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Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Lucretia's Hat

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  • Bella
    ... I m afraid I can t do more than hazard a guess - it does look a lot like wool, although I don t know how those tight little curls were achieved if it is.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 3, 2002
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      At 06:48 5/06/02, you wrote:

      >Hi. I'm new to this group, though I've been doing SCA costuming for some
      >time now, and really prefer Italian Ren.
      >
      >Does anyone know, or can any of you speculate on how Lucretia's hat is made
      >in Lorenzo Lotto's Lucretia from the National Gallery in London? It looks
      >to me like some sort of coiled ribbon or wool that is wrapped to cover a
      >roll underneath. The bows are where the ribbon goes around the roll to fix
      >the "stuff" to it. Anyone have a better idea of what the curly "stuff" is?
      >Any speculation of whether it is a roll or a full hat?

      I'm afraid I can't do more than hazard a guess - it does look a lot like
      wool, although I don't know how those tight little curls were achieved if
      it is. It could also be hair - I don't know if they would have used hair
      that way, but it can be curled.....


      >On another issue on the same painting. This dress looks like silk, but with
      >more body to it than silk I can buy these days. Any suggestions on how I
      >should stiffen or back the limp silk that I can buy to stand up to making a
      >dress like this?

      It would need to be carefully interlined, and this may be difficult -
      backing a fine limp fabric with a stiffer, heavier one might cause problems
      when it comes to sewing it, but it should be achievable..... Another option
      (if the fibre content isn't a concern) would be to see if you can find some
      cotton sateen (usually found in the upholstery/drapery section). This has
      the same body and sheen as the silk in that painting.

      Hope this helps,



      Bella

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    • nikki
      Hi. I m new to this group, though I ve been doing SCA costuming for some time now, and really prefer Italian Ren. Does anyone know, or can any of you speculate
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 4, 2002
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        Hi. I'm new to this group, though I've been doing SCA costuming for some
        time now, and really prefer Italian Ren.

        Does anyone know, or can any of you speculate on how Lucretia's hat is made
        in Lorenzo Lotto's Lucretia from the National Gallery in London? It looks
        to me like some sort of coiled ribbon or wool that is wrapped to cover a
        roll underneath. The bows are where the ribbon goes around the roll to fix
        the "stuff" to it. Anyone have a better idea of what the curly "stuff" is?
        Any speculation of whether it is a roll or a full hat?

        On another issue on the same painting. This dress looks like silk, but with
        more body to it than silk I can buy these days. Any suggestions on how I
        should stiffen or back the limp silk that I can buy to stand up to making a
        dress like this?

        Bianca
      • n2kye
        ... I have a couple of good closeups of this painting, though I won t be able to get to them until tomorrow. As I recall, the curly stuff is pinked or torn
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 4, 2002
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          --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...> wrote:

          > >Does anyone know, or can any of you speculate on how Lucretia's
          > >hat is made in Lorenzo Lotto's Lucretia from the National Gallery
          > >in London? It looks to me like some sort of coiled ribbon or wool
          > >that is wrapped to cover a roll underneath. The bows are where
          > >the ribbon goes around the roll to fix the "stuff" to it. Anyone
          > >have a better idea of what the curly "stuff" is?
          > >Any speculation of whether it is a roll or a full hat?

          I have a couple of good closeups of this painting, though I won't be
          able to get to them until tomorrow. As I recall, the "curly stuff" is
          pinked or torn strips of fabric sewn to a large-ish, donutty balzo of
          natural-colored fabric.

          > I'm afraid I can't do more than hazard a guess - it does look a lot
          > like wool, although I don't know how those tight little curls were

          I agree that it looks like wool

          > achieved if it is. It could also be hair - I don't know if they
          > would have used hair that way, but it can be curled.....

          In that case... cotton? (tree wool?)


