, and when I look at the paintings, the skirts don't look
                      > > cartridge pleated to me.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks!
                      > >
                      > > Giovanna
                      > >
                      >
                      http://au.geocities.com/oonaghsown/Mistress_Oonagh_laureling_Ceromony.
                      > > > htm
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