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Re: SV: [Indo-Eurasia] Learning Sanskrit (again?) [and Tibetan]

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  • Richard MAHONEY
    ... [snip] ... Your friend would do well to consult the following: Lehrbuch der klassischen tibetischen Schriftsprache / von Michael Hahn. Hahn, Michael.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
      On Sat, 2006-02-04 at 10:18, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
      > >I have a friend who wanted to know the best self-starter texts for the
      > complete novice to begin learning Sanskrit and Tibetan.
      >
      > As for Sanskrit:

      [snip]

      > 1. Jan Gonda: A Concise Elementary Grammar of the Sanskrit Language: With
      > Exercises, Reading Selections, And a Glossary. Univ of Alabama Press, 2006.
      >
      >
      > 2. Walter Maurer: The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Grammar and Reader
      > . RoutledgeCurzon.
      >
      > Notice that there is a price difference: Maurer: 70 british pounds. Gonda:
      > not a lot.
      >
      > 3. Coulson: Teach Yourself Sanskrit. Not too pricey.
      >
      > The Tibetan I'll leave to others.

      Your friend would do well to consult the following:

      Lehrbuch der klassischen tibetischen Schriftsprache /
      von Michael Hahn.
      Hahn, Michael.
      Swisttal-Odendorf :
      Indica et Tibetica Verlag,
      1994.

      Further details available here:

      http://tinyurl.com/br7us

      v. also:

      http://www.iet-verlag.de/


      I've a typescript of Pagel's English trans. of the above before me. I
      believe this has now been published by Hahn, though I've not seen this
      final version. Definitely worth trying to track down.


      Best,

      Richard


      --
      Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org
      Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699
      Bay Road | cellular: ++64 27 482 9986
      OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney[use"@"]iconz.co.nz
    • Lars Martin Fosse
      ... von Michael Hahn. Richard, I have Michael Hahn s book in my library, but I have one problem with it: the Tibetan print is a bit on the tiny size. This may,
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 4, 2006
        Richard Mahoney wrote:

        >Your friend would do well to consult the following:

        >Lehrbuch der klassischen tibetischen Schriftsprache /
        von Michael Hahn.

        Richard, I have Michael Hahn's book in my library, but I have one problem
        with it: the Tibetan print is a bit on the tiny size. This may, of course,
        only be a personal problem for me, otherwise the books would seem excellent
        in every other respect. I never got around to learning Tibetan so far, but I
        did at least buy the books. So for those who struggle with small print, here
        are a couple of other titles:

        Khenpo Tshultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche / Albrecht Frasch: Lehrebuch der
        tibetischen Umgangs- und Schriftsprache. Berlin, 1999.

        I find the Tibetan print in this book easier to read, and for anyone
        struggling to learn the writing system, this might be better to start with.

        Then there is:

        Andrew Bloomfield and Yanki Tshering
        Learning Practical Tibetan. New York, 1998.

        Here Tibetan words are given with a transcription. It may also be useful to
        have. But again: I never learnt any Tibetan, so this advice is given with
        reservations.

        Lars Martin



        From:
        Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
        Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
        0674 Oslo - Norway
        Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250
        Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
        E-mail: lmfosse@...
        http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=!64
      • lighthisertim
        ... I have a friend who wanted to know the best self-starter texts for the ... Hi, Sanskrit: an Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language. Richmond:
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 5, 2006
          --- In Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com, atman@... wrote:
          I have a friend who wanted to know the best self-starter texts for the
          > complete novice to begin learning Sanskrit and Tibetan.


          Hi,

          Sanskrit: an Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language. Richmond:
          Svadhyaya Publications by Dr. Ashok Aklujkar
          (<http://www.asia.ubc.ca/index.php?id=5042>)


          Sanskrit Language Texts A list of the best books for learning
          Sanskrit.
          (<http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0078.htm>).

          hth,

          Tim Lighthiser
        • Allen W Thrasher
          In Oslo, we use Gonda s introduction to Sanskrit the first semester. It is tough if you are completely without grammatical knowledge, but it gets the job
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 6, 2006
            " In Oslo, we use Gonda's introduction to Sanskrit the first
            semester. It is tough if you are completely without grammatical knowledge,
            but it gets the job done, and it is a quick intro."

