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Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts

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  • BRAD DESTACHE
    If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts? ... Can t determine for sure, but clearly not vertical. There is some pretty severe rake towards
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 3, 2008
      If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts?








      --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth
      <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:
      >
      > Attached is the best side shot of Destiny I have for mast rake.
      Can't determine for sure, but clearly not vertical. There is some
      pretty severe rake towards the back..Sorry, but I'm not near the boat
      to measure for sure but thought this might help some.
      >
      > Steve
      >
      >
      > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@...>
      > > Subject: RE: [IslanderFreeport41] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
      Main & Mizzen Masts
      > > To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 3:09 PM
      > > Hi
      > >
      > > From the attached rigging spec. They say it should be
      > > Vertical.
      > >
      > > Ralph
      > > s/v Fortuitous
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > >
      > > From: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > > Steven Nall
      > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:29 AM
      > > To: islanderfreeport41@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
      > > Main &
      > > Mizzen Masts
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi All,
      > >
      > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
      > > completely
      > > finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
      > > from LeFiel
      > > (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
      > > four spars and
      > > at a Very Reasonable cost.
      > >
      > > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly
      > > known as: if
      > > you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and
      > > drop it
      > > (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be
      > > behind the lower
      > > aft edge of the mast?
      > > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of
      > > "specs" in their IF-41
      > > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
      > >
      > > Fair Winds and Thanks,
      > > Steve
      > >
      > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > >
      > > When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try
      > > Windows
      > > Mobile(r) today
      > > <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The information contained in this e-mail is intended only
      > > for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
      > > Its contents (including any attachments) may contain
      > > confidential and/or privileged information.
      > > If you are not an intended recipient you must not use,
      > > disclose, disseminate, copy or print its contents.
      > > If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the
      > > sender by reply e-mail and delete and destroy the message.
      >
    • Sidney coburn
      I could not find any in the owner hand book on the angle of the rake  But from the blue print I came up with the following information Main mast from the deck
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 3, 2008
        I could not find any in the owner hand book on the angle of the rake  But from the blue print I came up with the following information
        Main mast from the deck 45.ft
        Mizzen mast from the deck  36 ft
        Each mast has a 2.5 Deg. rake  Taken from CL of blue print
        Hope that this will be of some help to you.
        Sidney Coburn of Pacificjune

        --- On Mon, 11/3/08, BRAD DESTACHE <brad@...> wrote:
        From: BRAD DESTACHE <brad@...>
        Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts
        To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 12:21 PM

        If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts?

        --- In IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com, Steven Ellsworth
        <stevenellsworth@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Attached is the best side shot of Destiny I have for mast rake.
        Can't determine for sure, but clearly not vertical. There is some
        pretty severe rake towards the back..Sorry, but I'm not near the boat
        to measure for sure but thought this might help some.
        >
        > Steve
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > > From: Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...>
        > > Subject: RE: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
        Main & Mizzen Masts
        > > To: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 3:09 PM
        > > Hi
        > >
        > > From the attached rigging spec. They say it should be
        > > Vertical.
        > >
        > > Ralph
        > > s/v Fortuitous
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > >
        > > From: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
        > > [mailto:IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
        > > Steven Nall
        > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:29 AM
        > > To: islanderfreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
        > > Main &
        > > Mizzen Masts
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi All,
        > >
        > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
        > > completely
        > > finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
        > > from LeFiel
        > > (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
        > > four spars and
        > > at a Very Reasonable cost.
        > >
        > > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly
        > > known as: if
        > > you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and
        > > drop it
        > > (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be
        > > behind the lower
        > > aft edge of the mast?
        > > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of
        > > "specs" in their IF-41
        > > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
        > >
        > > Fair Winds and Thanks,
        > > Steve
        > >
        > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
        > >
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > >
        > > When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try
        > > Windows
        > > Mobile(r) today
        > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ 115298558/ direct/01/>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The information contained in this e-mail is intended only
        > > for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
        > > Its contents (including any attachments) may contain
        > > confidential and/or privileged information.
        > > If you are not an intended recipient you must not use,
        > > disclose, disseminate, copy or print its contents.
        > > If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the
        > > sender by reply e-mail and delete and destroy the message.
        >


      • Dick Pluta
        I m barely qualified to chime in on this because the IF41 is a ketch and I have no experience in this rig. I don t think there is a specific rake angle .
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 4, 2008
          I'm barely qualified to chime in on this because the IF41 is a ketch and I have no experience in this rig. I don't think there is a specific "rake angle".  It's a performance adjustment.  When I set up my sloop the process was as follows. 
           
          Set up the shrouds so the mast is plumb, both fore and aft and side to side, with the shroud tension firm but not stiff.  Be sure there is no "kink" from side to side at the spreaders by sighting up the sail track.  This should, in most boats, produce a bit of lee helm.  Tighten the backstay and ease the forestay until a little weather helm is induced.  This is the correct "rake angle".  Personally, I like to reef down on the backstay to prevent headstay sag.  After this check the lee shroud tension under sail.  They should be very slightly loose. 
           
