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Re: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Water Tank

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  • Steven Ellsworth
    Dave: Been down the same road on the wiring. The recent insurance surveyor actually praised my work, though it could have been a lot better! Good enough to be
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 1, 2011
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      Dave:

      Been down the same road on the wiring. The recent insurance surveyor actually praised my work, though it could have been a lot better! Good enough to be safe, servicable and easy to fix was my goal.

      I too have contemplated pulling the water tank due to age. Recently, I went out to start and found that it looks like it has been pulled before I got the boat 11 years ago so I quit. 5 years ago before cruise #2, we removed the genset and put a bulkhead on the sbd side of the engine room to cut down the size, then cut a hole in the primary bulkhead on the stbd side and installed a quarter berth with a 50 gal poly tank under it. It was a big improvement to the boat and gives us a place to sleep while underway. This spring, I am planning on testing the old water tank to see if it leaks. If not, I'm going to leave it alone and pipe the watermaker into it as it will be close to the outlet.

      We had to pull the diesel tank while in Marsh Harbor living aboard and it was a huge and very invasive job. We ended up making lemonade out of lemons though and installed a 13 gal day tank and left for two weeks while the new tanks were made. It was one of the best times on the trip as it forced us to sail pretty much everywhere and use our fuel for the genset and passes.

      If it was my only tank or I was going to rely on it for extended cruising,  I'd pull it. Me, I'm waiting until absolutely necessary then I'll pull it while cruising if it starts to leak if the watermaker and 50 gal auxiliary tank are not enough.

      Big Tuna has some excellent pictures of the job on their photo album. I think I have some of the quarter berth after it was finished on Destiny's album.

      Best of luck and Happy New Year!

      Steve

      SV Destiny Oklahoma


      --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:

      From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
      Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Oh it has been so long.......
      To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 8:58 PM

       

      Hey Steve.. Just curious. What are you gonna do with the watermaker water? I feel a need to replace my water tank but don't have the courage yet to cut up the sole. It's not leaking and water from it has no odor but it's 33 years old. I have a WM but don't see much sense in putting its water in a tank I'm not sure of. Oh well... I just removed every piece of DC wire in the boat and am looking forward to rewiring her starting Monday altho my schematic drawing has suffered a bit since high school! Hoping for no more snow this winter.

      Dave
      S/V Post Production

    • Dave
      Hi Steve, The original tank is the only water holding I ve got. I m starting the wiring on Monday and really looking forward to it. The pressure water system
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 1, 2011
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        Hi Steve,

        The original tank is the only water holding I've got. I'm starting the wiring on Monday and really looking forward to it. The pressure water system in the engine room is next and then the fuel system. I'm thinking I'll do this stuff this winter and hope I've got my courage up next winter to tackle the water tank. I'm only going to be cruising the Chesapeake Bay this summer so water isn't going to be a huge issue.

        The previous owner cut a hole in the fuel tank and put a 65 gallon tank inside the old one but I want to carry more than that so when I do it I'm gonna replace water and fuel at the same time I guess. I can only imagine what a beast of a job that's gonna be. I'm going to check out yours and Big Tuna's pics.

        I'm going to retire in 2 years planning to cruise till I can't anymore and I want all this stuff to be done so I can just focus on maintenance.

        Happy New Year to you and to all of the group!

        Dave

        S/V Post Production
      • bradley
        Hey all, The Rocna was great over the last storms. We always anchor out in a local anchorage for the storms here. We were able to test run/ride the anchor
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 1, 2011
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          Hey all,

          The Rocna was great over the last storms. We always anchor out in a local anchorage for the storms here. We were able to test run/ride the anchor before Christmas and we didn't budge. Granted we also had 80 feet of 3/8 BBB chain out too. The bow sprite has to be modified for this anchor. Just elongating the original opening does the trick. It has to be opened up all the way to the main tube forward. I will have pictures from the new counter as we start that project. My Dad/man in charge of all wood things on the boat is coming down in a couple weeks to spec out the work. Then he will come back a few weeks later to tackle the project.

          Family on Big Tuna
        • Don
          I m looking forward to seeing those pictures. Don s/v Grasshopper #130 ... From: bradley To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 01,
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 1, 2011
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            I'm looking forward to seeing those pictures.
             
            Don
            s/v Grasshopper #130
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bradley
            Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 9:05 PM
            Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Oh it has been so long.......

             

            Hey all,

            The Rocna was great over the last storms. We always anchor out in a local anchorage for the storms here. We were able to test run/ride the anchor before Christmas and we didn't budge. Granted we also had 80 feet of 3/8 BBB chain out too. The bow sprite has to be modified for this anchor. Just elongating the original opening does the trick. It has to be opened up all the way to the main tube forward. I will have pictures from the new counter as we start that project. My Dad/man in charge of all wood things on the boat is coming down in a couple weeks to spec out the work. Then he will come back a few weeks later to tackle the project.