          Brenda
          webwarren@...
        • curvess2000
          A friend of mine has made this dress and it s silly hat too. The base for the hat was indeed a balzo, then she curled 100m of ribbon and used a peroid
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 4, 2002
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            A friend of mine has made this dress and it's silly hat too.

            The base for the hat was indeed a balzo, then she curled 100m of
            ribbon and used a peroid stiffener, to produce the masses of curls
            seen on the balzo.

            The dress she produced she use raw silk and lined the bodice and
            sleeves in fur, just like the portrait.

            It's a very silly outfit, but very comfy and looks great on.

            Cheers

            Deb




            --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...> wrote:
            > At 06:48 5/06/02, you wrote:
            >
            > >Hi. I'm new to this group, though I've been doing SCA costuming
            for some
            > >time now, and really prefer Italian Ren.
            > >
            > >Does anyone know, or can any of you speculate on how Lucretia's
            hat is made
            > >in Lorenzo Lotto's Lucretia from the National Gallery in London?
            It looks
            > >to me like some sort of coiled ribbon or wool that is wrapped to
            cover a
            > >roll underneath. The bows are where the ribbon goes around the
            roll to fix
            > >the "stuff" to it. Anyone have a better idea of what the
            curly "stuff" is?
            > >Any speculation of whether it is a roll or a full hat?
            >
            > I'm afraid I can't do more than hazard a guess - it does look a lot
            like
            > wool, although I don't know how those tight little curls were
            achieved if
            > it is. It could also be hair - I don't know if they would have used
            hair
            > that way, but it can be curled.....
            >
            >
            > >On another issue on the same painting. This dress looks like
            silk, but with
            > >more body to it than silk I can buy these days. Any suggestions
            on how I
            > >should stiffen or back the limp silk that I can buy to stand up to
            making a
            > >dress like this?
            >
            > It would need to be carefully interlined, and this may be
            difficult -
            > backing a fine limp fabric with a stiffer, heavier one might cause
            problems
            > when it comes to sewing it, but it should be achievable.....
            Another option
            > (if the fibre content isn't a concern) would be to see if you can
            find some
            > cotton sateen (usually found in the upholstery/drapery section).
            This has
            > the same body and sheen as the silk in that painting.
            >
            > Hope this helps,
            >
            >
            >
            > Bella
            >
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          • Bella
            ... There are really too many hats in just that shape and size for me to think it is anything other than a hat decorated with *something*. As I said before, it
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 6, 2002
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              At 11:06 8/06/02, you wrote:
              ><snipped>
              >If Lucrezia had really curly hair that tended to frizz up, she might
              >have bound the close-in part while it was still wet and malleable,
              >while the rest of it dried in little curls, at which point it could
              >be wrapped around her head and tied with ribbons as shown in the
              >portrait. Except for the bleached end-curls we see, this is reading
              >is not inconsistent with the portrait proper.

              There are really too many hats in just that shape and size for me to think
              it is anything other than a hat decorated with *something*. As I said
              before, it does look like hair or wool. If it is hair I don't think it is
              still attached to her head.


              Bella

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            • nikki
              ... Do you think your friend might want to discuss it with me on email? Actually I d love to see photos and find out how she constructed the dress and the hat.
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 7, 2002
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                > From: curvess2000
                > Subject: Re: Lucretia's Hat
                >
                > A friend of mine has made this dress and it's silly hat too.
                Do you think your friend might want to discuss it with me on email?
                Actually I'd love to see photos and find out how she constructed the dress
                and the hat.
                >
                > The base for the hat was indeed a balzo, then she curled 100m of
                > ribbon and used a peroid stiffener, to produce the masses of curls
                > seen on the balzo.
                Is Balzo the correct word? This portrait is dated 1533. The big bulbous
                balzos were worn in the first half of the 15th century, so it's at least 80
                years late. Were these flat donut-like hats from the 16th century also
                called balzos? If it's a full hat and not a roll, then my theory that the
                bows are ribbons that hold the curly stuff to the hat is wrong.

