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Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

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  • Arnaud Fournet
    ... From: Paul To: Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch]
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 27, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Paul" <p.manansala@...>
      To: <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:38 PM
      Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies



      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
      <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
      > Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5â?"8,41, suggesting that
      > the
      > ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before
      > mixing
      > with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
      > traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups
      > (P50.0025)5â?"8,41,
      > and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
      > ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
      > relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANIâ?"ASI
      > mixture.
      >


      This does not support ANI. It might weakly support a northern Indian origin
      of caste, but there is plenty of contradictory evidence.

      The study doesn't suggest whether ANI migrated out of India or into India,
      or when this happened.

      ***
      ANI is the same as Europeans,
      clearly showing that there was an influx of European genes in India,
      which remained rather undissolved in Indian upper castes because of stable
      endogamy for generations.

      Moreover this influx seems to be mainly a male influx. The intruding group
      comprised more men than women.
      This is also what the study shows.
      It can be noted that the same conclusion has been reached about the first
      group who moved out of Africa some 60 000 years ago,
      This group had the same unbalance between men and women. Few women and more
      men.

      The study has not yet established when this happened,
      but they seem to allude that this is the next step in their study.

      Best

      Arnaud
      ***
    • Arnaud Fournet
      ... From: JK To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies The
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 27, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: JK
        To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies




        The correct URL is : http://tinyurl.com/yejlprl


        ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in
        ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in
        this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years
        ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers
        here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south
        mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the
        population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the
        population within India.''
        But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population
        ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’, which has been
        reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38,
        although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."


        Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?

        ***

        No

        But this is irrelevant as the newspaper article is a clear and gross
        distortion of the original article in Nature.


        A.

        ***
      • Sunil Bhattacharjya
        There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work by Harvard researchers and their  Indian counterparts in this area , which is very
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 27, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work by Harvard researchers and their  Indian counterparts in this area , which is very revealing.

          --- On Sat, 9/26/09, JK <tiptronicus@...> wrote:

          From: JK <tiptronicus@...>
          Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
          To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:42 PM

           

          According to one of the researchers in the latest study which was published in Nature, the ANI emerged 40,000 years ago. 


          http://tinyurl. com/yejlpr

          ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.'' 

          But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’ , which has been reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38, although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."

          Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?



          On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr> wrote:
           


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: S. Kalyanaraman
          To: undisclosed- recipients
          Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:18 PM
          Subject: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

          Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

          Here are three genetic study reports. Two reports on Indian population
          genetics appeared in Nature of 24 Sept. 2009 and another on the origins of
          Zebu in South Asia in Molecular Biology and Evolution, Sept. 21, 2009. These
          studies throw light on the indigenous evolution of human population and zebu
          cattle in ancient India.

          http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019127/ nature08365 David Reich et al.,
          Reconstructing Indian population history (Nature, Vol. 461, 24 Sept. 2009)
          http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019195/ Aravinda- Chakraborthy_ Comment-on- Reich-et- al_Tracing- India’s-invisible- threads
          Aravinda Chakravarti, Tracing India’s invisible threads (Nature, Vol. 46, 24
          Sept. 2009)

          ***

          Thank you for these references.
          I'm quite amazed that you posted them.
          They actually prove without any doubt that the OIT is completely refuted !

          Excerpts :

          it reflects the fact that different Indian groups have inherited different
          proportions of ancestry from the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI) who are
          related to western Eurasians, and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI).

          Figure 4 is also very clear.

          ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
          Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5–8,41, suggesting that the
          ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before mixing
          with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
          traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups (P50.0025)5–8, 41,
          and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
          ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
          relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANI–ASI
          mixture.

          We have documented a high level of population substructure in India, and
          have shown that the model of mixture between two ancestral populations, ASI
          and ANI, provides an excellent description of
          genetic variation in many Indian groups.

          Best

          Arnaud



        • Paul
          In the Nature article, it also says that there is little evidence of mtDNA gene flow between Europe and India after 50,000 BP. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            In the Nature article, it also says that there is little evidence of mtDNA gene flow between Europe and India after 50,000 BP.

