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Re: Did early man originate in India?

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  • Francesco Brighenti
    ... ... and fossilized remains of Homo erectus from 1.8 to 1.0 million years old have been found in Africa, Georgia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and China. So it is
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 1, 2007
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      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@...>
      wrote:

      > Incidentally Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) is estimated to
      > have lived 3.2 million years ago.

      ... and fossilized remains of Homo erectus from 1.8 to 1.0 million
      years old have been found in Africa, Georgia, Indonesia, Vietnam,
      and China. So it is beyond my comprehension how the finding of some
      50,000 years old bone fossils of Homo erectus in Madhya Pradesh can
      be maintained to give "strong indication to the belief that it was
      India, and not the African continent, where the first man
      originated."

      Is this Dr. Pradyut Gangopadhyay an ASI archaeologist or what?

      Regards,
      Francesco


      > -------------------
      >
      > Did early man originate in India?
      > 30 May, 2007 l 0212 hrs ISTlShishir Arya/TIMES NEWS NETWORK
      >
      > NAGPUR: It may provide new clues to the history of mankind. A
      recent
      > discovery by a city scientist working for the Anthropological
      Survey
      > of India (ASI) has strengthened the theory that the early man
      could
      > have originated in India. It also hints at the possibility that
      > central India might have been the hotbed of human evolution.
      >
      > Dr Pradyut Gangopadhyay, working for ASI's local office, has
      > discovered a part of femur (thigh bone) near Hathlora village in
      > Hoshangabad district of Madhya Pradesh, a part of Narmada valley.
      > Though not dated through scientific means, scientists surmise the
      > bone fossil is not less than 50,000 years old, which can be that
      of
      > homo erectus, the ancestor of the modern man.
      >
      > This is the third major discovery of human remains from the same
      > place, which is termed as middle to later paleosicte stratum and
      > relates to remains at least as old as 50,000 years.
      >
      > In the first discovery, a human scalp of a homo erectus was
      > discovered in 1982 by Dr Arun Sonakia. Later in 1997, a collar
      bone
      > was discovered by Dr A R Sankhayan, after which in December 2006,
      > this fragment of thigh bone was excavated from the same site.
      >
      > "After finishing the requisite formalities, the bone has been
      > recently registered by the ASI here,"said Dr Gangopadhyay, who
      > discovered the fossil. This gives strong indication to the belief
      > that it was India, and not the African continent, where the first
      man
      > originated.
      >
      > The genetic analysis done by the ASI showed that the 'M
      haplo'genetic
      > group of man, which is as old as 80,000 years, is largely found in
      > India. However, there is also a school of thought that this group
      > would have migrated from eastern African continent over one lakh
      > years ago, where it originated.
      >
      > "But, with the findings of this fossil which is almost 50,000
      years
      > old, once again inferences can be drawn that this species first
      > evolved in India, spread to Africa and later came back,"said
      > Gangopadhyay. This is also supported by large inhabitation of M
      haplo
      > group in India.
      >
      > The fossils will later be sent for dating process to find as to
      > exactly how old the remains are. There are chances that carbon
      dating
      > may not work due to the specimen's age, so methods like CT scan,
      > uranium dating and 3D morphological dating may be used. After
      this,
      > the ASI would swing into full-fledged research for finding out
      > further remains,.
      >
      > A picture of the femur was sent to Pennsylvania and Duke
      university
      > in the US, but experts there could not confirm its age and feel
      that
      > the bone can be older than that of homo erectus era.
      >
      > Once the dating is confirmed, excavation will be under taken in
      this
      > area and the team would re-visit the place.
      >
      > "This is indeed an important discovery for the organisation and
      the
      > research would be taken up further,"mentioned the deputy director
      of
      > ASI, Nagpur, Dr M B Sharma.
      >
      > The Narmada Valley has always been an area of interest for
      scientists
      > and investigations began here around two hundred years ago, in
      1833
      > itself. A part of skull was found in 1881, which is today reported
      to
      > be missing from the museum of Asiatic Society in Kolkata.
      >
      >
      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Nagpur/Did_early_man_origin
      a
      > te_in_India/articleshow/2085059.cms
      >
    • Vinod Sangwan
      First of all, age of the thigh bone has not been established by scientific means secondly even if scientist s surmise is correct 50,000 year old bone fits
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 1, 2007
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        First of all, age of the thigh bone has not been established by "scientific means" secondly even if scientist's surmise is correct 50,000 year old bone fits well into 'out of Africa' theory which says man would have gone to India before or around that time.

        -vinod

        On 5/31/07, ymalaiya <ymalaiya@...> wrote:

        Incidentally Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) is estimated to have
        lived 3.2 million years ago.

        Yashwant

        -------------------

        Did early man originate in India?
        30 May, 2007 l 0212 hrs ISTlShishir Arya/TIMES NEWS NETWORK

        NAGPUR: It may provide new clues to the history of mankind. A recent
        discovery by a city scientist working for the Anthropological Survey
        of India (ASI) has strengthened the theory that the early man could
        have originated in India. It also hints at the possibility that
        central India might have been the hotbed of human evolution.