            Are Norwegian students getting to university without knowing grammar, or at least the terms of grammar in Norwegian and other languages?

            I remember was back in 1973, about half-way through my first quarter teaching Sanskrit at the University of Washington in Seattle, I discovered I had been using the basic terms of grammar (parts of speech, cases, the types of sentences, etc.) and my students, although they all spoke and wrote Standard English fine, were totally unacquainted with them. I wrote home for my old pre-college textbooks and prepared mimeographed handouts of rough and ready definitions taken from them ("A noun is the name of a person, place, or thing"), without worrying whether they would satisfy contemporary linguists. I was I confess rather shocked.

            I would think that nowadays with an immeasurably greater percentage of kids in school for whom English, let alone standard English, is not their mother tongue, drilled formal grammar would be even more desirable, but I suspect the educationist establishment doesn't think so.

            Allen



            Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian
            South Asia Team, Asian Division
            Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
            101 Independence Ave., S.E.
            Washington, DC 20540-4810
            tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr@...
            The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.
          • Lars Martin Fosse
            You are entirely right! They know less and less grammar. So now we have to supply them with quick-intros to school grammar, which they then don t read. I had 8
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 6, 2006
              You are entirely right! They know less and less grammar. So now we have to
              supply them with quick-intros to school grammar, which they then don't read.
              I had 8 students for beginner's Sanskrit this autumn. Three left after two
              weeks, one only sat there and listened, two gave up, one flunked his second
              test and couldn't do the examination, and one finished. He already knew
              Latin, was extremely bright and did his Sanskrit as a left-hand exercise
              while doing more demanding stuff. Another super-bright student was not
              allowed to do the course for bureaucratic reasons. So I was stuck with the
              grammatically challenged.

              The school system is a catastrophy in this respect. Grammars are written,
              but only introduced at university level, if at all.

              Lars Martin

              From:
              Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
              Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
              0674 Oslo - Norway
              Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250
              Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
              E-mail: lmfosse@...
              http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164




              _____

              Fra: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com] På vegne av Allen W Thrasher
              Sendt: 6. februar 2006 18:51
              Til: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: [Indo-Eurasia] Learning Sanskrit (again?)


              " In Oslo, we use Gonda's introduction to Sanskrit the first
              semester. It is tough if you are completely without grammatical knowledge,
              but it gets the job done, and it is a quick intro."

              Are Norwegian students getting to university without knowing grammar, or at
              least the terms of grammar in Norwegian and other languages?

              I remember was back in 1973, about half-way through my first quarter
              teaching Sanskrit at the University of Washington in Seattle, I discovered I
              had been using the basic terms of grammar (parts of speech, cases, the types
              of sentences, etc.) and my students, although they all spoke and wrote
              Standard English fine, were totally unacquainted with them. I wrote home
              for my old pre-college textbooks and prepared mimeographed handouts of rough
              and ready definitions taken from them ("A noun is the name of a person,
              place, or thing"), without worrying whether they would satisfy contemporary
              linguists. I was I confess rather shocked.

              I would think that nowadays with an immeasurably greater percentage of kids
              in school for whom English, let alone standard English, is not their mother
              tongue, drilled formal grammar would be even more desirable, but I suspect
              the educationist establishment doesn't think so.

              Allen



              Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian
              South Asia Team, Asian Division
              Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150
              101 Independence Ave., S.E.
              Washington, DC 20540-4810
              tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr@...
              The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of
              Congress.






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            • Miska Pruszowska
              Sadly, it is exactly the same in The Netherlands (and probably in a few other countries around the world). From among eight of my students (beginners Sasnkrit)
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 7, 2006
                Sadly, it is exactly the same in The Netherlands (and
                probably in a few other countries around the world).
                From among eight of my students (beginners Sasnkrit)
                two knew the basic grammatical terms such as
                adjective, noun etc. Somehow the knowledge of grammar
                is not considered important nowadays...