            Regards,
            Paul Kekai Manansala
            Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan
            http://sambali.blogspot.com



            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...> wrote:
            >
            > There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work by Harvard researchers and their  Indian counterparts in this area , which is very revealing.
            >
            > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, JK <tiptronicus@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: JK <tiptronicus@...>
            > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
            > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:42 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > According to one of the researchers in the latest study which was published in Nature, the ANI emerged 40,000 years ago. 
            >
            >
            > http://tinyurl. com/yejlpr
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.'' 
            >
            >
            > But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’ , which has been reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38, although we cannot be certain without a date for ANIâ€"ASI mixture."
            >
            >
            > Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?
            >
            >
            > On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > From: S. Kalyanaraman
            >
            > To: undisclosed- recipients
            >
            > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:18 PM
            >
            > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
            >
            >
            >
            > Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
            >
            >
            >
            > Here are three genetic study reports. Two reports on Indian population
            >
            > genetics appeared in Nature of 24 Sept. 2009 and another on the origins of
            >
            > Zebu in South Asia in Molecular Biology and Evolution, Sept. 21, 2009. These
            >
            > studies throw light on the indigenous evolution of human population and zebu
            >
            > cattle in ancient India.
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019127/ nature08365 David Reich et al.,
            >
            > Reconstructing Indian population history (Nature, Vol. 461, 24 Sept. 2009)
            >
            > http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019195/ Aravinda- Chakraborthy_ Comment-on- Reich-et- al_Tracing- India’s-invisible- threads
            >
            >
            >
            > Aravinda Chakravarti, Tracing India’s invisible threads (Nature, Vol. 46, 24
            >
            > Sept. 2009)
            >
            >
            >
            > ***
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you for these references.
            >
            > I'm quite amazed that you posted them.
            >
            > They actually prove without any doubt that the OIT is completely refuted !
            >
            >
            >
            > Excerpts :
            >
            >
            >
            > it reflects the fact that different Indian groups have inherited different
            >
            > proportions of ancestry from the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI) who are
            >
            > related to western Eurasians, and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI).
            >
            >
            >
            > Figure 4 is also very clear.
            >
            >
            >
            > ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
            >
            > Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5â€"8,41, suggesting that the
            >
            > ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before mixing
            >
            > with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
            >
            > traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups (P50.0025)5â€"8, 41,
            >
            > and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
            >
            > ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
            >
            > relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANIâ€"ASI
            >
            > mixture.
            >
            >
            >
            > We have documented a high level of population substructure in India, and
            >
            > have shown that the model of mixture between two ancestral populations, ASI
            >
            > and ANI, provides an excellent description of
            >
            > genetic variation in many Indian groups.
            >
            >
            >
            > Best
            >
            >
            >
            > Arnaud
            >
          • JK
            According to one of the authors of the paper future research is directed at finding if ANI gave rise to the European population. *http://tinyurl.com/y9ujklc*
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              According to one of the authors of the paper future research is directed at finding if ANI gave rise to the European population.

              http://tinyurl.com/y9ujklc

              ====

              Hyderabad: We often talk and worry about brain drain, where the brightest Indians move out of the sub-continent, generally to the West, seeking better opportunities. However, it may turn out that this is hardly a new trend.

              Geneticists at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad released a study last week which suggested that the Indian population has its origin in migrants from Africa who arrived here 45,000 to 65,000 years ago. The next stage of the study, they say, will explore whether Europe got populated by migrating Indians. This will go against the belief that in ancient times, humans moving from Europe populated India.

              Earlier studies published in 2005 have established that the mega droughts in East Africa had forced the population there to migrate to greener pastures some 75,000 years ago. The migrant Africans are believed to have taken the southern coastal route to reach India. The currently prevailing view is that the original inhabitants of Africa followed a northern route of migration via Middle East, Europe, south-east Asia, Australia and then to India.

              In addition to these findings, CCMB's recent research has shown that today's sub-continental population originated from two groups of ancestors: Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and Ancestral South Indian (ASI). While the ASI entered from the south, the ANI entered India from the northern region.

              "We are now going to answer several key questions going forward," says Dr Lalji Singh, former director of the CCMB and a senior scientist on genetic research."We are always told that people from different parts of the planet migrated into India. But we were never told that people from India, too, had wandered out. The ANI have similarity to Europeans and to Iranians. When you look at the origin of the Indian population, the Onges in the Andaman Islands are dated to about 65,000 years ago, and the European population is dated to 40,000 years ago. So the question of Europeans coming to India does not arise.

              The ANI must have given rise to the European population. We would now like to confirm this," he says.

              Though the scientists now seem to have enough evidence to prove that the Europeans have their origins in India, there are a couple of questions that need to be answered first. There is a possibility that the Europeans had a common ancestor like the ANI. If this is disproved, then it will add strength to the argument that Indians populated Europe.
              Implications for medical research

              According to Singh, some genetic disorders can be treated in a better manner if "what we'll be working on in the next three years gives all the desired results."