          As I said, I may be completely wrong since the mizzen could trim out weather helm, but in sloops mast angle is a variable that adjusts helm.  I'm sure that, if I am wrong, that wiser heads will enlighten me.  That's a good thing.  I'm always williing to learn.
           
          Dick Pluta
          AEGEA
           
           
          On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Sidney coburn <pacificjune@...> wrote:

          I could not find any in the owner hand book on the angle of the rake  But from the blue print I came up with the following information
          Main mast from the deck 45.ft
          Mizzen mast from the deck  36 ft
          Each mast has a 2.5 Deg. rake  Taken from CL of blue print
          Hope that this will be of some help to you.
          Sidney Coburn of Pacificjune

          --- On Mon, 11/3/08, BRAD DESTACHE <brad@...> wrote:
          From: BRAD DESTACHE <brad@...>
          Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts
          To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 12:21 PM

          If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts?

          --- In IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com, Steven Ellsworth
          <stevenellsworth@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Attached is the best side shot of Destiny I have for mast rake.
          Can't determine for sure, but clearly not vertical. There is some
          pretty severe rake towards the back..Sorry, but I'm not near the boat
          to measure for sure but thought this might help some.
          >
          > Steve
          >
          >
          > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > > From: Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...>
          > > Subject: RE: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
          Main & Mizzen Masts
          > > To: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 3:09 PM
          > > Hi
          > >
          > > From the attached rigging spec. They say it should be
          > > Vertical.
          > >
          > > Ralph
          > > s/v Fortuitous
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > >
          > > From: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
          > > [mailto:IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
          > > Steven Nall
          > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:29 AM
          > > To: islanderfreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
          > > Main &
          > > Mizzen Masts
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi All,
          > >
          > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
          > > completely
          > > finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
          > > from LeFiel
          > > (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
          > > four spars and
          > > at a Very Reasonable cost.
          > >
          > > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly
          > > known as: if
          > > you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and
          > > drop it
          > > (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be
          > > behind the lower
          > > aft edge of the mast?
          > > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of
          > > "specs" in their IF-41
          > > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
          > >
          > > Fair Winds and Thanks,
          > > Steve
          > >
          > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
          > >
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > >
          > > When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try
          > > Windows
          > > Mobile(r) today
          > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ 115298558/ direct/01/>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The information contained in this e-mail is intended only
          > > for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
          > > Its contents (including any attachments) may contain
          > > confidential and/or privileged information.
          > > If you are not an intended recipient you must not use,
          > > disclose, disseminate, copy or print its contents.
          > > If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the
          > > sender by reply e-mail and delete and destroy the message.
          >



        • Steven Nall
          Brad, After an accident made the mizzen into a pretzel (hit by a large power boat), I started searching for a replacement and luckily after 3 phone calls found
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 8, 2008
            Brad,
            After an accident made the mizzen into a pretzel (hit by a large power boat), I started searching for a replacement and luckily after 3 phone calls found LeFiell in Santa Fe Springs (about 10 mi north of Disneyland).  I took Rodney the old, bent mizzen, saw his operation and spars he was making, got a price for the boom that was so amazingly reasonable, and decided I needed an estimate for the other 3 spars.  Again I was amazed at the low cost, and so I couldn't resist.  A distinct advantage going directly to the original manufacturer!
            I had estimates from riggers as much as 5 or more times higher than LeFiell's firm number of 900 for a new mizzen boom!
            The masts and main boom were completely stripped, including the mast heads.  All other hardware was removed, all holes welded shut, new mast heads installed, everything sanded, primed, painted (Sterling LP).  New tangs for the shrouds, conduit for electrical, inside halyard fittings, new gooseneck fittngs on booms and masts, new sheeves, new mast steps and 16x16 plate for the main ... the list goes on and on.  The only parts that are original are the 3 extrusions and they look like brand new (inside and out).
            Basically I have 'just like new' spars with all 2008 hardware.  And the final number was $6600. which included the tax, pickup and delivery.  They also installed the new winches, antenna, lighting fixtures, etc. that I provided.
            The neighbors and others use words like... Wow!  Amazing!  Fantastic!  Everything looks brand new!
            I love to talk about this project so don't hesitate to call if you have questions.
            Steve
            S/v Cadre
            San Diego Bay
            619-425-0710


            To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
            From: brad@...
            Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:21:41 +0000
            Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts


            If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts?