                Anna Slaczka.

                --- Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@...> wrote:

                > You are entirely right! They know less and less
                > grammar. So now we have to
                > supply them with quick-intros to school grammar,
                > which they then don't read.
                > I had 8 students for beginner's Sanskrit this
                > autumn. Three left after two
                > weeks, one only sat there and listened, two gave up,
                > one flunked his second
                > test and couldn't do the examination, and one
                > finished. He already knew
                > Latin, was extremely bright and did his Sanskrit as
                > a left-hand exercise
                > while doing more demanding stuff. Another
                > super-bright student was not
                > allowed to do the course for bureaucratic reasons.
                > So I was stuck with the
                > grammatically challenged.
                >
                > The school system is a catastrophy in this respect.
                > Grammars are written,
                > but only introduced at university level, if at all.
                >
                > Lars Martin
                >
              • Alex Passi
                Dear List Members, I must admit that I have been having the same problem for some time -- which, in a country where at least two Ministry high-school education
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 7, 2006
                  Dear List Members,
                  I must admit that I have been having the same problem for some time
                  -- which, in a country where at least two Ministry high-school
                  education programs have mandatory Latin for 5 years, and one of these
                  also has mandatory 5 yr. Greek, is especially troubling.
                  With this now very dwindling minority, teaching Sanskrit grammar has
                  always been a breeze. With the others (whose foreign language
                  experience usually does not reach beyond badly taught English), one
                  goes through the whole year and then discovers that very little has
                  'really' been assimilated. I've tried recourse to standard junior
                  high school Italian syntax texts, with practically no results.
                  But my question is this: does any list member working in Europe have
                  the feeling that things have gotten worse in very recent times, say,
                  three-four years? My experience leads me to believe so for the
                  Italian situation, and I wonder if this is part of a wider trend, or
                  just the result of the ripening of bad Ministry of Education-
                  generated karma in this country alone.

                  Alex Passi


                  Alex (Alessandro) Passi,
                  Department of Linguistic and Oriental Studies
                  University of Bologna,
                  Via Zamboni 16
                  Bologna, 40126, Italy.

                  a.passi@...
                  alexpassi@...
                  phone +39-338.269.4933
                  fax +39-059-975.0280
                • Dean Anderson
                  I don t think anyone has mentioned this series yet which people say is very helpful in getting up to speed on the basics. For someone without solid language
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 7, 2006
                    I don't think anyone has mentioned this series yet which people say is
                    very helpful in getting up to speed on the basics. For someone without
                    solid language training, Sanskrit can be very daunting.

                    Egenes' books make those crucial early days much less painful.

                    Introduction to Sanskrit, Part 1, 2, workbook
                    by Thomas Egenes

                    Best,

                    Dean Anderson
                  • lmfosse@chello.no
                    Alex asked: is this part of a wider trend? Talking to an older colleague here the other day, I got the following report: Before 1973, everything was wonderful,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 7, 2006
                      Alex asked: is this part of a wider trend?

                      Talking to an older colleague here the other day, I got the following report: Before 1973, everything was wonderful, from 1973 till 1993 the situation deteriorated steadily, after 1993 it went into a steep dive. The school system, which has to accommodate all sorts of students to keep them out of the unemployment statitstics, has systematically removed all subjects that could produce "loosers". In addition to that, far too many people are accepted by the universities for the same reason: to keep them out of the unemployment stats. In the good old days, most of these students would have received vocational training, but that is too expensive these days.