              Indeed, more information about the nature of the Indian genome would aid bio-technology research to streamline treatment for genetic disorders that are more prevalent among than Indians in other populations.

              There are two types of genetic disorders. The recessive diseases are those that do not show up in a person though one of the two genes (from the father and mother) has some defect. But a dominant disease shows up if either of the two genes have any defect. So, the recessive disease remains hidden. "The genetic studies of smaller groups, tribes and castes in the country will give us a clear idea on the hidden (recessive) diseases. Similarly, we can look for better treatment for the yet-to-be born child," he said.

              "India was neglected all these years. Scientists in western countries normally study Europe, America and Russia and for them that is the whole world. Any theory they make is based on the findings in these geographies. From our studies they have now realised their blunder. India is a melting pot and I am sure many countries and continents were populated by India. It (our study) is going to rewrite both science and history," Singh said.


              On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...> wrote:
               

              There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work by Harvard researchers and their  Indian counterparts in this area , which is very revealing.

              --- On Sat, 9/26/09, JK <tiptronicus@...> wrote:

              From: JK <tiptronicus@...>
              Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
              To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:42 PM


               

              According to one of the researchers in the latest study which was published in Nature, the ANI emerged 40,000 years ago. 


              http://tinyurl. com/yejlpr

              ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.'' 

              But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’ , which has been reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38, although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."

              Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?



              On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr> wrote:
               


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: S. Kalyanaraman
              To: undisclosed- recipients
              Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:18 PM
              Subject: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

              Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

              Here are three genetic study reports. Two reports on Indian population
              genetics appeared in Nature of 24 Sept. 2009 and another on the origins of
              Zebu in South Asia in Molecular Biology and Evolution, Sept. 21, 2009. These
              studies throw light on the indigenous evolution of human population and zebu
              cattle in ancient India.

              http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019127/ nature08365 David Reich et al.,
              Reconstructing Indian population history (Nature, Vol. 461, 24 Sept. 2009)
              http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019195/ Aravinda- Chakraborthy_ Comment-on- Reich-et- al_Tracing- India’s-invisible- threads
              Aravinda Chakravarti, Tracing India’s invisible threads (Nature, Vol. 46, 24
              Sept. 2009)

              ***

              Thank you for these references.
              I'm quite amazed that you posted them.
              They actually prove without any doubt that the OIT is completely refuted !

              Excerpts :

              it reflects the fact that different Indian groups have inherited different
              proportions of ancestry from the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI) who are
              related to western Eurasians, and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI).

              Figure 4 is also very clear.

              ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
              Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5–8,41, suggesting that the
              ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before mixing
              with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
              traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups (P50.0025)5–8, 41,
              and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
              ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
              relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANI–ASI
              mixture.

              We have documented a high level of population substructure in India, and
              have shown that the model of mixture between two ancestral populations, ASI
              and ANI, provides an excellent description of
              genetic variation in many Indian groups.

              Best

              Arnaud




            • Arnaud Fournet
              ... From: JK To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies According
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: JK
                To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:30 PM
                Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies




                According to one of the authors of the paper future research is directed at
                finding if ANI gave rise to the European population.

                http://tinyurl.com/y9ujklc

                ***

                Hm !?

                As ANI comes from Europe, do we really need future research to answer that
                obvious question ?


                Best

                A.
              • Ram Varmha
                I do not think the reference should be that Europeans entered India or v.v.  What we have heard, as a theory, is that nomads of the Asiatic Steppes split
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I do not think the reference should be that "Europeans" entered India or v.v. 
                  What we have heard, as a theory, is that nomads of the Asiatic Steppes split into two and some wandered to Europe and some to India via Iran. These people were known as IA. 
                   
                  One thing we know as historical, regardless of AIT or OIT, is that many "foreign" invaders came to India in a steady stream from outside India, from the NW regions, for hundred of years. These included Greeks, Romans, Huns, Parthians, Persians, Arabs, Mongols and so on. So, when the researches perform genetic studies on the ANI population will not that study be tainted with the genetics of the later invaders into India from the NW? Surely, when these invaders entered India and established colonies in India, they must have left a significant pool of genetic imprint among the locals. How then will the studies, on genetics of present day ANIs, be able to distinguish between foreign imprints, some of which may or may not have been of European strains? If so that may not mean that the ANIs, who ever they may have been were of European ancestry as such, or v.v. 
                  Ram
                   

                  --- On Mon, 10/5/09, JK <tiptronicus@...> wrote:

                  From: JK <tiptronicus@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
                  To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 4:30 PM

                   
                  According to one of the authors of the paper future research is directed at finding if ANI gave rise to the European population.

                  http://tinyurl. com/y9ujklc

                  ====

                  Hyderabad: We often talk and worry about brain drain, where the brightest Indians move out of the sub-continent, generally to the West, seeking better opportunities. However, it may turn out that this is hardly a new trend.