            Family on Big Tuna

          • Steven Ellsworth
            Hi Dave: We did what I think is the most practical solution with our fuel tanks; we split them into two 65 gal wing tanks. I measured a 35 gal poly holding
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2011
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              Hi Dave:

              We did what I think is the most practical solution with our fuel tanks; we split them into two 65 gal "wing" tanks. I measured a 35 gal poly holding tank and fit it between them. The poly tank was just short enough to put 5 grp 27 house batteries on top of it so in the space of the old fuel tank we now have:

              1 x stb 65 gal fuel
              1 x 65 gal port
              1 x 35 gal holding tank.
              5 x 12V batteries.

              It has a hatch cover right under the steps to get to the batteries.

              If you can do this, you won't be disappointed in the results.

              Next we cut out the top of the old "holding tank" in the bilge under the engine to increase the depth of the bilge so water is not sloshing around if one of the bilge pumps fail. This is a cause of many problems with the engine oil pan rusting out and the fuel and water tank corrosion issues if bilge water gets too high and enters their cavities. As you will find, there is no way for the water to drain out from the plywood cavities.

              Good luck!

              Steve

              --- On Sat, 1/1/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:

              From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
              Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Water Tank
              To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 7:39 PM

               

              Hi Steve,

              The original tank is the only water holding I've got. I'm starting the wiring on Monday and really looking forward to it. The pressure water system in the engine room is next and then the fuel system. I'm thinking I'll do this stuff this winter and hope I've got my courage up next winter to tackle the water tank. I'm only going to be cruising the Chesapeake Bay this summer so water isn't going to be a huge issue.

              The previous owner cut a hole in the fuel tank and put a 65 gallon tank inside the old one but I want to carry more than that so when I do it I'm gonna replace water and fuel at the same time I guess. I can only imagine what a beast of a job that's gonna be. I'm going to check out yours and Big Tuna's pics.

              I'm going to retire in 2 years planning to cruise till I can't anymore and I want all this stuff to be done so I can just focus on maintenance.

              Happy New Year to you and to all of the group!

              Dave

              S/V Post Production

            • keith_gerow
              Thanks for the Rocna information. What size abchor do you have? Keith
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                Thanks for the Rocna information. What size abchor do you have?
                Keith

                --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, "bradley" <windthief1904@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey all,
                >
                > The Rocna was great over the last storms. We always anchor out in a local anchorage for the storms here. We were able to test run/ride the anchor before Christmas and we didn't budge. Granted we also had 80 feet of 3/8 BBB chain out too. The bow sprite has to be modified for this anchor. Just elongating the original opening does the trick. It has to be opened up all the way to the main tube forward. I will have pictures from the new counter as we start that project. My Dad/man in charge of all wood things on the boat is coming down in a couple weeks to spec out the work. Then he will come back a few weeks later to tackle the project.
                >
                > Family on Big Tuna
                >
              • Dave
                Hey Steve, that sounds like a great solution. Twice the fuel I can carry now and I m not happy with the location of the battery banks. That looks like a great
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                  Hey Steve, that sounds like a great solution. Twice the fuel I can carry now and I'm not happy with the location of the battery banks. That looks like a great place to have them. Did you have to have the tanks custom made?

                  --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dave:
                  >
                  > We did what I think is the most practical solution with our fuel tanks; we split them into two 65 gal "wing" tanks. I measured a 35 gal poly holding tank and fit it between them. The poly tank was just short enough to put 5 grp 27 house batteries on top of it so in the space of the old fuel tank we now have:
                  >
                  > 1 x stb 65 gal fuel
                  > 1 x 65 gal port
                  > 1 x 35 gal holding tank.
                  > 5 x 12V batteries.
                  >
                  > It has a hatch cover right under the steps to get to the batteries.
                  >
                  > If you can do this, you won't be disappointed in the results.
                  >
                  > Next we cut out the top of the old "holding tank" in the bilge under the engine to increase the depth of the bilge so water is not sloshing around if one of the bilge pumps fail. This is a cause of many problems with the engine oil pan rusting out and the fuel and water tank corrosion issues if bilge water gets too high and enters their cavities. As you will find, there is no way for the water to drain out from the plywood cavities.
                  >
                  > Good luck!
                  >
                  > Steve
                  >
                  > --- On Sat, 1/1/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                  > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Water Tank
                  > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 7:39 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Steve,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The original tank is the only water holding I've got. I'm starting the wiring on Monday and really looking forward to it. The pressure water system in the engine room is next and then the fuel system. I'm thinking I'll do this stuff this winter and hope I've got my courage up next winter to tackle the water tank. I'm only going to be cruising the Chesapeake Bay this summer so water isn't going to be a huge issue.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The previous owner cut a hole in the fuel tank and put a 65 gallon tank inside the old one but I want to carry more than that so when I do it I'm gonna replace water and fuel at the same time I guess. I can only imagine what a beast of a job that's gonna be. I'm going to check out yours and Big Tuna's pics.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm going to retire in 2 years planning to cruise till I can't anymore and I want all this stuff to be done so I can just focus on maintenance.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Happy New Year to you and to all of the group!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > S/V Post Production
                  >
                • Steven Ellsworth
                  Yes, the tanks were custom made in Marsh Harbor for about $ 1000 each. They are 1/4 inch aluminum. You have to be sure to get all the dimensions right and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 4, 2011
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                    Yes, the tanks were custom made in Marsh Harbor for about $ 1000 each. They are 1/4 inch aluminum. You have to be sure to get all the dimensions right and allow for 3/4" plywood bulkheads between everything....They are set on that expanding spray foam then blocked into place. Also, I moved all the fillers and the waste pump out the the center step for shorter hose runs. Port filler is on port side and stbd filler on stbd side etc. We originally had the waste pump out in its existing location on the side deck, however our pump out station did not have enough oomph to suck that far so we shortened the run to the step.

