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Re: [Ind-Arch] Re: Grimm's Law fact or myth: Gessman (1990)

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  • Artur Karp
    ... Temptations. Someone (don t remember who) has already tried to derive the name of Poland s capital from Sanskrit. Warszawa (pronounced as Varshava) --- as
    Message 1 of 29 , May 30, 2008
      At 11:39 2008-05-29, you wrote:
      >What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree with
      >me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym from
      >Sanskrit...


      Temptations.

      Someone (don't remember who) has already tried to derive the name of
      Poland's capital from Sanskrit. Warszawa (pronounced as Varshava) --- as
      "[the city of] rains".

      :)

      Artur K.



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    • mkelkar2003
      ... Udan means water and udar means stomach in Sanskrit. Wa ter (?), n. [AS. waeter; akin to OS. watar, OFries. wetir, weter, LG. & D. water, G. wasser, OHG.
      Message 2 of 29 , May 30, 2008
        --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
        > <frabrig@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
        > Bóbr,
        > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
        > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
        > >
        > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
        > > inference that a river could not have been named (in principle at
        > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
        > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
        > derive
        > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
        > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
        > this
        > > is no big problem for me! :^)
        >
        > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra, Bobr is
        > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the root
        > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
        >
        > >
        > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
        > with
        > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym from
        > > Sanskrit...
        > >
        >
        > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This issue
        > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
        > germanic/english otter.

        Udan means water and udar means stomach in Sanskrit.

        "Wa"ter (?), n. [AS. waeter; akin to OS. watar, OFries. wetir, weter,
        LG. & D. water, G. wasser, OHG. wazzar, Icel. vatn, Sw. vatten, Dan.
        vand, Goth. wat, O. Slav. & Russ. voda, Gr. , Skr. udan water, ud to
        wet, and perhaps to L. unda wave. . Cf. Dropsy, Hydra, Otter, Wet,
        Whisky.]"

        http://everything2.com/title/WATER

        M. Kelkar
        > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can resolve
        > central european language connection to sanskrit.
        >
        > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in Grimm's law
        > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
        >
        > -Shivraj
        >
      • mkelkar2003
        ... http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Language-Europe/ See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for references to udar etc. M. Kelkar
        Message 3 of 29 , May 30, 2008
          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
          > <frabrig@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
          > Bóbr,
          > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
          > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
          > >
          > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
          > > inference that a river could not have been named (in principle at
          > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
          > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
          > derive
          > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
          > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
          > this
          > > is no big problem for me! :^)
          >
          > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra, Bobr is
          > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the root
          > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
          >
          > >
          > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
          > with
          > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym from
          > > Sanskrit...
          > >
          >
          > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This issue
          > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
          > germanic/english otter.
          >
          > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can resolve
          > central european language connection to sanskrit.
          >
          > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in Grimm's law
          > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
          >
          > -Shivraj
          >

          http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Language-Europe/



          See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for
          references to udar etc.

          M. Kelkar
        • shivkhokra
          ... Please be specific in the point you are trying to make. Udar as a word is attested to in vedas with both meanings i.e water and otter. PIE is a
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 6, 2008
            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
            <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
            > > <frabrig@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
            > > Bóbr,
            > > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
            > > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
            > > >
            > > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
            > > > inference that a river could not have been named (in principle at
            > > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
            > > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
            > > derive
            > > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
            > > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
            > > this
            > > > is no big problem for me! :^)
            > >
            > > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra, Bobr is
            > > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the root
            > > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
            > > with
            > > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym from
            > > > Sanskrit...
            > > >
            > >
            > > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This issue
            > > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
            > > germanic/english otter.
            > >
            > > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can resolve
            > > central european language connection to sanskrit.
            > >
            > > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in Grimm's law
            > > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
            > >
            > > -Shivraj
            > >
            >
            > http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Language-Europe/
            >
            >
            >
            > See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for
            > references to udar etc.


            Please be specific in the point you are trying to make. Udar as a
            word is attested to in vedas with both meanings i.e water and otter.
            PIE is a reconstruction i.e a GOOD GUESS. Unless you or anyone can
            find a text which predates sanskrit udra of vedas PIE roots cannot be
            accepted.

            -Shivraj
          • mkelkar2003
            ... ... principle at ... Bobr is ... root ... from ... issue ... resolve ... Grimm s law ... Udan means water in Sanskrit. I am not sure udar
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra"
              <shivkhokra@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
              > <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra"
              <shivkhokra@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
              > > > <frabrig@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
              > > > Bóbr,
              > > > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
              > > > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
              > > > >
              > > > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
              > > > > inference that a river could not have been named (in
              principle at
              > > > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
              > > > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
              > > > derive
              > > > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
              > > > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
              > > > this
              > > > > is no big problem for me! :^)
              > > >
              > > > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra,
              Bobr is
              > > > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the
              root
              > > > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
              > > > with
              > > > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym
              from
              > > > > Sanskrit...
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This
              issue
              > > > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
              > > > germanic/english otter.
              > > >
              > > > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can
              resolve
              > > > central european language connection to sanskrit.
              > > >
              > > > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in
              Grimm's law
              > > > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
              > > >
              > > > -Shivraj
              > > >
              > >
              > > http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Language-Europe/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for
              > > references to udar etc.
              >
              >
              > Please be specific in the point you are trying to make. Udar as a
              > word is attested to in vedas with both meanings i.e water and otter.

              Udan means water in Sanskrit. I am not sure udar does. Can you link
              udan and udar? Udar means stomach which of course is a place to hold
              water. Anyhow, linguistic palaeontology has failed to locate the
              presummed homeland of IE languages.

