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Re: Pastors on the Run

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  • Raji Johnson, Austin, Texas, indianorthod
    I think absolute power corrupts absolutely- whether it is economic, political or religious. Unlike established churches like Orthodox, Catholic, Marthoma and
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
      I think absolute power corrupts absolutely- whether it is economic,
      political or religious.

      Unlike established churches like Orthodox, Catholic, Marthoma and
      other denomination, in my understanding, pastors are not accountable
      to the people on how they use the money.

      Although deformed in some aspects, our church does have a democracy
      and it is difficult for priests and Bishops to use public money for
      personal pleasure too openly and to an extended period of time. I
      don't believe our priests and Bishops are innately good – they too
      have elements of human weaknesses.

      There are foxes in all religions- think about the pedophiles in the
      Catholic Church, what about Abhaya case in Kerala, long time ago
      in my teens while in Kerala, there was a widely publicized case of
      milk maid asphyxiation and murder by an Orthodox priest.
      When people learn to disassociate faith from the giver of faith,
      abuse of power will gradually vain.

      I am not against charitable giving, I believe we should be charitable
      individuals because charity brings goodness to human societies and
      boosts another's ability to be successful in life. But it becomes
      our responsibility to navigate our charitable contributions too;
      otherwise, we remain irresponsible givers and sometimes promoters of
      vice.

      Raji Johnson
      Austin,Texas
    • Dr. Omana Mammen, Trivandrum, indianortho
      I fully agree with Ronnie Daniel. Our institutions are already being targetted through single window admissions. Dr. Omana Mammen, Thekkan Parumala St
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
        I fully agree with Ronnie Daniel. Our institutions are already being targetted through single window admissions.

        Dr. Omana Mammen, Thekkan Parumala St Gregorios Orthodox Church, Peroorkada, Trivandrum.
      • Ronnie Daniel, Toronto, indianorthodox@ya
        ... When people give to charity they are not supposed to keep account for it. Also, they should not make the recipients accountable for the money they gave. I
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
          --- In IndianOrthodox@yahoogroups.com, Raji Johnson, Austin, Texas,
          indianorthodox@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          > Unlike established churches like Orthodox, Catholic, Marthoma and
          > other denomination, in my understanding, pastors are not accountable
          > to the people on how they use the money.

          When people give to charity they are not supposed to keep account
          for it. Also, they should not make the recipients accountable for
          the money they gave.

          I think this habit of making others accountable for charity donations
          comes from our attitude "I gave my money" and I have a right to
          know what happened to my money. We think that we are still the owners
          of the money we already gave as charity.
          Bible says that your left hand should not know what your right hand
          gave.
          Therefore, it is sin in my opinion to ask the recipients for account
          of the money whether it is paid to Dinakaran, thanku Brother, Benny
          Hinn or Orthodox Church.
          Most of the the disputes in our church is for ownership and control
          of property. Our people do not want to leave control and ownership of
          the donations they gave to Church.
          This habit comes from our feeling of ownership of money. There are
          people owning Church buildings in our community. There are people who
          act as Directors of Church buildings in their own rights. Man, you
          are inviting trouble for you and your whole generations to come. Are
          you big enough to own or manage a place where God dwells??? You
          deserve the same fate which fell upon the gentiles who kept the
          'Samagamana Koodaram' in their property.

          The best way to tackle this problem is to always think that money and
          all wealth belong to God and it is his pleasure to give it to any one
          he wants. Remember the story about that Master who paid all servants
          the same wages irrespective of the time each one worked.

          If we gave money to Thanku brother or Benny Hinn, it is God who made
          us pay God's money. It is up to the recipients to decide what to do
          with it.
          If they spend it for their luxurious life it is between them and God.
          Not between us and them.

          The way some of us respond to these events unfolding in Kerala, I am
          afraid we are sinners more than them. God has blessed them with
          wealth through his people who had benefited from their sermons. They
          decided to go away from the path of God once they saw the wealth and
          leave it for God to judge them.

          It also says in the Bible "do what they preach, but don't do what
          they do".

          We should not get excited when Thanku brothers worship place is being
          attacked or Bishop Yohannan is searched by Police or when K P
          Yohannan is attacked by media. We sin if we enjoy watching it over
          and over on our tV screens. It is always the negative news which
          sells and the media would everything to make money. They don't care
          about Christianity or any other religions.

          I think we envy their wealth and life style and that is the only
          reason why we enjoy when one of God's servant is being pulled down
          and torn apart by the atheists. We are sinning if we join these
          atheists in judging them. Our God is a God of justice and leave God
          to judge these people. Please stop listening to these negative news
          which abuses Christianity..
          Don't you feel the pain when Christ is being crucified by these news
          channels in Kerala?
          Or do you enjoy when some one attacks the credibility of a God's
          servant?