            --- In IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com, Steven Ellsworth
            <stevenellsworth@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Attached is the best side shot of Destiny I have for mast rake.
            Can't determine for sure, but clearly not vertical. There is some
            pretty severe rake towards the back..Sorry, but I'm not near the boat
            to measure for sure but thought this might help some.
            >
            > Steve
            >
            >
            > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > > From: Kallberg, Ralph T <ralph.kallberg@ ...>
            > > Subject: RE: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
            Main & Mizzen Masts
            > > To: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 3:09 PM
            > > Hi
            > >
            > > From the attached rigging spec. They say it should be
            > > Vertical.
            > >
            > > Ralph
            > > s/v Fortuitous
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > >
            > > From: IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
            > > [mailto:IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
            > > Steven Nall
            > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:29 AM
            > > To: islanderfreeport41@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41 ] Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
            > > Main &
            > > Mizzen Masts
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi All,
            > >
            > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
            > > completely
            > > finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
            > > from LeFiel
            > > (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
            > > four spars and
            > > at a Very Reasonable cost.
            > >
            > > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly
            > > known as: if
            > > you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and
            > > drop it
            > > (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be
            > > behind the lower
            > > aft edge of the mast?
            > > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of
            > > "specs" in their IF-41
            > > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
            > >
            > > Fair Winds and Thanks,
            > > Steve
            > >
            > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > >
            > > When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try
            > > Windows
            > > Mobile(r) today
            > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ 115298558/ direct/01/>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The information contained in this e-mail is intended only
            > > for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed.
            > > Its contents (including any attachments) may contain
            > > confidential and/or privileged information.
            > > If you are not an intended recipient you must not use,
            > > disclose, disseminate, copy or print its contents.
            > > If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the
            > > sender by reply e-mail and delete and destroy the message.
            >




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          • Michael Bereznai
            Hi, Steve, I have placed a photo album called ~MAST RAKE in photos of the docs I have from the 1977 owners manual for ECHO. The first picture is the tuning
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 9, 2008
              Hi, Steve,
              I have placed a photo album called ~MAST RAKE in photos of the docs I
              have from the 1977 owners manual for ECHO. The first picture is the
              tuning verbiage and the second is the sail plan. I read the tuning
              doc and it is almost word for word from a sailing book I read on mast
              tuning. This was for single masts. Some of the IF41's came with
              single masts and some with a tall single mast. The sail plan shows a
              definite rake with a little more in the mizzen. Today I went on a
              run to see what the other IF41's have around Alameda. Excalibur is
              raked back about the same as the sail plan with the mizzen a little
              more than the main. Rayelle's masts are almost straight with a little
              rake. Falco's masts are straight. ECHO's were raked even more than
              the drawing but I now know why. One of the members of our YC used to
              tune rigging for a living and came over to see ECHO. He said she was
              tunned for running not racing. He would tune cruising boats with a
              rake so the masts would be straight under load while running. He
              tuned racers (or bay sailors) with a straight mast so they could be
              adjusted during a race. I also looked at a number of other ketches
              and most of them were raked back a little.
              What I have found out about ECHO's tuning may be of interest. She was
              rerigged about three years ago except for the forestay. When I tried
              to roll in the jib it was excessivly hard, I needed to use the small
              winch. The forestay was so loose the furler bowed and made it hard
              to roll. I attempted to tighten the forestay but found the Profurl
              furler was too long and I could not take up enough on the stay. The
              furler was determining the rake on the mast. I contacted Profurl to
              see what could be done. Their answer was to remove the furler and
              cut a section out of the foil. I asked if there was another option.
              Since I had the extension bars between the roller drum and the
              bowsprit I could shorten the extension bars. This would lower the
              whole furler. My sail has a 4 inch pennant at the head so bringing
              down the furler was not going to be a problem. I supported the drum
              across the pulpit and removed the extension bars. I had two new holes
              drilled two inches above the factory holes and the rest cut. This
              allowed me to tension the forestay and also reduce the rake back to
              almost straight. My furler can also be wound with one hand now.
              Whether this is a problem on all IF41's with a Profurl furler I do
              not know. I think Excalibur has a Profurl, Rayelle has a different
              brand, Falco has a hanked on jib.
              So in conclusion I plan on seting less rake than the sailplan but not
              straight. Right now I am sailing up and downwind. I am not an expert
              by any means. Echo Is my first ketch ans I have only had her five
              months. It has been a steep and somtimes confusing learning curve for
              me.
              Michael Bereznai
              SV ECHO
              Ballena Isle Marina
              --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Nall <sfnall@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
              completely finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
              from LeFiel (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
              four spars and at a Very Reasonable cost.
              >
              > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly known as:
              if you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and drop it
              (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be behind the
              lower aft edge of the mast?
              > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of "specs" in their IF-41
              library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
              >
              > Fair Winds and Thanks,
              > Steve
              >
              > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > When your life is on the go—take your life with you.
              > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
              >
            • Steven Ellsworth
              MIchael: Thanks for the subjective review of mast rake. Excellent job! I m thinking about sails next and like the staysail/mizzen combo when the weather gets
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 10, 2008
                MIchael:

                Thanks for the subjective review of mast rake. Excellent job! I'm thinking about sails next and like the staysail/mizzen combo when the weather gets rough. I have the staysail on a ProFurl (Run to just below the masthead not the shorter tang) and the Mizzen has two reef points in it so I can get it pretty small. Next I am going to see if I can find a used staysail that is short enough on the foot to sheet inboard and possibly make self tacking. May have to shorten my inner stay and cut the ProFurl down as you did to get better saill shape. We have a few more years before we take the boat out again so have time to tinker.