                    Good luck,

                    Steve

                    --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:

                    From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                    Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Water Tank
                    To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 9:25 PM

                     

                    Hey Steve, that sounds like a great solution. Twice the fuel I can carry now and I'm not happy with the location of the battery banks. That looks like a great place to have them. Did you have to have the tanks custom made?

                    --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Dave:
                    >
                    > We did what I think is the most practical solution with our fuel tanks; we split them into two 65 gal "wing" tanks. I measured a 35 gal poly holding tank and fit it between them. The poly tank was just short enough to put 5 grp 27 house batteries on top of it so in the space of the old fuel tank we now have:
                    >
                    > 1 x stb 65 gal fuel
                    > 1 x 65 gal port
                    > 1 x 35 gal holding tank.
                    > 5 x 12V batteries.
                    >
                    > It has a hatch cover right under the steps to get to the batteries.
                    >
                    > If you can do this, you won't be disappointed in the results.
                    >
                    > Next we cut out the top of the old "holding tank" in the bilge under the engine to increase the depth of the bilge so water is not sloshing around if one of the bilge pumps fail. This is a cause of many problems with the engine oil pan rusting out and the fuel and water tank corrosion issues if bilge water gets too high and enters their cavities. As you will find, there is no way for the water to drain out from the plywood cavities.
                    >
                    > Good luck!
                    >
                    > Steve
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 1/1/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                    > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Water Tank
                    > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 7:39 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Steve,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The original tank is the only water holding I've got. I'm starting the wiring on Monday and really looking forward to it. The pressure water system in the engine room is next and then the fuel system. I'm thinking I'll do this stuff this winter and hope I've got my courage up next winter to tackle the water tank. I'm only going to be cruising the Chesapeake Bay this summer so water isn't going to be a huge issue.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The previous owner cut a hole in the fuel tank and put a 65 gallon tank inside the old one but I want to carry more than that so when I do it I'm gonna replace water and fuel at the same time I guess. I can only imagine what a beast of a job that's gonna be. I'm going to check out yours and Big Tuna's pics.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm going to retire in 2 years planning to cruise till I can't anymore and I want all this stuff to be done so I can just focus on maintenance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Happy New Year to you and to all of the group!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > S/V Post Production
                    >

                  • Dave
                    Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 13, 2011
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                      Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
                      Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.

                      Dave
                      S/V Post Production
                    • Steven Ellsworth
                      Dave: Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 13, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dave:

                        Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.

                        We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.

                        Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.

                        Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.

                        Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)

                        Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.

                        If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.

                        Best wishes,

                        Steve

                        405-517-7243

                        --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:

                        From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                        Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
                        To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM

                         



                        Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
                        Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.

                        Dave
                        S/V Post Production

                      • Dave
                        Steve I d love to chat with you. I m not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 14, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve I'd love to chat with you. I'm not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave

                          --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dave:
                          >
                          > Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.
                          >
                          > We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might
                          > need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.
                          >
                          > Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.
                          >
                          > Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.
                          >
                          > Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)
                          >
                          > Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.
                          >
                          > If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.
                          >
                          > Best wishes,
                          >
                          > Steve
                          >
                          > 405-517-7243
                          >
                          > --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                          > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
                          > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
                          >
                          > Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > S/V Post Production
                          >
                        • Steven Ellsworth
                          Dave: We re in Oklahoma. Call any reasonable time. I work for myself. Steve 405-517-7243 ... From: Dave Subject: [IslanderFreeport41]
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 14, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dave:

                            We're in Oklahoma. Call any reasonable time. I work for myself.

