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Re: [Indo-Eurasia] NY Times: "Hindu Group Stirs a Debate Over Yoga's Soul"

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  • Artur Karp
    [Mod. note. Far from the original Yoga-topic indeed. :^) Please start a new thread if you want to pursue this topic, Artur. It is terribly open-ended, though:
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 30, 2010
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      [Mod. note. Far from the original Yoga-topic indeed. :^) Please
      start a new thread if you want to pursue this topic, Artur. It
      is terribly open-ended, though: the topic would have to be
      narrowed to lead to useful discussion. Best, Steve.]

      Hi Dan,

      A couple of days before the great battle - a warning. Saturn, the fiery
      Seizer, is visible in the sky. The Slow-Walker, the one who exceedingly
      (op)presses (all) breath-possessors.

      Mbh. V, 141.7:

      05.141.007a prājāpatyaṃ hi nakṣatraṃ grahas tīkṣṇo mahādyutiḥ
      05.141.007c śanaiścaraḥ pīḍayati pīḍayan prāṇino 'dhikam

      By the way (and already very far from the original Yoga-topic) - what do we really know about the origins of the cult of planets in India?

      Artur
    • Artur Karp
      [Mod. note. Again, drifting way beyond the topic, Artur. - SF.] 2010/12/1 Dan Lusthaus ... Hegel somewhere here, and the later
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 30, 2010
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        [Mod. note. Again, drifting way beyond the topic, Artur. - SF.]

        2010/12/1 Dan Lusthaus <vasubandhu@...>
        >
        > The Gita is obviously open to multiple interpretations, for multiple purposes, and from multiple backgrounds.

        and:

        > As for Arjuna as pawn, indeed, the Gita says as much in Ch. 11:

        > 11:33cd. mayāivāite nihatāḥ pūrvam eva | nimitta-mātraṃ bhava savysācin ||
        > By me have these already been slain; be you, Ambidextrous Archer, merely the occasion [or instrument].

        Hegel somewhere here, and the later revolutionary justifications for
        removing from the face of Earth the enemies of class/race purity - as
        the ones whom History had already consigned to its rubbish-heaps.

        Was Hegel acquainted with the Bhagavadgita?


        Artur
      • Lars Martin Fosse
        Hello Luis, And thank you for your comment and your article. No, actually, I was not trying to connect this with the yugas. One mythological parallel that
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2010
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          Hello Luis,

          And thank you for your comment and your article. No, actually, I was not
          trying to connect this with the yugas. One mythological parallel that
          springs to mind, as far as I am concerned, would be the Ragnarok of Norse
          religion, on the assumption that divinities have been replaced by mortals
          (or in the Indian case, partly by amshas of divine or demonic beings in
          human form).

          You might have a look at Christophe Vielle's book, Le Mytho-Cycle Héroique
          dand l'Aire Indo-Européenne, 1996, p. 114ff. where he among other things
          discussed the motif of the overburdened earth and Greek parallels.

          It is a long time since I had time to work with Indological matters, which
          is why I put this forth more as a question than as an assertion. My point
          about the epiphany of Krishna as Kala, the all-devouring time, is that he
          seems to absorb the universe, represented by the warriors. Eventually, new
          generations develop, as we know. In other words, Krishna as Kala would seem
          to be an early, or prototypical form of pralaya. Thus, suggest that the
          scope of the BG's narrative is broader than the family motif you point to.

          As for the yugas, there is the parallel of the four ages known to Western
          antiquity. The fact that the yugas do not play an important role in the
          Mahabharata, is in my opinion somewhat beside the point. I believe that
          Indo-European culture/religion may have contained different strands
          associated with different milieus, and that several such strands may have
          survived next to each other, some being rejected by some but accepted by
          others.

          I think this is an interesting discussion, but I am afraid I shall have to
          break it off here. When I wrote my first email on this matter, I had a
          breather, now I am buried in translation work again.

          I haven't had time to read your article, but I am looking forward to doing
          so as soon as time permits.

          All the best,

          Lars Martin


          From:
          Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse
          Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
          0674 Oslo - Norway
          Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250
          Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
          E-mail: lmfosse@...




          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 3:51 AM
          > To: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Indo-Eurasia] NY Times: "Hindu Group Stirs a
          > Debate Over Yoga's Soul"
          >
          > If I may, Lars Martin.
          >
          > I don't think Krsna's phrase about time here has anything to
          > do with the change from one yuga to another -Dvapara to
          > Kali- (which is, presumably, what you are referring to). A
          > large-scale destruction, yes.
          > But mainly the destruction of the family and its allies on
          > both sides.
          > This destruction of the family, and the battle itself, is
          > often compared to a mythological end of the world in the
          > /Mahabharata/, usually by using the term yuganta. But this
          > does not imply a placing of the Mahabharata war in the yuga system.
          >
          > I've discussed this at length, as in this article that Steve
          > kindly put on his server some time ago:
          >
          > www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Yugas.2010.pdf
          >
          > I see Krsna's statement about being kala/time as the great
          > destroyer, as the appropiation of a well-known theme at the
          > time of the Epic's
          > composition: that of kala/time as the overriding cosmic force
          > that ultimately destroys everything. In the Gita, Krsna
          > appropiates all traditions familiar to the listeners of the
          > text -the upanisadic brahman, vedic ritual, samkhya and
          > yoga- and I would say kala as a powerful force belongs in
          > the same category.
          >
          > Luis
          > _____

          >
          > on 11/30/2010 3:13 PM Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
          > >
          > > Would you agree, Dan, that the destruction Krishna here describes
          > > represents the violent transition from one era to another? That, at
          > > least, is how I have understood it myself. Krishna, who is here the
          > > supreme deity, of which Vishnu is only a lower form, and
          > the battle he
          > > "supervises" is a way to unburden the Earth, who has become
          > too full
          > > of people and therefore needs renewal...
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