                      Lars Martin


                      >
                      > fra: Alex Passi <a.passi@...>
                      > dato: 2006/02/07 ti AM 10:45:53 MET
                      > til: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
                      > emne: Re: SV: [Indo-Eurasia] Learning Sanskrit (again?)
                      >
                      >
                    • Alex Passi
                      Sounds familiar. 6 years ago a sweeping reform transformed all the undergradutate BA courses (4 years) into three years lower level degrees, followed by 2
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                        Sounds familiar. 6 years ago a sweeping reform transformed all the
                        undergradutate BA courses (4 years) into three years lower level
                        degrees, followed by 2 years higher level degrees. One would think
                        that, in 5 years, students would have access to more class-hours than
                        under the previous system, but, as all courses now have a 60-hr.
                        yearly maximum, it doesn't work that way. People are paying more for
                        their university courses, and attending - on average - less classes
                        in 5 yrs. than they used to attend in the 4-yr. system.
                        But at times I wonder if it's just a scholastic problem or if it
                        isn't part of a more general malaise with reference to learning.

                        Alex

                        On 07/02/2006, at 6:43 PM, <lmfosse@...> wrote:

                        Alex asked: is this part of a wider trend?

                        Talking to an older colleague here the other day, I got the following
                        report: Before 1973, everything was wonderful, from 1973 till 1993
                        the situation deteriorated steadily, after 1993 it went into a steep
                        dive. The school system, which has to accommodate all sorts of
                        students to keep them out of the unemployment statitstics, has
                        systematically removed all subjects that could produce "loosers". In
                        addition to that, far too many people are accepted by the
                        universities for the same reason: to keep them out of the
                        unemployment stats. In the good old days, most of these students
                        would have received vocational training, but that is too expensive
                        these days.

                        ------

                        Alex (Alessandro) Passi,
                        Department of Linguistic and Oriental Studies
                        University of Bologna,
                        Via Zamboni 16
                        Bologna, 40126, Italy.

                        a.passi@...
                        alexpassi@...
                        phone +39-338.269.4933
                        fax +39-059-975.0280
                      • Michael Landau
                        mikelande3@yahoo.ca a écrit : May I add just a small notice on this subject? I m merely a student doing a Master degree in Indology @ UCL (Belgium), and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                          mikelande3@... a écrit : May I add just a small notice on this subject?

                          I'm merely a student doing a Master degree in Indology @ UCL (Belgium), and have no experience whatsoever in teaching.

                          1. Nonetheless, as I followed all my school years in France, I can assure you of one thing: nobody ( or almost) will graduate from high school without knowing what's a noun, adjective, etc... I think you have to make a difference between what's taught to pupils in school and the true definition and meaning of grammatical words, which is then taught in university. Until I followed French classes in Nice University (France) as a part of the Classical Philology major, I couldn't tell for instance, the exact grammatical definition of direct object, even though I knew what kind of signification it had in a sentence, and what was the function in that sentence.
                          2. It's also a fact that to do a Master in Indology @ UCL, one of the prerequisites was to have followed at least a Latin course (if not Greek), which proved indeed very useful. Most of the people doing a Master in Oriental Philology, did one in Classical Philology (that says it all doesn't it?).
                          3. Most of the students in Sanskrit can take the language course without being into a degree in Oriental Philology, which means they come from other fields, where they hardly ever talk about grammar, ( imagine than for Sanskrit, which is one of the most complicated in the world), and the last time they heard about it was in their last year in junior high. Those people probably never heard about accusative or dative (as a grammatical term) not to talk about aorist, or precative for example (I have even problems myself understanding the later one after 3 years of Sanskrit!).
                          4. Conclusion: it might be useful for Sanskrit teachers to emphasize simple grammatical points, that might have been forgotten not assuming that people never knew them, or on the contrary assuming everybody knows them. I'm not a good example, but I sometimes help foreign students, and people in other majors then philology with their work. And once you tell them with some examples(even if it's not the exact truth), that an Accusative is the Direct Object, or a Dative is the Indirect Object, it helps them to catch it a lot quicker, and I believe most of university students are still familiar with basics in grammar, even though it needs a little refreshing.
                          So let's not overdramatize, moreover the trends in studies are more oriented towards science, technology, and economy, even from primary school, than towards language, let's face it. This probably means new ways of teaching and learning languages too. But you probably all have way more experience than I do in this respect.