                Best of luck to you and thanks for the info.

                Steve

                SV Destiny Oklahoma
                (Winterized for now....)

                --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Michael Bereznai <echo.sailor@...> wrote:
                From: Michael Bereznai <echo.sailor@...>
                Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts
                To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:03 PM

                Hi, Steve,
                I have placed a photo album called ~MAST RAKE in photos of the docs I
                have from the 1977 owners manual for ECHO. The first picture is the
                tuning verbiage and the second is the sail plan. I read the tuning
                doc and it is almost word for word from a sailing book I read on mast
                tuning. This was for single masts. Some of the IF41's came with
                single masts and some with a tall single mast. The sail plan shows a
                definite rake with a little more in the mizzen. Today I went on a
                run to see what the other IF41's have around Alameda. Excalibur is
                raked back about the same as the sail plan with the mizzen a little
                more than the main. Rayelle's masts are almost straight with a little
                rake. Falco's masts are straight. ECHO's were raked even more than
                the drawing but I now know why. One of the members of our YC used to
                tune rigging for a living and came over to see ECHO. He said she was
                tunned for running not racing. He would tune cruising boats with a
                rake so the masts would be straight under load while running. He
                tuned racers (or bay sailors) with a straight mast so they could be
                adjusted during a race. I also looked at a number of other ketches
                and most of them were raked back a little.
                What I have found out about ECHO's tuning may be of interest. She was
                rerigged about three years ago except for the forestay. When I tried
                to roll in the jib it was excessivly hard, I needed to use the small
                winch. The forestay was so loose the furler bowed and made it hard
                to roll. I attempted to tighten the forestay but found the Profurl
                furler was too long and I could not take up enough on the stay. The
                furler was determining the rake on the mast. I contacted Profurl to
                see what could be done. Their answer was to remove the furler and
                cut a section out of the foil. I asked if there was another option.
                Since I had the extension bars between the roller drum and the
                bowsprit I could shorten the extension bars. This would lower the
                whole furler. My sail has a 4 inch pennant at the head so bringing
                down the furler was not going to be a problem. I supported the drum
                across the pulpit and removed the extension bars. I had two new holes
                drilled two inches above the factory holes and the rest cut. This
                allowed me to tension the forestay and also reduce the rake back to
                almost straight. My furler can also be wound with one hand now.
                Whether this is a problem on all IF41's with a Profurl furler I do
                not know. I think Excalibur has a Profurl, Rayelle has a different
                brand, Falco has a hanked on jib.
                So in conclusion I plan on seting less rake than the sailplan but not
                straight. Right now I am sailing up and downwind. I am not an expert
                by any means. Echo Is my first ketch ans I have only had her five
                months. It has been a steep and somtimes confusing learning curve for
                me.
                Michael Bereznai
                SV ECHO
                Ballena Isle Marina
                --- In IslanderFreeport41@ yahoogroups. com, Steven Nall <sfnall@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi All,
                >
                > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
                completely finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
                from LeFiel (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on all
                four spars and at a Very Reasonable cost.
                >
                > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly known as:
                if you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and drop it
                (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be behind the
                lower aft edge of the mast?
                > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of "specs" in their IF-41
                library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
                >
                > Fair Winds and Thanks,
                > Steve
                >
                > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > When your life is on the go—take your life with you.
                > http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ 115298558/ direct/01/
                >

              • BRAD DESTACHE
                Thank you, That is fantastic, and something I will take advantage of in the future. You may know we are one of the other IF41 s in San Diego. Doing major
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 10, 2008
                  Thank you,

                  That is fantastic, and something I will take advantage of in the
                  future. You may know we are one of the other IF41's in San Diego.
                  Doing major refitting right now.

