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Re: Pittel -- Einhorn Disclaimer

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  • David Crockett Williams
    Jack, All I am saying is that this whole burundanga/scopolamine issue blew my mind as completely new information and (only due to the coincidence of its being
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 20, 2001
      Jack,

      All I am saying is that this whole burundanga/scopolamine issue blew my mind
      as completely new information and (only due to the coincidence of its being
      separately brought to my attention by Dr. Pittel on my mention of my
      interest in the chemical physics of consciousness as a new topic of
      discussion after we had finished our conversation about Ira's case) -- I
      myself without any such indication from Pittel jumped to a speculation that
      it is "possible" but "very unlikely due to lack of any shred of evidence"
      that this drug was a factor in Einhorn's case. Pittel called me back after
      reading my first post on this matter to reiterate and to request I make it
      even more clear for the record anticipating folks such as yourself, Jack,
      who don't read normal English words very carefully and therefore easily jump
      to conclusions, that he/Pittel has no evidence or idea or information or
      indication whatsoever that this burundanga/scopolamine stuff was in any way
      connected to Ira's case.

      MY OWN speculation on this, which I agree that Ira will probably not like at
      all, is that "if and only if" Ira, on learning of this information mailed to
      him yesterday, can clearly remember some incident the day following his last
      meeting with Holly where he experienced missing time amnesia/delirium, which
      was either witnessed by or told to someone else who would also remember
      that, then this speculation might be a possible explanation for what
      happened. I expect Ira will say "nuts" to the idea and will not have such a
      memory. If so, end of story. If not, ie, if he goes, "Oh yeah, I do
      remember the day after Holly left for the last time I woke up totally
      disoriented in my apartment and at the time just thought it was due to XXX,
      I mentioned it to YYY who came over that morning and saw me all weirded out
      like never before but we both just wrote it off at the time and I never saw
      Holly again" then and only then would this speculation of mine warrant
      further investigation as a possibility in this case. In such scenario,
      let's say, several alternatives seem possible -- he was dosed and she was
      abducted on the spot by "someone" and killed elsewhere much later to be put
      in the trunk which was emptied by parties unknown of the "secret papers" Ira
      said were in it and thought were still in it and he would thereafter have no
      memory other than Holly was there the night before and gone when he woke up.
      In a worst case scenario this drug's effects could mean he was dosed and
      given instructions to kill her by someone and he wouldn't remember anything
      later.

      Isn't this a bit like sorting through various physics theories to see which
      parts fit together and make sense and which don't? I'm simply saying that
      the evidence now at hand is that at least from 1969 the effects of this drug
      have been published in scientific literature (psychology), we know the CIA
      was experimenting with many drugs including LSD in the 60's and 70's for
      mind-control applications, it is reasonable to think this burundanga stuff
      came to their attention at least by the time of the 1969 article I sent you,
      it is reasonable to think that these experiments included testing (and
      perfecting and using it -- if it worked as is now apparent more publicly)
      burundanga/scopolamine, and if Ira was really such a threat to "someone" for
      talking about "whatever", this drug as a "tool" COULD have been used --- at
      minimum for someone coming to the door, blowing some powder in Ira's face,
      abducting Holly, and who would remember what in the morning?

      If this had happened would Ira the next day think, "gee something weird
      happened last night but I don't remember anything but it was so weird I
      won't talk to anyone about it" --- and then after the body was discovered
      not mention such a weird experience because he couldn't understand it and
      was not aware of burundanga effects? All pure speculation and a waste of
      energy perhaps as applies to Ira's case --- but the fact remains that this
      drug exists and in my opinion it is very likely that it has been used in
      those mind-control drug experiments on at least a small number of subjects.

      Sorry I brought this burundanga issue up in connection with Ira as it is
      likely to go nowhere substantive on that matter but still this burundanga
      thing is another of the interconnected issues perhaps related to Ira's case
      many of which you, Jack, discount without investigation such as the still
      ongoing CIA drug smuggling complicity over the last 50years which Ira
      brought to attention of the PA attorney general in early 70's -- just one
      possible reason why he was framed for murder to shut him up as was now
      imprisoned-for-life former Green Beret Bill Tyree framed for the murder of
      his wife, also coincidentally in 1979, to shut him up about the same
      issue -- details at http://www.copvcia.com

      If you can get a straight answer, Jack, out of any of your and Ira's
      colleagues who like you were involved in secret CIA mind-control research in
      the 70's, see what they have to say about burundanga and, to the extent you
      can, let us know what you find out.

      David



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@...>
      To: "David Crockett Williams" <gear2000@...>
      Cc: "Stephen M. Pittel Ph.D." <SMPA@...>; "Linda Loyd"
      <lloyd@...>; "apbnews" <pressinquiry@...>; "Robert Moran"
      <bmoran@...>; "Theresa Conroy - Phillynews"
      <conroyt@...>; "Gloria Campisi" <campisg@...>; "Dan
      Rubin" <Dan.Rubin@...>; "Marty Moss-Coane"
      <martym@...>; "WHYY Radio NPR" <talkback@...>; "Philadelphia
      Inquirer (PA)" <Inquirer.Opinion@...>; "Philadelphia Daily News"
      <DailyNews.Opinion@...>; "Jonathan Takiff"
      <takiffj@...>; "Jacqueline Soteropoulos"
      <jsoteropoulos@...>; "Doctor Jibar Rish"
      <quanta@...>; "Saul Paul Sirag" <sirag@...>; "Stephen
      Schwartz" <karastjepan@...>; "Steven Levy" <steven@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:32 PM
      Subject: Re: Stephan Pittel -- Ira Einhorn Disclaimer


      > I do not understand this. What is your point? Say it simply. Are you
      suggesting that Ira did murder Holly under the influence of this drug?
      Without evidence it is idle speculation and I am pretty sure Ira would not
      like it - unless it can beshown that Pittel or someone known to Pittel gave
      Ira that drug at that time. Who were Ira's medical associates at that time
      who would have known about such drugs?
      >
      > David Crockett Williams wrote:
      >
      > > For the record, for all those who may have received my previous post
      (Ira
      > > Einhorn "framed" via a CIA MKUltra Columbian "Manchurian Candidate
      Drug"?),
      > > the speculation of any possible connection between the
      > > Burundanga/Scopolamine drug effects and any relationship to the Ira
      Einhorn
      > > case is purely my own speculation and not due to any case-specific
      factual
      > > information at hand possessed by me or by Dr. Stephan Pittel who
      yesterday
      > > on the phone brought the burundaga issue to my attention completely
      separate
      > > from the Einhorn matter only after I mentioned my separate interest in
      the
      > > chemical physics of consciousness.
      > >
      > > Since Dr. Pittel has offered his help if needed for Einhorn's new trial
      in
      > > his capacity as a prominent forensic psychologist who also happens to
      have
      > > been acquainted with Einhorn since 1964, it is particularly important
      that I
      > > here clarify this point for the public record, that he has expressed to
      me
      > > no information or idea or prejudice, nor has he suggested any, that
      there is
      > > in fact any connection in this regard -- although in my own opinion from
      > > this drug's effects it is "possible", my personal opinion that as a
      chemist
      > > I believe experts in this field will agree with. I will be copying this
      and
      > > above referenced post to Ira and expect he will discount the idea unless
      he
      > > has a specific memory of an experience of delirium exactly in
      specifically
      > > relevant time-frame of the Maddux murder.
      > >
      > > David Crockett Williams
      >
      > --
      > "What I cannot create. I do not understand." Richard Feynman
      >
      >
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