                          Best regards,

                          Michael Landau


                          You are entirely right! They know less and less grammar. So now we have to
                          supply them with quick-intros to school grammar, which they then don't read.
                          ...
                          So I was stuck with the
                          grammatically challenged.

                          The school system is a catastrophy in this respect. Grammars are written,
                          but only introduced at university level, if at all.
                        • Victor Mair
                          Dear All, There is an interesting book called __The Man Shu (Book of the Southern Barbarians )__ by a Tang writer named Fan Chuo. It was published at the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                            Dear All,

                            There is an interesting book called __The Man Shu (Book of the Southern
                            "Barbarians")__ by a Tang writer named Fan Chuo. It was published at
                            the beginning of the Xiantong reign period (860-873). Gordon H. Luce
                            produced an English translation of __The Man Shu__ that was edited by G.
                            P. Oey as Data Paper Number 44 for the Southeast Asia Program,
                            Department of Far Eastern Studies (Cornell University) in December,
                            1961. The translation is generally reliable, but unfortunately lacks
                            modern, Sinologically rigorous annotations.

                            The reason I am calling this book to your attention is that it describes
                            in considerable detail different aspects of the peoples of eastern,
                            southern, and western Yunnan during the mid-9th century (essentially the
                            kingdom of Nan Zhao) up to the Burmese border. Of particular interest
                            to me (and perhaps also to you) is the description of things that show a
                            clear connection with peoples from the far northwest: greaves (and
                            other armor), felt (for hats! -- in the subtropics!), horses (the
                            attention paid to horses [far from their natural habitat here] is one of
                            the most conspicuous features of the book), women warriors, musicians
                            (some specifically noted as coming from Kucha in the Tarim Basin!),
                            burial customs, and so forth. In places, it particularly mentions HU2
                            monks from Central Asia, Persia, India, and so forth.

                            Of course, many of these Central Asian aspects of society and culture in
                            Yunnan were already evident in the Dian kingdom (Warring States and Han
                            times) and earlier -- especially well-known from archeological evidence.
                            But it is good to have a textual account as well -- even though it is
                            relatively late, because it gives names and a fair amount of linguistic
                            data, albeit mostly of a rather crude and garbled nature.

                            Since the Scythians, Hephthalites, Mongols, and other steppe peoples
                            encroached upon South Asia at various times, there may be parallels
                            worth considering for Indian history as well.

                            Best,

                            Victor
                          • worlduninews
                            The problem is that Fan Chuo didn t know the local languages. We see this same problem with the much later, travelogue of Xu Xiake s who s given name was
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                              The problem is that Fan Chuo didn't know the local languages. We see
                              this same problem with the much later, travelogue of Xu Xiake's who's
                              given name was Hongzu, born in jiangyin county.

                              Xu's highly personal prose style in fact gives the reader the vivid
                              impression of walking alongside Xu as he travels the roads and trails of
                              southwest China. Travelling to the Yunnan border, he offered very little
                              information about the non-Han peoples of Guizhou. Because Xu's focus
                              thus is intently on the physical geography and not the human
                              landscape, the Southwest appears at times to be uninhabited and
                              unpossessed�
                              E.P.Wijnants
                              http://sociologyesoscience.com

                              --- In Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com, Victor Mair
                              <vmair@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear All,
                              >
                              > There is an interesting book called __The Man Shu (Book of the
                              Southern
                              > "Barbarians")__ by a Tang writer named Fan Chuo. It was published
                              at
                              > the beginning of the Xiantong reign period (860-873). Gordon H. Luce
                              > produced an English translation of __The Man Shu__ that was edited
                              by G.
                              > P. Oey as Data Paper Number 44 for the Southeast Asia Program,
                              > Department of Far Eastern Studies (Cornell University) in December,
                              > 1961. The translation is generally reliable, but unfortunately lacks
                              > modern, Sinologically rigorous annotations.
                              >
                              > The reason I am calling this book to your attention is that it describes
                              > in considerable detail different aspects of the peoples of eastern,
                              > southern, and western Yunnan during the mid-9th century (essentially
                              the
                              > kingdom of Nan Zhao) up to the Burmese border.
                            • James Ward
                              Hi Victor, Thank you for this very interesting reference. It does indeed seem that there was a southern branch of the trade routes from the west that possibly
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                Hi Victor,