                  Brad



                  >
                  >
                  > Brad,
                  > After an accident made the mizzen into a pretzel (hit by a large
                  power boat), I started searching for a replacement and luckily after
                  3 phone calls found LeFiell in Santa Fe Springs (about 10 mi north of
                  Disneyland). I took Rodney the old, bent mizzen, saw his operation
                  and spars he was making, got a price for the boom that was so
                  amazingly reasonable, and decided I needed an estimate for the other
                  3 spars. Again I was amazed at the low cost, and so I couldn't
                  resist. A distinct advantage going directly to the original
                  manufacturer!
                  > I had estimates from riggers as much as 5 or more times higher than
                  LeFiell's firm number of 900 for a new mizzen boom!
                  > The masts and main boom were completely stripped, including the
                  mast heads. All other hardware was removed, all holes welded shut,
                  new mast heads installed, everything sanded, primed, painted
                  (Sterling LP). New tangs for the shrouds, conduit for electrical,
                  inside halyard fittings, new gooseneck fittngs on booms and masts,
                  new sheeves, new mast steps and 16x16 plate for the main ... the list
                  goes on and on. The only parts that are original are the 3
                  extrusions and they look like brand new (inside and out).
                  > Basically I have 'just like new' spars with all 2008 hardware. And
                  the final number was $6600. which included the tax, pickup and
                  delivery. They also installed the new winches, antenna, lighting
                  fixtures, etc. that I provided.
                  > The neighbors and others use words like... Wow! Amazing!
                  Fantastic! Everything looks brand new!
                  > I love to talk about this project so don't hesitate to call if you
                  have questions.
                  > Steve
                  > S/v Cadre
                  > San Diego Bay
                  > 619-425-0710
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: IslanderFreeport41@...: brad@...: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:21:41
                  +0000Subject: [IslanderFreeport41] Re: Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the
                  Main & Mizzen Masts
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If I could ask, what did you have la felle do to your masts?--- In
                  IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Ellsworth
                  <stevenellsworth@> wrote:>> Attached is the best side shot of Destiny
                  I have for mast rake. Can't determine for sure, but clearly not
                  vertical. There is some pretty severe rake towards the back..Sorry,
                  but I'm not near the boat to measure for sure but thought this might
                  help some.> > Steve> > > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kallberg, Ralph T
                  <ralph.kallberg@> wrote:> > > From: Kallberg, Ralph T
                  <ralph.kallberg@>> > Subject: RE: [IslanderFreeport41] Rake, Set,
                  Angle, etc. of the Main & Mizzen Masts> > To:
                  IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008,
                  3:09 PM> > Hi > > > > From the attached rigging spec. They say it
                  should be> > Vertical.> > > > Ralph> > s/v Fortuitous> > > >
                  ________________________________> > > > From:
                  IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com> >
                  [mailto:IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of> > Steven
                  Nall> > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:29 AM> > To:
                  islanderfreeport41@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [IslanderFreeport41]
                  Rake, Set, Angle, etc. of the> > Main &> > Mizzen Masts> > > > > > >
                  > Hi All,> > > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we
                  hope to> > completely> > finish the project by end of the week.
                  Rodney and Julio> > from LeFiel> > (pronounced la fell) did an
                  absolutely Superb job on all> > four spars and> > at a Very
                  Reasonable cost.> > > > One issue is the rake of the two masts...
                  more commonly> > known as: if> > you take a plumb bob to the top aft
                  edge of the mast and> > drop it> > (gently) to the deck... how many
                  inches... will it be> > behind the lower> > aft edge of the mast?> >
                  Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of> > "specs" in their IF-41>
                  > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.> > > > Fair Winds and
                  Thanks,> > Steve> > > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South
                  San Diego Bay)> > > > > > ________________________________> > > >
                  When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try> > Windows>
                  > Mobile(r) today> >
                  <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/> > > > > > > > > >
                  > The information contained in this e-mail is intended only> > for
                  the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. > > Its contents
                  (including any attachments) may contain> > confidential and/or
                  privileged information. > > If you are not an intended recipient you
                  must not use,> > disclose, disseminate, copy or print its contents. >
                  > If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the> > sender by
                  reply e-mail and delete and destroy the message.>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail.
                  > http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?
                  ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_112008
                  >
                • Michael Bereznai
                  Hi all, More on mast rake: I did some research today and came up with two good articles on mast rake. The first describes why to rake a mast in regards to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 11, 2008
                    Hi all,
                    More on mast rake:
                    I did some research today and came up with two good articles on mast
                    rake. The first describes why to rake a mast in regards to center of
                    effort. The second is linked at the end of this post as it is sort of
                    long and I don't grasp the theory. It looks to me that the rake
                    helps determine the center of effort of the boat. The placing of the
                    masts are done by the boat designer, placed by many considerations
                    and restrictions. When I look at the sail plan I see that this
                    design assumes a staysail. This means more sail area forward. With
                    the mast positions determined by design then the rake would be
                    determined by the center of effort. The linked article is from and
                    old naval architect. He explains how a raked mast presents the sails
                    to the wind.
                    so I guess the amount of rake on our boats is something we need to
                    determine individually by how much sail we have, etc.
                    from sailnet:
                    Raking the mast moves the center of effort of the sail or center of
                    balance of the boat aft. This tends to push the boat into the wind,
                    like a weathervane. Having a little of this helps pointing, because
                    it tends to make the boat point up more. A little "windward helm", as
                    this is called, is also a safety feature because it turns the boat
                    into the wind (and waves) "automatically" in puffs so the boat is
                    less likely to take on water or capsize. Having too much rake or
                    windward helm makes the boat tend up so much that the helmsman has to
                    have the tiller or rudder ''way off center to keep the boat headed
                    off enough to keep the sails full. This is REALLY SLOW, because the
                    rudder, angled way off the centerline, acts like a big brake. If the
                    mast isn't raked enough, the sail tends to turn the boat to leeward.
                    This is perhaps faster, but does not help pointing. It is also
                    dangerous, because a puff will make the boat head off, exposing more
                    flattened sail area to the increasing wind, and can lead to capsizing
                    and sinking. Some boats seem to work better with more weather helm
                    than others. Some have almost neutral helms.
                    Historically, strongly raked masts in the 1800''s, for example, were
                    also connected with improved windward ability.
                    (I don't know that this applies to ketches that well as we have a
                    mizzen to allow better trim of the sails and adjust for weather helm.)
                    see this also
                    http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Rigging/Henwood(1826).html

