[NIR-DOWN] Education A Mis-conception
- We have a couple of misconceptions here.
1. Universities were nothing more than a collection of "colleges" and
colleges have been around for quite some time and long before the concept
reached the land of the Scottii ["the Irish" who were the first Celtic
settlers from the continent to the island during the stone age as opposed to
the Iberian Celts who arrived 500 years later from what is now Spain].
Socrates attended a scholarium or a magistratum from which the word
"university" is derived.
2. Secondly Elizabeth I re-established the olde college in Dublin and called
it Trinity College of Dublin in the 17th century initially yes for Anglicans
and later Presbyterians a great many of whom were native Irish as members of
the Reformation and later again for Catholics. There were social classes in
each group and lucky for north America and Australia those with money and an
education were the most likely to leave first. The less fortunate stayed and
in a great many cases simply went to England to work on the farms and in the
mills. It was this group that lead to some rather interesting and less
fortunate tales about the poorer Irish that permeates literature to this
The exact same problematic level of obtaining an education in Scotland
was the same. The Protestant Reformation hit everyone at approximately the
same time. In fact it was the mirror image on the continent but in many
cases in reverse. If anyone was "big" on education is was the Irish and
their collegial monks who were responsible for the re-introduction of
Christianity back into the Continent.
I'd be might leery about any misconception as to the education of the
Irish as to being less than anywhere else. There were almost just as many
Irish that joined the Reformation as any where else. And like anywhere else
there was an economic hurdle as well that effected both groups. In fact more
Irish obtained their BA's than did the Scots and for quite some time.
Your sweeping and obviously un-educated statements about the Irish in
the particular and specific are to be regretted. Lastly, and unlike the poor
Irish classes on both sides who lived in simple little stone houses with
straw roofs and dirt floors, that they would rather migrate than starve, it
was the poor Scots including the Gordons, a great many who lived in sod
huts, some at ground level, who were simply cleared off the lands [i.e.
deported to such an extent that whole Clans now only exist in north America]
by the "lairds of the land" few of whom were English to make way for the
raising of large herds of sheep who were considered more valuable than the
simple minded highlanders and lowlanders. Some of the smarter ones simply
retraced their Irish roots and went home, bag pipe and all to, yep you
guessed it, to Ireland.
in Trinitas omnium
From: "Sandra Gordon" <sgordon817@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Education
My understanding is that the Scots were very "big" on education. The
first Universities were established in Scotland. I can't give dates off the
top of my head, but I will check this tomorrow. I do know that my
G-Grandfather, born in 1840, was well educated, as were his siblings in Co.
Down. I have family letters that indicate they had a command of the
language and their penmanship was beautiful. My G-Grandfather's brother
finished school and served a five year apprenticeship. He then returned to
school for a higher education - which was rare.
From the many books I've read about the Scots-Irish in America, they all
indicate that they were more highly educated than the average immigrant to
Always be leery of equating the Scots in Ireland from the native Irish.
The native Irish did not have the same freedoms as the Scots. Their
education would be very different from the Scots who settled in North
Ireland. The native Irish had a much harder time under British rule than