Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

lets get started

Expand Messages
  • stefanvpavlenko
    Dear owner, moderator and members, May the Lord Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, by the prayers and intersession of The Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear owner, moderator and members,

      May the Lord Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, by the prayers and
      intersession of The Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary guide us to
      the knowledge of truth concerning the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic
      Church in which is treasured all we need for our salvation.

      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
    • Mary Lanser
      ... Thank you Father Stefan, Welcome! and bless... Blessings are indeed the best way to begin. As I mentioned in my note to you earlier, this is the birthing
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        At 12:09 AM 11/05/2002 +0000, stefanvpavlenko wrote:
        >Dear owner, moderator and members,
        >
        >May the Lord Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, by the prayers and
        >intersession of The Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary guide us to
        >the knowledge of truth concerning the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic
        >Church in which is treasured all we need for our salvation.
        >
        >Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

        Thank you Father Stefan, Welcome! and bless...

        Blessings are indeed the best way to begin.

        As I mentioned in my note to you earlier, this is the birthing and baptism
        of Irenikon and so your opening is most welcome and appropriate.

        I will be working out a few kinks over the next day or so, in terms of
        presentation and letting people know how to contact "the management",
        etc. With the prayers and patience of the members, all nine of us and
        growing, and a little care on my part, I won't blow the thing up too badly.

        Christ's peace to all and good night...or morning, depending on where you
        are...

        Mary Lanser
        Owner and member...oh yes, and sinner
      • maincin
        I have been thinking about the matters in which Saint Auguistine may be said to be at loggerheads with the other Fathers of the Church. Saint John Cassian,
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 9, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I have been thinking about the matters in which Saint Auguistine may be said to be at loggerheads with the other Fathers of the Church. Saint John Cassian, Saint Hilary of Arles and Saint Vincent of Lerins joined in the rebuttal of Saint Augustine. These Saints found quite a number of issues in Auguistine's teachings which neded refutation ~

          ~ his doctrine of sin and grace

          ~ his assertion that the will is in total bondage

          ~ his teaching on the irresistibility of grace

          ~ predestinarian thought - the creme de la creme of the horrors of Augustine's thought.

          These Saints did agree with Saint Augustine partially, concerning the seriousness of sin. But in their minds the doctrine of predestination was new and alien to the Faith of the Church. It conflicts with the Tradition and it is deeply dangerous because it renders all human efforts ineffectual.

          In opposition to Saint Augustine, Cassian and the Western monks taught that while a sickness is transmitted by Adam's sin, human free will still exists and it has not been entirely obliterated. Divine grace is indeed indispensable for salvation, but it does not of necessity need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of the human will, the will can and does take the initiative toward God. In other words, Cassian is saying (as do the Orthodox today) that divine grace and human free will must work together for salvation ~ synergy. In opposition to the stark and cruel predestinarianism of the Bishop of Hippo, Cassian upheld the doctrine of God's universal and all-encompassing will to save all humankind and not just an arbitrairily chosen portion of it.


          In the case of predestination to salvation or damnation/reprobation Saint Augustine was unfortunately just as fierce and just as heretical as John Calvin 1000 years later. Calvin was simply re-presenting the Augustinian teaching which the Church of the West had wisely laid to one side and ignored.

          Fr Ambrose

          -
          -
        • SJZiobro@cs.com
          Fr. Ambrose, Catholics generally read Augustine differently than do Protestants relative to his teaching on grace, predestination, and the will.? Your
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 9, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Fr. Ambrose,
             
            Catholics generally read Augustine differently than do Protestants relative to his teaching on grace, predestination, and the will.  Your characterization below is representative of the Protestant reading.
             
            Stan


            -----Original Message-----
            From: maincin <emrys@...>
            To: Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:32 pm
            Subject: [Irenikon] Saint Augustine and other Church Fathers

             
            I have been thinking about the matters in which Saint Auguistine may be said to be at loggerheads with the other Fathers of the Church. Saint John Cassian, Saint Hilary of Arles and Saint Vincent of Lerins joined in the rebuttal of Saint Augustine. These Saints found quite a number of issues in Auguistine's teachings which neded refutation ~

            ~ his doctrine of sin and grace

            ~ his assertion that the will is in total bondage

            ~ his teaching on the irresistibility of grace

            ~ predestinarian thought - the creme de la creme of the horrors of Augustine's thought.

            These Saints did agree with Saint Augustine partially, concerning the seriousness of sin. But in their minds the doctrine of predestination was new and alien to the Faith of the Church. It conflicts with the Tradition and it is deeply dangerous because it renders all human efforts ineffectual.

            In opposition to Saint Augustine, Cassian and the Western monks taught that while a sickness is transmitted by Adam's sin, human free will still exists and it has not been entirely obliterated. Divine grace is indeed indispensable for salvation, but it does not of necessity need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of the human will, the will can and does take the initiative toward God. In other words, Cassian is saying (as do the Orthodox today) that divine grace and human free will must work together for salvation ~ synergy. In opposition to the stark and cruel predestinarianism of the Bishop of Hippo, Cassian upheld the doctrine of God's universal and all-encompassing will to save all humankind and not just an arbitrairily chosen portion of it.