                    In conclusion It appears the old salt I talked to had the wrong
                    reason for tunning cruisers aft.
                    Mike Bereznai
                    ECHO
                    --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bereznai"
                    <echo.sailor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Steve,
                    > I have placed a photo album called ~MAST RAKE in photos of the docs
                    I
                    > have from the 1977 owners manual for ECHO. The first picture is the
                    > tuning verbiage and the second is the sail plan. I read the tuning
                    > doc and it is almost word for word from a sailing book I read on
                    mast
                    > tuning. This was for single masts. Some of the IF41's came with
                    > single masts and some with a tall single mast. The sail plan shows
                    a
                    > definite rake with a little more in the mizzen. Today I went on a
                    > run to see what the other IF41's have around Alameda. Excalibur is
                    > raked back about the same as the sail plan with the mizzen a little
                    > more than the main. Rayelle's masts are almost straight with a
                    little
                    > rake. Falco's masts are straight. ECHO's were raked even more than
                    > the drawing but I now know why. One of the members of our YC used
                    to
                    > tune rigging for a living and came over to see ECHO. He said she
                    was
                    > tunned for running not racing. He would tune cruising boats with a
                    > rake so the masts would be straight under load while running. He
                    > tuned racers (or bay sailors) with a straight mast so they could be
                    > adjusted during a race. I also looked at a number of other ketches
                    > and most of them were raked back a little.
                    > What I have found out about ECHO's tuning may be of interest. She
                    was
                    > rerigged about three years ago except for the forestay. When I
                    tried
                    > to roll in the jib it was excessivly hard, I needed to use the
                    small
                    > winch. The forestay was so loose the furler bowed and made it hard
                    > to roll. I attempted to tighten the forestay but found the Profurl
                    > furler was too long and I could not take up enough on the stay. The
                    > furler was determining the rake on the mast. I contacted Profurl to
                    > see what could be done. Their answer was to remove the furler and
                    > cut a section out of the foil. I asked if there was another
                    option.
                    > Since I had the extension bars between the roller drum and the
                    > bowsprit I could shorten the extension bars. This would lower the
                    > whole furler. My sail has a 4 inch pennant at the head so bringing
                    > down the furler was not going to be a problem. I supported the
                    drum
                    > across the pulpit and removed the extension bars. I had two new
                    holes
                    > drilled two inches above the factory holes and the rest cut. This
                    > allowed me to tension the forestay and also reduce the rake back to
                    > almost straight. My furler can also be wound with one hand now.
                    > Whether this is a problem on all IF41's with a Profurl furler I do
                    > not know. I think Excalibur has a Profurl, Rayelle has a different
                    > brand, Falco has a hanked on jib.
                    > So in conclusion I plan on seting less rake than the sailplan but
                    not
                    > straight. Right now I am sailing up and downwind. I am not an
                    expert
                    > by any means. Echo Is my first ketch ans I have only had her five
                    > months. It has been a steep and somtimes confusing learning curve
                    for
                    > me.
                    > Michael Bereznai
                    > SV ECHO
                    > Ballena Isle Marina
                    > --- In IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com, Steven Nall <sfnall@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi All,
                    > >
                    > > Well the masts are finally back on the boat, and we hope to
                    > completely finish the project by end of the week. Rodney and Julio
                    > from LeFiel (pronounced la fell) did an absolutely Superb job on
                    all
                    > four spars and at a Very Reasonable cost.
                    > >
                    > > One issue is the rake of the two masts... more commonly known
                    as:
                    > if you take a plumb bob to the top aft edge of the mast and drop it
                    > (gently) to the deck... how many inches... will it be behind the
                    > lower aft edge of the mast?
                    > > Hopeful someone has some of those kinds of "specs" in their IF-41
                    > library! Email or call me @ 619-988-7924.
                    > >
                    > > Fair Winds and Thanks,
                    > > Steve
                    > >
                    > > Steve Nall on Cadre, Chula Vista, CA (South San Diego Bay)
                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                    > > When your life is on the go—take your life with you.
                    > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
                    > >
                    >
                  • Steven Ellsworth
                    Dick and the group: I went to the boat yesterday and had a problem with my starter so I was forced to re check all the wiring. Please see the attached diagram
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                      Dick and the group:

                      I went to the boat yesterday and had a problem with my starter so I was forced to re check all the wiring. Please see the attached diagram for Destiny's wiring. Here's what I am not sure of:

                      1. The Nissan manual says that the strap from the solenoid closest to the engine block to the main starer motor is a ground or negative terminal. If so, how does the positive current get to the starter armature?

                      2. The positive feed from the external solenoid goes to the center terminal of the starter solenoid. All is fine with this. The manual says this is all you need for the starter wiring.

                      3. Destiny has a big positive lead from the engine start battery to the starter solenoid third terminal, the one on the solenoid closest to you away from the engine block. This would seem to be un necessary but maybe it carries the large starter load and the center terminal carries the solenoid load. Just 'cause it's there doesn't make it right I have learned from past experience with this 30 (now 34) year old boat......

                      I am attaching a picture of the best deal I have found on Nissan starters as well as an updated wiring diagram from our boat.

                      Good luck to Dick and may he fire right up in the Bahamas!

                      Thanks for your comments,

                      Capt. Steve

                      SV Destiny Oklahoma

                      ,_._,___
                    • Dick Pluta
                      Steve, That s why I was confused about the external solenoid. If you look at the cross section of the starter in the manual it shows a heavy duty contact in
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                        Steve,

                        That's why I was confused about the external solenoid.  If you look at the cross section of the starter in the manual it shows a heavy duty contact in the solenoid that engages the starter drive.  The main battery feed connects to the solenoid on the starter.  From there it goes through the normally open contact in the starter solenoid to the starter motor.  When you send power from the starter switch through the external relay the starter mounted solenoid engages the starter drive AND closes the internal contact, sending power from the battery to the starter motor.  That would seem to make the external relay redundant.  Anyway, whatever it does I'll fix it.  Even if it's not what I would do, it was done for a reason and I'm not going to change it.  It worked for 30 years and 30 more is just fine with me.

                        Dick

                        On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:

                        Dick and the group:
                         

                        I went to the boat yesterday and had a problem with my starter so I was forced to re check all the wiring. Please see the attached diagram for Destiny's wiring. Here's what I am not sure of:

                        1. The Nissan manual says that the strap from the solenoid closest to the engine block to the main starer motor is a ground or negative terminal. If so, how does the positive current get to the starter armature?

                        2. The positive feed from the external solenoid goes to the center terminal of the starter solenoid. All is fine with this. The manual says this is all you need for the starter wiring.

                        3. Destiny has a big positive lead from the engine start battery to the starter solenoid third terminal, the one on the solenoid closest to you away from the engine block. This would seem to be un necessary but maybe it carries the large starter load and the center terminal carries the solenoid load. Just 'cause it's there doesn't make it right I have learned from past experience with this 30 (now 34) year old boat......

                        I am attaching a picture of the best deal I have found on Nissan starters as well as an updated wiring diagram from our boat.

                        Good luck to Dick and may he fire right up in the Bahamas!

                        Thanks for your comments,

                        Capt. Steve

                        SV Destiny Oklahoma

                        ,_._,___

                      • Steven Ellsworth
                        Dick I think I have the answer. It relates to the amperage draw for the starter solenoid and the wiring to run it. I don t know what it is, but I would guess
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                          Dick

                          I think I have the answer. It relates to the amperage draw for the starter solenoid and the wiring to run it. I don't know what it is, but I would guess it is a lot higher than the smaller solenoid  (External). I have about 12 ga wire running to the external from the engine panel and I have 4 GA running about 3' from the external solenoid to the starter solenoid. IF the wiring to the integrated solenoid could carry enough amps to activate it,  then you wouldn't need the external one. The large wire I have connected direct from the battery to the outside terminal on the starter solenoid (The one without the strap) provides most or all of the amps necessary to run the starter motor once the integrated solenoid is activated.

                          So, While we could probably rig something up to make this simpler, you're right, it's worked for 30 years so I'll leave it alone for another 30.

                          Good luck with your project.