                            Steve

                            405-517-7243

                            --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Dave <hogryder86@...> wrote:

                            From: Dave <hogryder86@...>
                            Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Electric redo
                            To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 7:35 AM

                             

                            Steve I'd love to chat with you. I'm not sure where you are... When can I call? Dave

                            --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dave:
                            >
                            > Good plan. Our boat had some major electrical issues (Entire boat went dark on first crossing) and some of the most serious corrosion problems I have ever seen. It had a very complete bonding system which seemed to be the problem. It was the first thing I tore out. That solved the problem, however, when I too tore the genset and all the wires out to start over, I found the source of the problem; a crossed AC white wire where the genset ground met the DC ground. Needless to say, that was a very serious issue.
                            >
                            > We are headed to the boat Wednesday and can take some pictures, however, I'd like to talk with you first if you want. I've found the philosophy comes first, then it's used to make all the decisions down the road. For instance, I didn't pull all the wires and had to use butt splices. If you want all new though, that's a philosophical decision and guides the job accordingly. Another prominent philosophy is that most boats are wired using the circuit breakers as switches to turn things on and off and most electrical panels are centralized. In living with this situation, I've found some issues with it. Most importantly, if you have an engine room fire as we did (Second crossing...), it can take down all the systems IF they are all located there. I'm considering partial de centralizing and using multiple breaker panels  distributed according to location of the need and grouped by function. I am moving all the breakers needed for anything the helmsman might
                            > need to the new engine panel from the existing walk through panel. Running lights, Auto Pilot, Steaming light, Anchor light, etc. If you don't choose this method, at least group the breakers by function on the panel and then put the most used on top of the group and organize top down from most used to least used. I have some different colored breakers for important items at the top of the groups so I can yell to anyone and they can quickly know what to do. Again, think like someone who doesn't know boats (Your wife?) can't hear over the engine noise, has to figure out what you did in the dark and organize accordingly.
                            >
                            > Also helpful to split runs up into the power side and the ground sides. Before, both sets of wires, the hot and the grounds were terminated at the panel. It was a nightmare and dangerous as all get out to work on. And as you know, DC ground and AC Hot are usually black. Yellow is now the preferred color for DC grounds, but much wire is still red/black. In any event, we bought Blue Systems Buss bars and moved all the grounds out of the panel to buss bars mounted on the bulkhead beneath the steps on the port side as it's easy to get to. One bar has all DC grounds )Black but should be yellow if possible) and all the AC grounds (Green) are run to another bar located below it. Then I tied the two bars together with a big strap between them. There are a LOT of wires terminating at this point. If you want to get anal about it, label them all and wrap the label with clear packing tape.
                            >
                            > Another decision is whether to heat shrink the crimp connectors or not. I did not. I used crimp connectors by the ton and sealed the connections with that liquid electrical tape. Heat shrink is better though. Needless to say, use only Anchor marine grade wire. Color code as much as you can and use ABYC standards if possible. At the very least, I'd suggest using a different shield color for AC and DC and never group them together.
                            >
                            > Next up is chafe protection. First time I cable tied all the wires, but found that I was continually re wiring and cutting them. Now I have those plastic loops every 18" or so so I can pull in and out easily. Works great. Again, think about the runs and group wires accordingly and make it easy on yourself or the next guy to re do it (Underway in the dark....)
                            >
                            > Also, think about grouping the wire runs by function and having multiple side by side runs instead of one massive run. All the cabin lights in one set of looped bundles; the running lights in another, etc. Write all this out and think like your wife is going to have to run this without asking you and you'll get the idea of why the inspector liked our wiring. It wasn't because it was the best installation; that was adequate, however it was the most organized.
                            >
                            > If you want to chat personally, feel free to call.
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            >
                            > Steve
                            >
                            > 405-517-7243
                            >
                            > --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Dave <dmsilver@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Dave <dmsilver@...>
                            > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Electric redo
                            > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 7:34 PM
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                            > Hi Steve. I was wondering if you would be willing to share some photos of your wiring. I decided to pull everything out and start from scratch both AC and DC in light of what I found while pulling out the DC. The previous owner was no electrician and he did some pretty scary things. I sailed her from Tampa to Annapolis when I bought her and I think I was lucky not to burn to the waterline during the trip.
                            >
                            > Did you replace the panel too? I decided to install a Blue Sea distribution Panel 8095 so I've got plenty of room. If the panel had been 1/8 inch wider it wouldn't have fit! I'm about to start wiring it. I've got some DC that has to cross AC to get to it and I'm not sure how I want to do it and could use inspiration. I'd like my insurance guy to have the same feeling about the job as yours did. I hope all is great with you. Come on summer.
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                            > Dave
                            >
                            > S/V Post Production
                            >

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