                  Geneticists at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad released a study last week which suggested that the Indian population has its origin in migrants from Africa who arrived here 45,000 to 65,000 years ago. The next stage of the study, they say, will explore whether Europe got populated by migrating Indians. This will go against the belief that in ancient times, humans moving from Europe populated India.

                  Earlier studies published in 2005 have established that the mega droughts in East Africa had forced the population there to migrate to greener pastures some 75,000 years ago. The migrant Africans are believed to have taken the southern coastal route to reach India. The currently prevailing view is that the original inhabitants of Africa followed a northern route of migration via Middle East, Europe, south-east Asia, Australia and then to India.

                  In addition to these findings, CCMB's recent research has shown that today's sub-continental population originated from two groups of ancestors: Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and Ancestral South Indian (ASI). While the ASI entered from the south, the ANI entered India from the northern region.

                  "We are now going to answer several key questions going forward," says Dr Lalji Singh, former director of the CCMB and a senior scientist on genetic research."We are always told that people from different parts of the planet migrated into India. But we were never told that people from India, too, had wandered out. The ANI have similarity to Europeans and to Iranians. When you look at the origin of the Indian population, the Onges in the Andaman Islands are dated to about 65,000 years ago, and the European population is dated to 40,000 years ago. So the question of Europeans coming to India does not arise.

                  The ANI must have given rise to the European population. We would now like to confirm this," he says.

                  Though the scientists now seem to have enough evidence to prove that the Europeans have their origins in India, there are a couple of questions that need to be answered first. There is a possibility that the Europeans had a common ancestor like the ANI. If this is disproved, then it will add strength to the argument that Indians populated Europe.
                  Implications for medical research

                  According to Singh, some genetic disorders can be treated in a better manner if "what we'll be working on in the next three years gives all the desired results."

                  Indeed, more information about the nature of the Indian genome would aid bio-technology research to streamline treatment for genetic disorders that are more prevalent among than Indians in other populations.

                  There are two types of genetic disorders. The recessive diseases are those that do not show up in a person though one of the two genes (from the father and mother) has some defect. But a dominant disease shows up if either of the two genes have any defect. So, the recessive disease remains hidden. "The genetic studies of smaller groups, tribes and castes in the country will give us a clear idea on the hidden (recessive) diseases. Similarly, we can look for better treatment for the yet-to-be born child," he said.

                  "India was neglected all these years. Scientists in western countries normally study Europe, America and Russia and for them that is the whole world. Any theory they make is based on the findings in these geographies. From our studies they have now realised their blunder. India is a melting pot and I am sure many countries and continents were populated by India. It (our study) is going to rewrite both science and history," Singh said.


                  On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @...> wrote:
                   
                  There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work by Harvard researchers and their  Indian counterparts in this area , which is very revealing.

                  --- On Sat, 9/26/09, JK <tiptronicus@ gmail.com> wrote:

                  From: JK <tiptronicus@ gmail.com>
                  Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
                  To: IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:42 PM


                   
                  According to one of the researchers in the latest study which was published in Nature, the ANI emerged 40,000 years ago. 

                  http://tinyurl. com/yejlpr

                  ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.'' 

                  But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’ , which has been reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38, although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."

                  Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?



                  On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr> wrote:
                   

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: S. Kalyanaraman
                  To: undisclosed- recipients
                  Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:18 PM
                  Subject: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

                  Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

                  Here are three genetic study reports. Two reports on Indian population
                  genetics appeared in Nature of 24 Sept. 2009 and another on the origins of
                  Zebu in South Asia in Molecular Biology and Evolution, Sept. 21, 2009. These
                  studies throw light on the indigenous evolution of human population and zebu
                  cattle in ancient India.

                  http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019127/ nature08365 David Reich et al.,
                  Reconstructing Indian population history (Nature, Vol. 461, 24 Sept. 2009)
                  http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019195/ Aravinda- Chakraborthy_ Comment-on- Reich-et- al_Tracing- India’s-invisible- threads
                  Aravinda Chakravarti, Tracing India’s invisible threads (Nature, Vol. 46, 24
                  Sept. 2009)

                  ***

                  Thank you for these references.
                  I'm quite amazed that you posted them.
                  They actually prove without any doubt that the OIT is completely refuted !