                > The dress she produced she use raw silk and lined the bodice and
                > sleeves in fur, just like the portrait.
                >
                > It's a very silly outfit, but very comfy and looks great on.
                Comfy? With a 16th century corset? Are we talking about the same dress?

                Bianca
              • n2kye
                ... OK, looking at this in the detail, it looks like the curly stuff is periodically bound up by ribbons that are tied in decorative bows. The curl looks to be
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 8, 2002
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                  --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., "n2kye" <webwarren@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...>
                  wrote:

                  > > >Anyone have a better idea of what the curly "stuff" is?
                  > > >Any speculation of whether it is a roll or a full hat?
                  >
                  > I have a couple of good closeups of this painting

                  > > I'm afraid I can't do more than hazard a guess - it does look a
                  > > lot like wool, although I don't know how those tight little curls
                  > > were achieved if it is. It could also be hair - I don't know if
                  > > they would have used hair that way, but it can be curled.....

                  OK, looking at this in the detail, it looks like the curly stuff is
                  periodically bound up by ribbons that are tied in decorative bows.
                  The curl looks to be about the same texture as the side-burn curl at
                  Lucrezia's right temple, so except for color, it could easily be her
                  own hair. (If she bleached her hair, and it took more at the ends
                  than at the scalp, it could *be* her own hair; ditto if it darkened
                  as she grew out of childhood.) Peter Humfrey, in his book on Lotto,
                  suggests that it is her own hair, bound with ribbons (p. 110, first
                  third of page):
                  The sitter, who has been convincingly identified
                  on the basis of the picture's provenance, married
                  Benedetto di Girolamo Pesaro on 19 January 1533,
                  and as her hair is tied up, indicating that she is
                  no longer a fiancee or a bride, this picture
                  probably postdates the wedding.(55)
                  The footnote says "Jaffe (1971)", referring to
                  Jaffe, M. "Pesaro Family Portraits: Pordenone, Lotto, and Titian",
                  Burlington Magazine, CXIII (1971), pp. 696-702.

                  If Lucrezia had really curly hair that tended to frizz up, she might
                  have bound the close-in part while it was still wet and malleable,
                  while the rest of it dried in little curls, at which point it could
                  be wrapped around her head and tied with ribbons as shown in the
                  portrait. Except for the bleached end-curls we see, this is reading
                  is not inconsistent with the portrait proper.


                  Brenda
                  webwarren@...
                • n2kye
                  ... That was my first opinion as well, and it sure as heck makes a lot more sense than hair that is dark or reddish for the first foot or so and then white
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                    --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...>
                    responded to my post:

                    > At 11:06 8/06/02, you wrote:
                    > >If Lucrezia had really curly hair that tended to frizz up, she
                    > >might have bound the close-in part while it was still wet and
                    > >malleable, while the rest of it dried in little curls, at which
                    > >point it could be wrapped around her head and tied with ribbons...
                    > >portrait. Except for the bleached end-curls we see, this is reading
                    > >is not inconsistent with the portrait proper.


                    > There are really too many hats in just that shape and size for me
                    > to think it is anything other than a hat decorated with
                    > *something*.

                    That was my first opinion as well, and it sure as heck makes a lot
                    more sense than hair that is dark or reddish for the first foot or so
                    and then white afterwards, but when I look at the pic and I look at
                    what Humfrey saw, I can see why it *could* be her hair: the ribbons
                    go around the whole thickness of it, as if it were reeds being bound
                    by ribbons, and the texture of the ribbon-bound curls appears to be
                    the same as that of the "sideburn curl" at her right temple. I need
                    to scan in the detail pic and post it here so you can see what's
                    going on there.

                    > As I said before, it does look like hair or wool. If it is hair I
                    > don't think it is still attached to her head.