          Rgds
          Ronnie Daniel
          Toronto, Canada
        • Rev. Fr. George, Ireland, indianorthodox@
          Dear Mr. Ronnie Daniel, You sound like the spokesman of the movements run by Thanku brother and bishop KP Yohannan. Where were you when these men had been
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
            Dear Mr. Ronnie Daniel,

            You sound like the spokesman of the movements run by Thanku brother and bishop KP Yohannan. Where were you when these men had been acting against the apostolic churches in Kerala? They thrived like an ivy at the cost of our poor church. They were trying to misguide the poor believers of our Holy church founded by St. Thomas, the apostle of Christ. They were trying to fish in troubled waters. And they became business magnates instead of becoming spiritual magnets. Their sole intention was to amass as much money as possible by selling spirituality and marketing Christ. You know their strategies better than I do. Our Lord has given us a prophetic warning against such kind of movements through the gospel of St. Mathew 24. Kindly go through the passage thoroughly. You know that very innocent people go after these kind of tricky masters(magicians) because of the jugglery shown by them. And they often end up in jeopardy. Christ our Lord and master has further said: "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When Judgemet Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!'.(Mathew 7:21-23). Please read the biblical passage-Mathew 25:31-46 also and think it over. Please bear in mind that according to Christian values and principles, a servant of God should be accountable and transparent in his service to the church. Please refer Mathew 24 :45, and 25:21 as well. You can learn a lot from the lives of the servants of God like our beloved metropolitans Geevarghese Mar Osthathios and
            Gabriel Mar Gregorios who have set a role model in this regard.
            Hope you will understand me. God bless you!

            With love and prayers,
            Yours in His service,
            George achen,Ireland.
          • Dr. Abraham P. Sam, Kottayam,indianorthod
            Dear Moderators, When the police and media started the campaign against sanyasins didn t you notice how cleverly the marxist party, Hindu fundamentalists and
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
              Dear Moderators,

              When the police and media started the campaign against sanyasins didn't you notice how cleverly the marxist party, Hindu fundamentalists and the media turned it against christian organisations.

              there may be black sheeps in our midst but attacking an organisation with, SNDP, aikya vedi, DYFIetc,taking the law in to their hands is very dangerous.
              We have law of the land, people can go to court or the govt can enquire with vigilance, income tax etc.

              Do not forget the pota incident.

              Do not get happy when these groups are attacked,after them they will come to established churches. Already, single window admission, sree devi commission utterances are all in this direction.

              And the largest group with no definite source of income, spreading across India with medical, engineering colleges and taking the largest capitation fee is not mentioned.

              We the Christians are happy in seeing when other group is attacked.

              Do we have clean hands, when the govt ask you to produce source of income of our pilgrimage center Bhandaram how comfortable we will be?

              We should not help any groups to cause damage or stimulate any anti christian groups to take any Christian group, let it be catholic, protestant or pentecostal or the new groups.Because there are some indications that some church leaders are silently proding to go against groups,only heresay no proofs up to now.

              Remember the panchathantra story where a bird, in order to protect her chicks invited a mongoose to kill the snake which was living at the roots of the tree. After the snake was killed the mongoose climbed the tree and ate the chicks too.
              We must forget the petty differences and try to protect Christians first then other matters kept at abeyance.

              Dr. Abraham P.Sam
              Kottayam
            • Dr. Vinu Thomas, Dubai, indianorthodox@ya
              To begin with I had started hearing about Brothers who started preaching in prayer groups and fellowships. Eventually they became self appointed, self styled
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 7, 2008
                To begin with I had started hearing about 'Brothers' who started
                preaching in prayer groups and fellowships. Eventually they became
                self appointed, self styled or group anointed 'Pastors'. Now Pastors
                abound. They never had breaking of the Bread before (which they
                ridiculed) but now many of the Pastors break bread. They now have
                child baptism, adult baptism, marriage services and funeral services.
                (Of course absolutely no charity beyond their group). They try to
                become parallel institutions to established Apostolic Churches.

                A Pastor who abhored the Cross has now become self appointed Cross
                wearing Bishop to give credentiality and possible authorisation to
                amassed property and wealth.

                Saint John the greatest among those born of women,the Prophet of the
                Highest, preached only one thing, even before Christ began his
                ministry, "Repent,for yea the Kingdom of God is at hand".(Mt 3:2)
                Let alone John the Baptist, even Jesus did not do miracles unless it
                was an absolute need. Jesus said 'Foxes have holes and birds of air
                have nests but Son of Man has no place to lay His head', to a seeking
                disciple.(Mt 8:20)

                But Mr. Benny Hinn, who does everything in the name of Jesus, has his
                own helicopter,ranch,yacht and expensive cars. Thanku brother other
                than the wealth and property amassed, even in the heat of summer,
                preaches with full sleeved shirt and pants and wear branded ties and
                shoes. I saw a picture of his associate in a meeting proudly seated
                cross legged in the podium as though he is an incarnation himself.