              M. Kelkar


              > PIE is a reconstruction i.e a GOOD GUESS. Unless you or anyone can
              > find a text which predates sanskrit udra of vedas PIE roots cannot
              be
              > accepted.
              >
              > -Shivraj
              >
            • Ram Varmha
              1.
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 10, 2008
                << Udan means water in Sanskrit. I am not sure udar does. Can you link
                udan and udar? Udar means stomach which of course is a place to hold
                water.  >>
                 
                1.   'ud' is the root for all these words.
                 
                ud = to flow, rise out, spring, to wet.....      See CDSl
                 
                 
                 
                2.   From Sanskrit to English Dictionary by Theodre Benfey:
                 
                udara = ud-ri + a
                ri = shattered, dissolved, consumed
                 
                udan = und + an (same as ud + to move, to go)
                 
                3. << Anyhow, linguistic palaeontology has failed to locate the
                presumed homeland of IE languages. >>
                 
                Perhaps, rephrase it as ....Anyhow, linguistic palaeontology has "not succeeded" (failed) to locate the presumed homeland of IE languages.
                 
                Hope this helps.
                 
                Ram
                 
                 

                mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
                --- In IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com, "shivkhokra"
                <shivkhokra@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com, "mkelkar2003"
                > <swatimkelkar@ > wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com, "shivkhokra"
                <shivkhokra@ >
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@ yahoogroups. com, "Francesco Brighenti"
                > > > <frabrig@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
                > > > Bóbr,
                > > > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
                > > > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
                > > > >
                > > > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
                > > > > inference that a river could not have been named (in
                principle at
                > > > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
                > > > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
                > > > derive
                > > > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
                > > > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
                > > > this
                > > > > is no big problem for me! :^)
                > > >
                > > > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra,
                Bobr is
                > > > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the
                root
                > > > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
                > > > with
                > > > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym
                from
                > > > > Sanskrit...
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This
                issue
                > > > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
                > > > germanic/english otter.
                > > >
                > > > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can
                resolve
                > > > central european language connection to sanskrit.
                > > >
                > > > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in
                Grimm's law
                > > > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
                > > >
                > > > -Shivraj
                > > >
                > >
                > > http://dnghu. org/Indo- European- Language- Europe/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for
                > > references to udar etc.
                >
                >
                > Please be specific in the point you are trying to make. Udar as a
                > word is attested to in vedas with both meanings i.e water and otter.

                Udan means water in Sanskrit. I am not sure udar does. Can you link
                udan and udar? Udar means stomach which of course is a place to hold
                water. Anyhow, linguistic palaeontology has failed to locate the
                presummed homeland of IE languages.

                M. Kelkar

                > PIE is a reconstruction i.e a GOOD GUESS. Unless you or anyone can
                > find a text which predates sanskrit udra of vedas PIE roots cannot
                be
                > accepted.
                >
                > -Shivraj
                >


              • shivkhokra
                ... Please re-read this post: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaArchaeology/message/7067 and look at the verses from Vedas: udra in rigveda means water
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 10, 2008
                  --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
                  <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra"
                  > <shivkhokra@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
                  > > <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra"
                  > <shivkhokra@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
                  > > > > <frabrig@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > And, well, one of the tributaries of the Odra/Oder is named
                  > > > > Bóbr,
                  > > > > > > which means Beaver. Among our rivers we also have the Wieprz
                  > > > > > >([Wild] Hog), the Swina ([Wild] Pig).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected on my
                  > > > > > inference that a river could not have been named (in
                  > principle at
                  > > > > > least) after a term meaning 'otter'. However, it is clear from
                  > > > > > Shivraj's postings that he has been claiming that Oder would
                  > > > > derive
                  > > > > > from Sanskrit udra- 'water' (through a semantic shift water >
                  > > > > > river), not from Sanskrit udra- 'an aquatic animal, otter'. So
                  > > > > this
                  > > > > > is no big problem for me! :^)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You have not been paying attention. The tributary of Odra,
                  > Bobr is
                  > > > > common knowledge this is why we are pointing out udra as the
                  > root
                  > > > > for both the river name and aquatic animal.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > What is really problematic here -- and I think you would agree
                  > > > > with
                  > > > > > me on this point -- is to derive a Central European hydronym
                  > from
                  > > > > > Sanskrit...
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Problematic because it upsets your view of the world? This
                  > issue
                  > > > > is clinched. Sanskrit Udra is the root for udra the river and
                  > > > > germanic/english otter.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now next question is verner's law itself so that we can
                  > resolve
                  > > > > central european language connection to sanskrit.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Since Verner used Sanskrit to resolve discrepancies in
                  > Grimm's law
                  > > > > why would sasnkrit not be the parent language of German?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -Shivraj
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Language-Europe/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > See pages 21 and 26 of PIE vocabulary.pdf in the files section for
                  > > > references to udar etc.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Please be specific in the point you are trying to make. Udar as a
                  > > word is attested to in vedas with both meanings i.e water and otter.
                  >
                  > Udan means water in Sanskrit. I am not sure udar does. Can you link
                  > udan and udar? Udar means stomach which of course is a place to hold
                  > water. Anyhow, linguistic palaeontology has failed to locate the
                  > presummed homeland of IE languages.
                  >

                  Please re-read this post:
                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaArchaeology/message/7067

                  and look at the verses from Vedas:
                  udra in rigveda means water (samudra) (7.49.1)
                  udra in yajurveda means otter (udro) (5.5.20.1)

                  So PIE etymology is rejected because no one can show us a written
                  fragment in PIE which predates Rig and Yajurveda.

                  -Shivraj
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