                    Now that *is* a possibility, IMO. Or perhaps it's just wool, coaxed
                    and made into that hat? At this point, I'm less convinced that it's a
                    hat than I was three days ago -- but I'm not convinced that it's her
                    own hair, either. *However*, since I have documentation of a
                    different opinion/observation, I find it not unreasonable to play the
                    Devil's Advocate for the purpose of further investigation and
                    understanding of the image and the styles it represents.


                    Brenda
                    webwarren@...
                  • Eric
                    ... Might be a good idea to scan it for the list, although I m quite happy with the image of that painting in Lives... . ... Hmmm...well, I don t usually use
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                      At 03:32 11/06/02, you wrote:
                      >I can see why it *could* be her hair: the ribbons
                      >go around the whole thickness of it, as if it were reeds being bound
                      >by ribbons, and the texture of the ribbon-bound curls appears to be
                      >the same as that of the "sideburn curl" at her right temple. I need
                      >to scan in the detail pic and post it here so you can see what's
                      >going on there.

                      Might be a good idea to scan it for the list, although I'm quite happy with
                      the image of that painting in "Lives...".


                      > > As I said before, it does look like hair or wool. If it is hair I
                      > > don't think it is still attached to her head.
                      >
                      >Now that *is* a possibility, IMO. Or perhaps it's just wool, coaxed
                      >and made into that hat? At this point, I'm less convinced that it's a
                      >hat than I was three days ago -- but I'm not convinced that it's her
                      >own hair, either. *However*, since I have documentation of a
                      >different opinion/observation, I find it not unreasonable to play the
                      >Devil's Advocate for the purpose of further investigation and
                      >understanding of the image and the styles it represents.

                      Hmmm...well, I don't usually use "documentation" in that manner -
                      documentation is what I find when I find a period source explaining
                      something, nevertheless, what you have is the opinion of Peter Humfrey, art
                      historian (?) who says "The sitter, who has been convincingly identified on
                      the basis of the picture's provenance, married Benedetto di Girolamo Pesaro
                      on 19 January 1533, and as her hair is tied up, indicating that she is no
                      longer a fiancee or a bride, this picture probably postdates the wedding."

                      When I read that I construed the words to mean "she has her hair up under
                      that hat", not that he was implying that it is her own hair tied
                      up......but that's just the way *I* read it.



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                    • Bella
                      Sorry - sent this with my sweetie s name on it last time, sending again to clear up confusion! :) ... Bella ... Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                        Sorry - sent this with my sweetie's name on it last time, sending again to
                        clear up confusion! :)

                        At 08:06 11/06/02, you wrote:

                        >At 03:32 11/06/02, you wrote:
                        > >I can see why it *could* be her hair: the ribbons
                        > >go around the whole thickness of it, as if it were reeds being bound
                        > >by ribbons, and the texture of the ribbon-bound curls appears to be
                        > >the same as that of the "sideburn curl" at her right temple. I need
                        > >to scan in the detail pic and post it here so you can see what's
                        > >going on there.
                        >
                        >Might be a good idea to scan it for the list, although I'm quite happy with
                        >the image of that painting in "Lives...".
                        >
                        >
                        > > > As I said before, it does look like hair or wool. If it is hair I
                        > > > don't think it is still attached to her head.
                        > >
                        > >Now that *is* a possibility, IMO. Or perhaps it's just wool, coaxed
                        > >and made into that hat? At this point, I'm less convinced that it's a
                        > >hat than I was three days ago -- but I'm not convinced that it's her
                        > >own hair, either. *However*, since I have documentation of a
                        > >different opinion/observation, I find it not unreasonable to play the
                        > >Devil's Advocate for the purpose of further investigation and
                        > >understanding of the image and the styles it represents.
                        >
                        >Hmmm...well, I don't usually use "documentation" in that manner -
                        >documentation is what I find when I find a period source explaining
                        >something, nevertheless, what you have is the opinion of Peter Humfrey, art
                        >historian (?) who says "The sitter, who has been convincingly identified on
                        >the basis of the picture's provenance, married Benedetto di Girolamo Pesaro
                        >on 19 January 1533, and as her hair is tied up, indicating that she is no
                        >longer a fiancee or a bride, this picture probably postdates the wedding."
                        >
                        >When I read that I construed the words to mean "she has her hair up under
                        >that hat", not that he was implying that it is her own hair tied
                        >up......but that's just the way *I* read it.