                                Thank you for this very interesting reference. It does indeed seem
                                that there was a southern branch of the trade routes from the west that
                                possibly bypassed Gansu. There was apparently a Sogdian community in
                                Chengdu, and a hu caravan was captured by the Chinese in Qinghai in the
                                6th century.

                                Best,

                                James Ward


                                Victor Mair wrote:

                                > Of particular interest to me (and perhaps also to you) is the
                                > description of things that show a clear connection with peoples from
                                > the far northwest:  greaves (and other armor), felt (for hats! -- in
                                > the subtropics!), horses (the attention paid to horses [far from their
                                > natural habitat here] is one of the most conspicuous features of the
                                > book), women warriors, musicians (some specifically noted as coming
                                > from Kucha in the Tarim Basin!), burial customs, and so forth.  In
                                > places, it particularly mentions HU2 monks from Central Asia, Persia,
                                > India, and so forth.
                              • Victor Mair
                                Thanks for your comments, James. The HU2 who were the Sogdians were all over the place during this period. AN Lushan (Roxan the Arsacid [that s more or less
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                  Thanks for your comments, James. The HU2 who were the Sogdians were all
                                  over the place during this period. AN Lushan (Roxan the Arsacid [that's
                                  more or less what the transcriptional Chinese name means]), who led the
                                  rebellion that led to the eventual fall of the Tang Dynasty, was born of
                                  Turco-Sogdian parentage in a Sogdian trading colony in Manchuria. I was
                                  not previously aware of Sogdians being in Chengdu, but it doesn't
                                  surprise me one bit.

                                  There has been a lot of good research done on the routes that led from
                                  the Gansu-Qinghai region all the way down to Yunnan, and -- of course --
                                  they passed through Sichuan.

                                  Dunhuang (at the end of the Gansu Corridor), the jumping-off place for
                                  the northern and southern branches of the Silk Road as it skirted the
                                  Tarim Basin, was closely linked (culturally and economically) to Sichuan
                                  during the Tang.

                                  Best,

                                  Victor



                                  James Ward wrote:

                                  > Hi Victor,
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for this very interesting reference. It does indeed seem
                                  > that there was a southern branch of the trade routes from the west that
                                  > possibly bypassed Gansu. There was apparently a Sogdian community in
                                  > Chengdu, and a hu caravan was captured by the Chinese in Qinghai in the
                                  > 6th century.
                                  >
                                  > Best,
                                  >
                                  > James Ward
                                • James Ward
                                  Hi Victor, ... Yes, I guess it s not too difficult to see why the Tang attitude toward the exotic Turks and Hu changed rather radically after that. They made
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 10, 2006
                                    Hi Victor,

                                    You wrote:

                                    > AN Lushan (Roxan the Arsacid [that's more or less what the
                                    > transcriptional Chinese name means]), who led the rebellion that led
                                    > to the eventual fall of the Tang Dynasty, was born of Turco-Sogdian
                                    > parentage in a Sogdian trading colony in Manchuria. 

                                    Yes, I guess it's not too difficult to see why the Tang attitude toward
                                    the exotic Turks and Hu changed rather radically after that. They made
                                    their "power play" and took their chances. It seems like the merchants
                                    should have been aware of the great possible jeopardy into which they
                                    were placing their widespread commercial interests, but I guess
                                    awareness does not necessarily equal power to oppose the momentum of
                                    the desire for conquest. And I suppose the prospect of success was
                                    irresistible to many in the communities... So instead they got Chinese
                                    reprisals and a century of protection under the Uighurs, with gradual
                                    assimilation into the Uighur and Chinese populations.

                                    So it goes. :)

                                    Best wishes,

                                    James
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