                These so called 'healers' and 'miracle workers' make a real mockery
                of true Christianity. Christ has no favourites except the believing
                sinner who has truly, humbly and tearfully repented.

                Blessed Holy Spirit is not a phenomenon anyone can just easily
                capture and utilise for healing and miracles by shouting at the top
                of the voice "Halleluiahs and Praise the Lord" and stimulating
                emotions. This is all just fantasy to which innocent gullible
                faithful fall prey to.

                Edmund Burk has said 'if the good among you remain quiet, the evil
                will abound'. Is it not our duty to expose these Godmen? We are
                indeed not judging them but let us 'help' the wayward faithful to
                truly discern. Let us aid them to know the chaff from the grain. If
                we having known what is true and is not told, will be failing in our
                duty. Galatians 6:9 says,'We should not grow tired of exposing the
                truth to those who are eager to learn the truth'.

                This is also a time of introspection for the real Church and its
                responsible leaders. Let us be not slow in making careful and
                prayerful amends to cater to the real challenges and needs of
                believing faithful in these changing times.

                Dr.Vinu Thomas,
                Dubai.
              • Ronnie Daniel, Toronto, indianorthodox@ya
                Dear and Respected George Achen, Of course, I do understand you and I too have concerns about these groups operating outside the Holy and Apostolic churches.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 7, 2008
                  Dear and Respected George Achen,

                  Of course, I do understand you and I too have concerns about these
                  groups operating outside the Holy and Apostolic churches.
                  But, instead of cursing them, I pray for them that one day God take
                  away their wealth so that they come back to their orignal position of
                  servng the Lord.
                  All these freelance operators, or con operators in your opinion; were
                  members of the Apostolic churches at one point of time and they were
                  duly baptised in to the Holy Apostolic churches.
                  I do not beleive that the Holy spirit dwelled on them at the time of
                  their Holy baptism has gone away from them when they moved to a
                  different form of worship.
                  If they are haunting the Holy Church founded by St. thomas, I do
                  beleive that God has allowed them to do it. If God knows about a hair
                  falling from my scalp, why the same God do not know Thanku Brother of
                  Bishop Yohannan and their operations.
                  I beleive that God allowed these people and the ruling party of
                  Kerala to haunt our Church.
                  It looks similar to the punishment God gave to the Isralites on the
                  hands of the gentiles whenever they rebelled against God.
                  Apostolic churches and its members including me have rebelled agianst
                  God. Obviously, we are paying the price.

                  I think there are people out there in the Apostolic churches too,
                  who are not transparent in their service to church.
                  So, I beleive it is the behaviour of the individuals involved to be
                  condemned; not a particualr pattern of worshipping Christ.

                  Thats all what I meant..

                  With Prayers
                  Ronnie Daniel
                  Toronto, Canada
                • Dr. Abraham P. Sam, Kottayam, indianortho
                  Respected George Achen, With due respects and a prayer that what I am writing should not be be interpretted as any thing it support or against any groups. Read
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 8, 2008
                    Respected George Achen,

                    With due respects and a prayer that what I am writing should not be be interpretted as any thing it support or against any groups.

                    Read the Malayala Manorama of monday and see the fight at Kadamattom. What are these two groups, What difference they have? They are also like these prayer groups only. Only difference is that they separated and started their groups earlier and had all the notions of an established church.
                    Believers church also has all these paraphenalias so what is the problem?

                    Other groups do not have these rituals but most of them have similarity with pentacostal groups.
                    When Martin Luther started the protestant movement it was also a group and the established church tried all methods to finish and destroy it.

                    And what is our established churches duing? Collecting donations from people in and out of kerala, making buildings, colleges and collecting capitations, can it be justified?

                    Recently I am seeing a paper advertisement with a priests photo,for nursing admissions,and another engineering college in perumpudoor is run be reverends, how could they get money?

                    I am not blaming any body, only mentioning that black sheeps are everywhere. Some clergy are permanently posted outside India. And they are economically better off than their counter parts in Vynad or battery, why all of the clergy who have completed 3 years are brought back to India and the less economic brotheren be sent there in rotation?

                    Every human being has a right to worship GOD. And beleivers in Jesus christ are no exception. If only one method is perfect, why so many churches and so many, popes, patriarchs and arch bishops?

                    My writing was only mentioning about the coming dangers to our church and our forefathers did not care for others so, catholics went away, c.m.s. went away, Marthomites went away, now Jacobites went away. Why so many groups went away? Now the danger is to the whole christian church in Kerala, their assets will be targetted and a dewaswam board like thing is being planned to take the financial dealings of all churches.

                    Dr. Abraham P. Sam
                    Kottayam
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