                          Steve

                          --- On Sun, 1/4/09, Dick Pluta <dick8139@...> wrote:
                          From: Dick Pluta <dick8139@...>
                          Subject: Re: [IslanderFreeport41] RE: Starter Wiring
                          To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 3:02 PM

                          Steve,

                          That's why I was confused about the external solenoid.  If you look at the cross section of the starter in the manual it shows a heavy duty contact in the solenoid that engages the starter drive.  The main battery feed connects to the solenoid on the starter.  From there it goes through the normally open contact in the starter solenoid to the starter motor.  When you send power from the starter switch through the external relay the starter mounted solenoid engages the starter drive AND closes the internal contact, sending power from the battery to the starter motor.  That would seem to make the external relay redundant.  Anyway, whatever it does I'll fix it.  Even if it's not what I would do, it was done for a reason and I'm not going to change it.  It worked for 30 years and 30 more is just fine with me.

                          Dick

                          On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                          Dick and the group:
                           

                          I went to the boat yesterday and had a problem with my starter so I was forced to re check all the wiring. Please see the attached diagram for Destiny's wiring. Here's what I am not sure of:

                          1. The Nissan manual says that the strap from the solenoid closest to the engine block to the main starer motor is a ground or negative terminal. If so, how does the positive current get to the starter armature?

                          2. The positive feed from the external solenoid goes to the center terminal of the starter solenoid. All is fine with this. The manual says this is all you need for the starter wiring.

                          3. Destiny has a big positive lead from the engine start battery to the starter solenoid third terminal, the one on the solenoid closest to you away from the engine block. This would seem to be un necessary but maybe it carries the large starter load and the center terminal carries the solenoid load. Just 'cause it's there doesn't make it right I have learned from past experience with this 30 (now 34) year old boat......

                          I am attaching a picture of the best deal I have found on Nissan starters as well as an updated wiring diagram from our boat.

                          Good luck to Dick and may he fire right up in the Bahamas!

                          Thanks for your comments,

                          Capt. Steve

                          SV Destiny Oklahoma

                          ,_._,___

                        • Dick Pluta
                          That s what I kinda figured. I ll know better in about 48 hours when I cast the Mark I eyeball on the system. Dick On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Steven
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 5, 2009
                            That's what I kinda figured.  I'll know better in about 48 hours when I cast the Mark I eyeball on the system.

                            Dick

                            On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@...> wrote:

                            Dick

                            I think I have the answer. It relates to the amperage draw for the starter solenoid and the wiring to run it. I don't know what it is, but I would guess it is a lot higher than the smaller solenoid  (External). I have about 12 ga wire running to the external from the engine panel and I have 4 GA running about 3' from the external solenoid to the starter solenoid. IF the wiring to the integrated solenoid could carry enough amps to activate it,  then you wouldn't need the external one. The large wire I have connected direct from the battery to the outside terminal on the starter solenoid (The one without the strap) provides most or all of the amps necessary to run the starter motor once the integrated solenoid is activated.

                            So, While we could probably rig something up to make this simpler, you're right, it's worked for 30 years so I'll leave it alone for another 30.

                            Good luck with your project.

                            Steve

                            --- On Sun, 1/4/09, Dick Pluta <dick8139@...> wrote:
                            From: Dick Pluta <dick8139@...>
                            Subject: Re: [IslanderFreeport41] RE: Starter Wiring
                            To: IslanderFreeport41@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 3:02 PM


                            Steve,

                            That's why I was confused about the external solenoid.  If you look at the cross section of the starter in the manual it shows a heavy duty contact in the solenoid that engages the starter drive.  The main battery feed connects to the solenoid on the starter.  From there it goes through the normally open contact in the starter solenoid to the starter motor.  When you send power from the starter switch through the external relay the starter mounted solenoid engages the starter drive AND closes the internal contact, sending power from the battery to the starter motor.  That would seem to make the external relay redundant.  Anyway, whatever it does I'll fix it.  Even if it's not what I would do, it was done for a reason and I'm not going to change it.  It worked for 30 years and 30 more is just fine with me.

                            Dick

                            On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Steven Ellsworth <stevenellsworth@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                            Dick and the group:
                             

                            I went to the boat yesterday and had a problem with my starter so I was forced to re check all the wiring. Please see the attached diagram for Destiny's wiring. Here's what I am not sure of:

                            1. The Nissan manual says that the strap from the solenoid closest to the engine block to the main starer motor is a ground or negative terminal. If so, how does the positive current get to the starter armature?

                            2. The positive feed from the external solenoid goes to the center terminal of the starter solenoid. All is fine with this. The manual says this is all you need for the starter wiring.

                            3. Destiny has a big positive lead from the engine start battery to the starter solenoid third terminal, the one on the solenoid closest to you away from the engine block. This would seem to be un necessary but maybe it carries the large starter load and the center terminal carries the solenoid load. Just 'cause it's there doesn't make it right I have learned from past experience with this 30 (now 34) year old boat......

                            I am attaching a picture of the best deal I have found on Nissan starters as well as an updated wiring diagram from our boat.

                            Good luck to Dick and may he fire right up in the Bahamas!

                            Thanks for your comments,

                            Capt. Steve

                            SV Destiny Oklahoma

                            ,_._,___


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