                  Excerpts :

                  it reflects the fact that different Indian groups have inherited different
                  proportions of ancestry from the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI) who are
                  related to western Eurasians, and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI).

                  Figure 4 is also very clear.

                  ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
                  Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5–8,41, suggesting that the
                  ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before mixing
                  with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
                  traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups (P50.0025)5–8, 41,
                  and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
                  ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
                  relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANI–ASI
                  mixture.

                  We have documented a high level of population substructure in India, and
                  have shown that the model of mixture between two ancestral populations, ASI
                  and ANI, provides an excellent description of
                  genetic variation in many Indian groups.

                  Best

                  Arnaud





                • Arnaud Fournet
                  ... From: Ram Varmha To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Ram Varmha
                    To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:43 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies




                    I do not think the reference should be that "Europeans" entered India or
                    v.v.
                    What we have heard, as a theory, is that nomads of the Asiatic Steppes split
                    into two and some wandered to Europe and some to India via Iran. These
                    people were known as IA.

                    One thing we know as historical, regardless of AIT or OIT, is that many
                    "foreign" invaders came to India in a steady stream from outside India, from
                    the NW regions, for hundred of years. These included Greeks, Romans, Huns,
                    Parthians, Persians, Arabs, Mongols and so on. So, when the researches
                    perform genetic studies on the ANI population will not that study be tainted
                    with the genetics of the later invaders into India from the NW? Surely, when
                    these invaders entered India and established colonies in India, they must
                    have left a significant pool of genetic imprint among the locals. How then
                    will the studies, on genetics of present day ANIs, be able to distinguish
                    between foreign imprints, some of which may or may not have been of European
                    strains? If so that may not mean that the ANIs, who ever they may have been
                    were of European ancestry as such, or v.v.
                    Ram

                    ***

                    Logically, these miscellaneous invasions have not the same dating as ANI and
                    they should be identifiable as separate groups, possibly with a sharp
                    unbalance between men and women (more men).
                    In all cases, what the study shows in that there is a very strong endogamic
                    tendency in both ANI and ASI, so we can suppose that the impact of invaders
                    other than ANI is very low.

                    A.






                    --- On Mon, 10/5/09, JK <tiptronicus@...> wrote:


                    From: JK <tiptronicus@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
                    To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 4:30 PM



                    According to one of the authors of the paper future research is directed at
                    finding if ANI gave rise to the European population.

                    http://tinyurl. com/y9ujklc

                    ====

                    Hyderabad: We often talk and worry about brain drain, where the brightest
                    Indians move out of the sub-continent, generally to the West, seeking better
                    opportunities. However, it may turn out that this is hardly a new trend.

                    Geneticists at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad
                    released a study last week which suggested that the Indian population has
                    its origin in migrants from Africa who arrived here 45,000 to 65,000 years
                    ago. The next stage of the study, they say, will explore whether Europe got
                    populated by migrating Indians. This will go against the belief that in
                    ancient times, humans moving from Europe populated India.

                    Earlier studies published in 2005 have established that the mega droughts in
                    East Africa had forced the population there to migrate to greener pastures
                    some 75,000 years ago. The migrant Africans are believed to have taken the
                    southern coastal route to reach India. The currently prevailing view is that
                    the original inhabitants of Africa followed a northern route of migration
                    via Middle East, Europe, south-east Asia, Australia and then to India.

                    In addition to these findings, CCMB's recent research has shown that today's
                    sub-continental population originated from two groups of ancestors:
                    Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and Ancestral South Indian (ASI). While the ASI
                    entered from the south, the ANI entered India from the northern region.

                    "We are now going to answer several key questions going forward," says Dr
                    Lalji Singh, former director of the CCMB and a senior scientist on genetic
                    research."We are always told that people from different parts of the planet
                    migrated into India. But we were never told that people from India, too, had
                    wandered out. The ANI have similarity to Europeans and to Iranians. When you
                    look at the origin of the Indian population, the Onges in the Andaman
                    Islands are dated to about 65,000 years ago, and the European population is
                    dated to 40,000 years ago. So the question of Europeans coming to India does
                    not arise.

                    The ANI must have given rise to the European population. We would now like
                    to confirm this," he says.