            In the case of predestination to salvation or damnation/reprobati on Saint Augustine was unfortunately just as fierce and just as heretical as John Calvin 1000 years later. Calvin was simply re-presenting the Augustinian teaching which the Church of the West had wisely laid to one side and ignored.

            Fr Ambrose

            -
            -

          • fatheraugustine
            This is not an accurate treatment of the subject. I ve read the criticism directed against Augustine by these Fathers. There are a few points to remember. 1)
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 10, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              This is not an accurate treatment of the subject. I've read the criticism directed against Augustine by these Fathers. There are a few points to remember.

              1) Some of the Augustinian doctrines you mention are not Augustine's at all (total bondage of the will? irresistibility of grace? You'd have to be an idiot, which Augustine was not. Total bondage of the will is the notion that the fall so corrupted the will that, even with the normal grace by which God sustains its existence, it cannot help but choose evil - something Augustine does not teach; Augustine also taught that God withheld special graces by a just judgment, from those whom He foreknew would make ill use of it... if Augustine believed that God knew they would make ill use of it, it is clear that he believed they were capable of doing so - i.e., resisting grace. This was also evidenced by St. Augustine's words yesterday regarding Esau. Will people never tire of slandering a Father of the Church?).

              2) The Fathers who discussed matters with him discussed with him as theologians debating points and looking for a firmer understanding. They were not his adversaries, but were always respectful of him; none brought charges of heresy or considered him an heretic.

              3) The Fathers after Augustine praised his writings, and the Council of Orange indicated the acceptance of his ideas (if not always his terms). Ecumenical Synods and even later Fathers seem to have a fondness for him. Only us amateurs have problems with him.

              4) When Augustine spoke of the necessity of grace in aiding the will, he meant nothing other than the fact that even the purest beings who underwent no Fall - like the Angelic Powers - have their entire existence predicated upon and sustained by the grace of God. Nothing can do anything without God's grace.

              The only place where he and Cassian (and others) disagreed, was in the terminology and "viewpoint" from which they approached the question. Cassian and others were taking the grace which causes and sustains existence for granted, and were saying that from within that viewpoint, the will of course has some power to choose rightly. Augustine agrees when he speaks from within this viewpoint, as anyone who reads "De Libero Arbitrio" (On Free Will), including his "Fresh Treatments" (Retractiones) on the work late in life, can see. But at other times, Augustine was not taking such things for granted - for example, when Pelagius was teaching that a man could theoretically make all the right, salvific choices apart from God's grace - and when he speaks from this viewpoint, he was emphasizing that, in the end, we all must confess that even our ability to choose *wrongly* comes from God's grace. That we can choose at all is God's grace!

              I'll post a bit more about this, but in a separate post.

              5) Finally, Calvin did not simply reiterate Augustine's teaching, as anybody who reads them both will see.

              6) Be careful what you say about Augustine today... it's his feast day!


              Augustine



              --- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, "maincin" <emrys@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been thinking about the matters in which Saint Auguistine may be said to be at loggerheads with the other Fathers of the Church. Saint John Cassian, Saint Hilary of Arles and Saint Vincent of Lerins joined in the rebuttal of Saint Augustine. These Saints found quite a number of issues in Auguistine's teachings which neded refutation ~
              >
              > ~ his doctrine of sin and grace
              >
              > ~ his assertion that the will is in total bondage
              >
              > ~ his teaching on the irresistibility of grace
              >
              > ~ predestinarian thought - the creme de la creme of the horrors of Augustine's thought.
              >
              > These Saints did agree with Saint Augustine partially, concerning the seriousness of sin. But in their minds the doctrine of predestination was new and alien to the Faith of the Church. It conflicts with the Tradition and it is deeply dangerous because it renders all human efforts ineffectual.
              >
              > In opposition to Saint Augustine, Cassian and the Western monks taught that while a sickness is transmitted by Adam's sin, human free will still exists and it has not been entirely obliterated. Divine grace is indeed indispensable for salvation, but it does not of necessity need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of the human will, the will can and does take the initiative toward God. In other words, Cassian is saying (as do the Orthodox today) that divine grace and human free will must work together for salvation ~ synergy. In opposition to the stark and cruel predestinarianism of the Bishop of Hippo, Cassian upheld the doctrine of God's universal and all-encompassing will to save all humankind and not just an arbitrairily chosen portion of it.
              >
              >
              > In the case of predestination to salvation or damnation/reprobation Saint Augustine was unfortunately just as fierce and just as heretical as John Calvin 1000 years later. Calvin was simply re-presenting the Augustinian teaching which the Church of the West had wisely laid to one side and ignored.
              >
              > Fr Ambrose
              >
              > -
              > -
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.