I simply point folks in the direction of the experts.
John Grenham is right there in Dublin, and has long been recogized as creating
great research finding aids (in both printed and electronic format) - see
However, I did not extract every record set that he gives for every
denomination for the civil parish of Templeport for every archival location
noted on the Grenham's Irish Surnames Cd. I just gave examples and I phrased
that extraction poorly.
What I should have simply said was that the CD allows an individual to search
on a surname (which produces a set of spelling variations also), retrieve the
number of households by county and then by civil parish as enumerated during
Griffith's evaluation, and then drill down through the surviving records by
However, if I made the same mistake in a teleconference or a talk on the
subject, I would expect to hear the correction. So that's not a problem.
That's one of the great things about a live Q&A format! In fact, once I test
drive the Voice over IP possibilities with our teleconference capabilities in
the US, I'll be inviting more folks from outside the US to join us.
There are lots of people who really do feel like they are doomed to dead ends
in their Irish research with the misconception that too many records are lost.
In reality, the biggest problem for folks outside of Ireland with Irish
ancestors is finding the clues to get them back to a townland, or even a
county. Then the First Ordnance Survey maps really can become a family
treasure and a research tool. The understanding of the variations in civil and
church parish record jurisdictions then become even more useful and less of a
needle in a haystack search.
So the talks/teleconferences that I personally lead revolve around 5
Have you re-checked all of your home sources, assumptions and checklists?
Have you ever attended a conference, joined a genealogical or historical
society for both expert advice and the serendipity of meeting others or
finding resources first hand?
Do you know what kinds of resources are available through your local Family
Never heard an Irish research expert speak?
What do you know about Irish geography references?
That's a whole different ballgame from the "how to" teleconference sessions
TIARA is hosting this winter and any Ireland based "hands on" research trips
like TIARA's spring foray.
But everybody has to start somewhere and progress into the expertise needed
for their own research.
And sometimes that really requires baby steps to simply get oriented.
I personally have not found enough records to get me from my Mahar/Maher
ancestors in 19th century Maine - back to New Brunswick, and then back into
the Ireland origins, so I live vicariously through all the folks who have
connected more of the ancestral dots. Every success, gives me ideas about
uncovering more clues from the US and Canadian records.
Happy New Year to all!
------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:17:46 PM EST
From: "Dr. Jane Lyons" <sniliaghin@...
Subject: The importance of the older maps & ...........Re: Correction and
addition: Re: [Irish_Townland_Maps] Tracking down townlands and parishes
Thank you Sharon for your reply.
I realise that I did take off a bit, but your post took me by surprise. You
stated facts as per the cd, but the impression given was that there were no
other records in existence for Templeport Church of Ireland records........
you mentioned 1856-57 and then said that there had originally been records
for 1796-1877 and then you said that the originals had burned during the
civil war of 1922.
The Representative Church Body Library in Dublin holds records for the
Church of Ireland parish of Templeport for the following:
Marriages 1845-1954. Baptisms 1878-1906.
I don't know if the LDS library has a copy of these on microfil or not.
You also mentioned Roman Catholic Records and gave a year of 1877-80 Records
held by the NAtional Library of Ireland here in Dublin.
The NLI holds records for the Roman Catholic Parish of Templeport as
Marriages. 1836-1870 with a break and then later in 1870-1880
Baptisms : Nov 1836-July 1870; Sept 1870-Dec 1880
Burials : Feb 1827-Dec 1845; July 1870 - Dec 1880
These differ from the dates you quoted in your post to this list.
The Roman Catholic parish of Templeport and the Civil Parish of Templeport
do not necessarily include the same townlands.
You mentioned the Drumreilly records in relation to Templeport parish,
without indicating the religious affiliation for the records you mentioned -
the Drumreilly records are Church of Ireland records.
I should have mentioned all of the above the night I wrote re Corrections.
I apologise for allowing myself to respond to your post as soon as I read
it. I would most likely have said much the same the next day, I would
probably not have gone on about the Tiara connection as much though.
The use of the old Ordnance Survey maps - I see these as being one of the
most important 'additions' to whatever list there is of Irish Genealogical
Research Aids - and I see this importance more because of the way placenames
are spelled on those maps at that time.
The later maps may show different placenames in the same area - the church
records may use the later placenames.
I see the importance also in the location of churches and graveyards as per
the early maps. We only have two other real records for Churches.......in
various parishes. The first comes from the Topographical Dictionary of
Samuel Lewis, published in 1837. Lewis tells us the names of the Roman
Catholic parishes associated with each civil parish - he also tells us where
the churches for each parish are located.
This in iteself is of extreme importance because the Catholic parish name
for any Civil parish is usually different from that civil parish or/and
takes in a number of civil parishes. It may carry the name of one civil
parish, but actually includes a number of civil parishes. So, whenany
person looks at a listing of extant Roman Catholic parish records for the
county that they are interested in, then they may not realise that records
for a parish of a different name might carry the records for the place and
family that they are interested in. That is to say, in the Catholic system,
a number of civil parishes might all be part of one Catholic parish.
To me, when I look at old maps - they show me other spellings of
placenames..............they still show me where the churches and graveyards
are............and if I can't find someone in one set of records, I can give
a guess as to others from other churches close by - other 'parish' records.
One of the things that few realise about parishes - be they civil or
religious...........the civil usually equates to the Church of Ireland
name - the thing is that at different times the Bishop of a Diocese looked
at his records and decided that this parish was richer than that (maybe -
I'm just guessing at the reasoning) - or, there were more people in this
parish than that one which lay right next door - and so he *re-located*
He'd move townlands from one parish to the next - amybe it wasn't just him,
the Church of Ireland had Councils for this, I assume the Roman Catholics
did too - but the letter to the Priest/Vicar of the parish telling him what
was happening - that came directly from the Bishop.
The result is, that in cases like this, the records for one family lie in
one set of parish records for a certain period of time, and then, others for
that same family might be in the records of another parish.
The old maps - they tell me so much. I could never put it in words
The other thing is - that they'd be nice for people to have on their walls
;-) or in their Family History Folders
You are going to host a 'teleconference' advising people regarding their
Irish Genealogical Research. That, in effect, makes you 'an expert' in the
eyes of those who will speak to you and take your advise. It doesn't
actually matter to me whether you represent TIARA or not......
You are, you will be an expert in the eyes of those who telephone you.
If anyone should ask you about Templeport in Cavan - then please, give them
the listings I have given you hererather than what you gave to this group.
There are a number of fallacies or 'Urban Legends' that are spread re Irish
The first of these is that *ALL* our records were destroyed in the Civil
War - the fire in the Four Courts in 1922.............
You fed that...............or, at least, the way you worded your post to
this list - and that was made me respond. Even more than the way you said
maybe the one was a Gaelic word
I've been on the net too long................ and I've met too many who do
advise the Irish Diaspora - who are considered to be experts by these
people - and who advise them without real knowledge of Irish records or
How can you 'facilitate' TIARA conferences?.........my subject line and the
first line of my message did/does have a 'Thank you' for your
reply........... ands you were gracious, considering how I set in to your
But, really - how can you host a teleconference - set yourself/people who
work for you as an Irish expert/experts when you don't know what you are
talking about?? You're working from a fw Irish CD's........
That's what really gets me!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Sergeant" <ssergeant@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Correction and addition: Re: [Irish_Townland_Maps] Tracking
down townlands and parishes
> I host teleconferences for all kinds of research, including Irish.
> I do not represent TIARA. I facillitate TIARA teleconferences.
Ancestors and Ephemera - Bring Your Ancestors Home!