                    Though the scientists now seem to have enough evidence to prove that the
                    Europeans have their origins in India, there are a couple of questions that
                    need to be answered first. There is a possibility that the Europeans had a
                    common ancestor like the ANI. If this is disproved, then it will add
                    strength to the argument that Indians populated Europe.
                    Implications for medical research

                    According to Singh, some genetic disorders can be treated in a better manner
                    if "what we'll be working on in the next three years gives all the desired
                    results."

                    Indeed, more information about the nature of the Indian genome would aid
                    bio-technology research to streamline treatment for genetic disorders that
                    are more prevalent among than Indians in other populations.

                    There are two types of genetic disorders. The recessive diseases are those
                    that do not show up in a person though one of the two genes (from the father
                    and mother) has some defect. But a dominant disease shows up if either of
                    the two genes have any defect. So, the recessive disease remains hidden.
                    "The genetic studies of smaller groups, tribes and castes in the country
                    will give us a clear idea on the hidden (recessive) diseases. Similarly, we
                    can look for better treatment for the yet-to-be born child," he said.

                    "India was neglected all these years. Scientists in western countries
                    normally study Europe, America and Russia and for them that is the whole
                    world. Any theory they make is based on the findings in these geographies.
                    From our studies they have now realised their blunder. India is a melting
                    pot and I am sure many countries and continents were populated by India. It
                    (our study) is going to rewrite both science and history," Singh said.



                    On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya
                    @...> wrote:


                    There is an interesting report in the Times of India last week on the work
                    by Harvard researchers and their Indian counterparts in this area , which
                    is very revealing.

                    --- On Sat, 9/26/09, JK <tiptronicus@ gmail.com> wrote:


                    From: JK <tiptronicus@ gmail.com>
                    Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies
                    To: IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:42 PM




                    According to one of the researchers in the latest study which was published
                    in Nature, the ANI emerged 40,000 years ago.


                    http://tinyurl. com/yejlpr



                    ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in
                    ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in
                    this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years
                    ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers
                    here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south
                    mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the
                    population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the
                    population within India.''


                    But in the paper they suggest, "It is tempting to assume that the population
                    ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke ‘Proto-Indo-European’ , which has been
                    reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages38,
                    although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."


                    Did proto-Indo-European exist 40,000 years ago?





                    On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
                    wrote:



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: S. Kalyanaraman
                    To: undisclosed- recipients
                    Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:18 PM
                    Subject: [Ind-Arch] Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

                    Indigenous Indians: genetic studies

                    Here are three genetic study reports. Two reports on Indian population
                    genetics appeared in Nature of 24 Sept. 2009 and another on the origins of
                    Zebu in South Asia in Molecular Biology and Evolution, Sept. 21, 2009. These
                    studies throw light on the indigenous evolution of human population and zebu
                    cattle in ancient India.

                    http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019127/ nature08365 David Reich et al.,
                    Reconstructing Indian population history (Nature, Vol. 461, 24 Sept. 2009)
                    http://www.docstoc. com/docs/ 12019195/ Aravinda- Chakraborthy_ Comment-on-
                    Reich-et- al_Tracing- India’s-invisible- threads
                    Aravinda Chakravarti, Tracing India’s invisible threads (Nature, Vol. 46, 24
                    Sept. 2009)


                    ***

                    Thank you for these references.
                    I'm quite amazed that you posted them.
                    They actually prove without any doubt that the OIT is completely refuted !

                    Excerpts :

                    it reflects the fact that different Indian groups have inherited different
                    proportions of ancestry from the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI) who are
                    related to western Eurasians, and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI).

                    Figure 4 is also very clear.

                    ANI [North Indian] ancestry is significantly higher in Indo-European than
                    Dravidian speakers (P50.013 by a one-sided test)5–8,41, suggesting that the
                    ancestral ASI [South Indian] have spoken a Dravidian language before mixing
                    with the ANI42. We also find significantly more ANI ancestry in
                    traditionally upper than in lower or middle caste groups (P50.0025)5–8, 41,
                    and find that traditional caste level is significantly correlated to ANI
                    ancestry even after controlling for language (P50.0048), suggesting a
                    relationship between the history of caste formation in India and ANI–ASI
                    mixture.

                    We have documented a high level of population substructure in India, and
                    have shown that the model of mixture between two ancestral populations, ASI
                    and ANI, provides an excellent description of
                    genetic variation in many Indian groups.

                    Best

                    Arnaud
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