                        Bella

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                      • n2kye
                        ... Right now, I have to go off to the museum library to find Lives , if I should need it particularly. ... Yes, I have a document that sounds like he reads
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                          --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...> wrote:

                          > >Might be a good idea to scan it for the list, although I'm quite
                          > >happy with the image of that painting in "Lives...".

                          Right now, I have to go off to the museum library to find "Lives", if
                          I should need it particularly.

                          > > >own hair, either. *However*, since I have documentation of a
                          > > >different opinion/observation

                          > >Hmmm...well, I don't usually use "documentation" in that manner -
                          > >documentation is what I find when I find a period source explaining
                          > >something, nevertheless, what you have is the opinion of Peter
                          > >Humfrey, art historian (?)

                          Yes, I have a document that sounds like he reads it differently ;)

                          > >When I read that I construed the words to mean "she has her hair
                          > >up under that hat", not that he was implying that it is her own
                          > >hair tied up...

                          I've never heard anyone use the wording "hair tied up" to mean "hair
                          is put up under a headdress" (hat, veil, etc.), and some recent
                          reading about Raphael's painting known as "La Velata" ("The veiled
                          woman") kinda spilled over so that I see "hair up=married; hair
                          covered=has (had) kids"... In this mixed conglomeration of places and
                          times, I read it that since she would have been married that same
                          year, and there probably wasn't enough time for her to have borne
                          children yet, she would have her hair up, but otherwise uncovered.

                          > >...but that's just the way *I* read it.

                          :)


                          Brenda
                          webwarren@...
                        • Bella
                          ... LOL...no...not under her hat specifically, just UP. You know the old argument about wearing headwear ....everyone that is married wears their hair up -
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                            At 09:20 11/06/02, you wrote:

                            >I've never heard anyone use the wording "hair tied up" to mean "hair
                            >is put up under a headdress" (hat, veil, etc.),

                            LOL...no...not "under her hat" specifically, just UP. You know the old
                            argument about wearing headwear ....everyone that is married wears their
                            hair up - whether or not is it under a veil or hat of some kind isn't
                            pertinant... :)

                            > and some recent
                            >reading about Raphael's painting known as "La Velata" ("The veiled
                            >woman") kinda spilled over so that I see "hair up=married; hair
                            >covered=has (had) kids"...


                            "Married", yes...."has had kids" no - not that I've ever discovered.....

                            >In this mixed conglomeration of places and
                            >times, I read it that since she would have been married that same
                            >year, and there probably wasn't enough time for her to have borne
                            >children yet, she would have her hair up, but otherwise uncovered.
                            >
                            > > >...but that's just the way *I* read it.

                            Yes, I agree that he meant that she has her hair up, but not that the curly
                            white stuff is the hair that he refers to. Whether or not the stuff that is
                            attached to her hat is her own hair is another matter....it would be a cool
                            way of displaying lots and lots of baby curls, although I think they had
                            something against cutting a woman's hair.....which brings me back to wool....


                            Bella

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                          • n2kye
                            ... discovered..... Two of the Raphael titles at Strand that I haven t purchased, and I think one more general title that I have in my own collection,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 10, 2002
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                              --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...> wrote:

                              > >reading about Raphael's painting known as "La Velata" ("The veiled
                              > >woman") kinda spilled over so that I see "hair up=married; hair
                              > >covered=has (had) kids"...
                              >
                              > "Married", yes...."has had kids" no - not that I've ever
                              discovered.....

