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Electric redo

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  • Dave
    Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 13, 2011
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      Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
      Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.

      Dave
      S/V Post Production
    • Steven Ellsworth
      Dave: Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 13, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Dave:

        Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.

        We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.

        Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.

        Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.

        Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)

        Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.

        If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.

        Best wishes,

        Steve

        405-517-7243

        --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:

        From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
        Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
        To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM

         



        Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
        Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.

        Dave
        S/V Post Production

      • Dave
        Steve I d love to chat with you. I m not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 14, 2011
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          Steve I'd love to chat with you. I'm not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave

          --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dave:
          >
          > Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.
          >
          > We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might
          > need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.
          >
          > Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.
          >
          > Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.
          >
          > Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)
          >
          > Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.
          >
          > If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Steve
          >
          > 405-517-7243
          >
          > --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
          > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
          > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM
          >
          >
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          >  
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          >
          > Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
          >
          > Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > S/V Post Production
          >
        • Steven Ellsworth
          Dave: We re in Oklahoma. Call any reasonable time. I work for myself. Steve 405-517-7243 ... From: Dave Subject: [IslanderFreeport41]
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 14, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Dave:

            We're in Oklahoma. Call any reasonable time. I work for myself.

            Steve

            405-517-7243

            --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Dave <hogryder86@...> wrote:

            From: Dave <hogryder86@...>
            Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Electric redo
            To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 7:35 AM

             

            Steve I'd love to chat with you. I'm not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave

            --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dave:
            >
            > Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.
            >
            > We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might
            > need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.
            >
            > Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.
            >
            > Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.
            >
            > Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)
            >
            > Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.
            >
            > If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Steve
            >
            > 405-517-7243
            >
            > --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
            > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
            > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
            >
            > Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.
            >
            >
            >
            > Dave
            >
            > S/V Post Production
            >

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