                              Two of the Raphael titles at Strand that I haven't purchased, and I
                              think one more general title that I have in my own collection,
                              mentioned specifically that the veil indicated that the woman was a
                              *matron*, and that that was defined as a woman who had borne
                              children. Now, do bear in mind that Raphael was not Venetian, and "La
                              Velata" predates "Lucretia" by I think a couple of decades...

                              > Yes, I agree that he meant that she has her hair up, but not that
                              > the curly white stuff is the hair that he refers to.

                              LOL! Yeah, I thought it a bit strange, but when I looked at her
                              sideburn curl and looked at the curls around her head, and back, and
                              forth, they seem to be of similar tightness and texture (even if
                              grossly dissimilar in color).

                              > Whether or not the stuff that is attached to her hat is her own
                              > hair is another matter....it would be a cool way of displaying
                              > lots and lots of baby curls, although I think they had
                              > something against cutting a woman's hair...

                              And taking this (her-own-hair) reading, I see a woman who has bound
                              the hair nearest her scalp tightly to her head -- probably either
                              when damp, or because it's been weighed down by hair oils -- and
                              then, since her hair was so frizzy, just took the hank of what
                              remained and kept wrapping it (*un*braided) around her crown, letting
                              the ends fall where they might, and then instead of pinning it down
                              with hairpins, binding it down with decorative ribbons.

                              >...which brings me back to wool....

                              Which was my first take on the item, also.


                              Brenda
                              webwarren@...
                            • n2kye
                              ... Close-up is at Note particularly the vertical wraps where the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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                                --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella <anabell.w@o...> wrote:

                                >At 03:32 11/06/02, you wrote:
                                > >I can see why it *could* be her hair: the ribbons go around
                                > >the whole thickness of it, as if it were reeds being bound
                                > >by ribbons, and the texture of the ribbon-bound curls appears to be
                                > >the same as that of the "sideburn curl" at her right temple. I need
                                > >to scan in the detail pic and post it here so you can see what's
                                > >going on there.
                                >
                                >Might be a good idea to scan it for the list, although I'm quite
                                >happy with the image of that painting in "Lives...".

                                Close-up is at
                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/italianrenaissancecostuming/files/lotto
                                -lucretia_head.JPG>


                                Note particularly the vertical wraps where the more horizontal bows
                                are shown.



                                Brenda
                                webwarren@...
                              • Bella
                                ... Depending on the construction of the hat beneath, that looks like those curls could be sewn/attached to something wrapped around it and tied in place with
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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                                  At 01:15 13/06/02, you wrote:

                                  >Close-up is at
                                  ><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/italianrenaissancecostuming/files/lotto>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/italianrenaissancecostuming/files/lotto
                                  >-lucretia_head.JPG>

                                  Depending on the construction of the hat beneath, that looks like those
                                  curls could be sewn/attached to something wrapped around it and tied in
                                  place with the ribbons....it's too thick and even for it to be her own
                                  hair.....


                                  Bella

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                                • lucreziadelbelcoure
                                  Back to that silly hat. I found a picture of more women who have their hair/ hat done this way. To me this picture suggests that it really is hair.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                    Back to that silly hat. I found a picture of more women who have
                                    their hair/ hat done this way. To me this picture suggests that it
                                    really is hair.
                                    http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/d/dossi
                                    Lucrezia
                                  • lucreziadelbelcoure
                                    ... Oops, I forgot to mention that the painting is Witchcraft Lucrezia
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                      --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., "lucreziadelbelcoure"
                                      <susang45@j...> wrote:
                                      > Back to that silly hat. I found a picture of more women who have
                                      > their hair/ hat done this way. To me this picture suggests that it
                                      > really is hair.
                                      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/d/dossi
                                      > Lucrezia
                                      Oops,
                                      I forgot to mention that the painting is "Witchcraft"
                                      Lucrezia
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