        Dr Pradyut Gangopadhyay, working for ASI's local office, has
        discovered a part of femur (thigh bone) near Hathlora village in
        Hoshangabad district of Madhya Pradesh, a part of Narmada valley.
        Though not dated through scientific means, scientists surmise the
        bone fossil is not less than 50,000 years old, which can be that of
        homo erectus, the ancestor of the modern man.

        This is the third major discovery of human remains from the same
        place, which is termed as middle to later paleosicte stratum and
        relates to remains at least as old as 50,000 years.

        In the first discovery, a human scalp of a homo erectus was
        discovered in 1982 by Dr Arun Sonakia. Later in 1997, a collar bone
        was discovered by Dr A R Sankhayan, after which in December 2006,
        this fragment of thigh bone was excavated from the same site.

        "After finishing the requisite formalities, the bone has been
        recently registered by the ASI here,"said Dr Gangopadhyay, who
        discovered the fossil. This gives strong indication to the belief
        that it was India, and not the African continent, where the first man
        originated.

        The genetic analysis done by the ASI showed that the 'M haplo'genetic
        group of man, which is as old as 80,000 years, is largely found in
        India. However, there is also a school of thought that this group
        would have migrated from eastern African continent over one lakh
        years ago, where it originated.

        "But, with the findings of this fossil which is almost 50,000 years
        old, once again inferences can be drawn that this species first
        evolved in India, spread to Africa and later came back,"said
        Gangopadhyay. This is also supported by large inhabitation of M haplo
        group in India.

        The fossils will later be sent for dating process to find as to
        exactly how old the remains are. There are chances that carbon dating
        may not work due to the specimen's age, so methods like CT scan,
        uranium dating and 3D morphological dating may be used. After this,
        the ASI would swing into full-fledged research for finding out
        further remains,.

        A picture of the femur was sent to Pennsylvania and Duke university
        in the US, but experts there could not confirm its age and feel that
        the bone can be older than that of homo erectus era.

        Once the dating is confirmed, excavation will be under taken in this
        area and the team would re-visit the place.

        "This is indeed an important discovery for the organisation and the
        research would be taken up further,"mentioned the deputy director of
        ASI, Nagpur, Dr M B Sharma.

        The Narmada Valley has always been an area of interest for scientists
        and investigations began here around two hundred years ago, in 1833
        itself. A part of skull was found in 1881, which is today reported to
        be missing from the museum of Asiatic Society in Kolkata.

        http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Nagpur/Did_early_man_origina
        te_in_India/articleshow/2085059.cms


      • Paul Kekai Manansala
        ... The evidence both genetic and fossil clearly point to Africa as the homeland of modern humans. I think it is possible that modern humans intermixed with
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 1, 2007
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          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
          <frabrig@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > Incidentally Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) is estimated to
          > > have lived 3.2 million years ago.
          >
          > ... and fossilized remains of Homo erectus from 1.8 to 1.0 million
          > years old have been found in Africa, Georgia, Indonesia, Vietnam,
          > and China. So it is beyond my comprehension how the finding of some
          > 50,000 years old bone fossils of Homo erectus in Madhya Pradesh can
          > be maintained to give "strong indication to the belief that it was
          > India, and not the African continent, where the first man
          > originated."
          >
          > Is this Dr. Pradyut Gangopadhyay an ASI archaeologist or what?
          >


          The evidence both genetic and fossil clearly point to Africa as the
          homeland of modern humans.

          I think it is possible that modern humans intermixed with Homo erectus
          out of Africa, but the case is still far from established one way or
          another.

          Regards,
          Paul Kekai Manansala
          Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan
          http://sambali.blogspot.com/
        • Carlos Aramayo
          Obviously there was a typo made by the journalist or the editor of the article. Wherever it is written 50,000 it should be read 500,000. The date of 500,000 BP
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 3, 2007
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            Obviously there was a typo made by the journalist or the editor of
            the article. Wherever it is written 50,000 it should be read 500,000.
            The date of 500,000 BP for the femur, or even older, is logic
            because there was found in 1982 another piece nearby in Narmada
            river from 600,000 years old from homo erectus.

            Regards,

            Carlos


            The corrected version should be as follows:

            Did early man originate in India?
            30 May, 2007 l 0212 hrs ISTlShishir Arya/TIMES NEWS NETWORK

            NAGPUR: It may provide new clues to the history of mankind. A
            recent
            discovery by a city scientist working for the Anthropological
            Survey
            of India (ASI) has strengthened the theory that the early man could
            have originated in India. It also hints at the possibility that
            central India might have been the hotbed of human evolution.

            Dr Pradyut Gangopadhyay, working for ASI's local office, has
            discovered a part of femur (thigh bone) near Hathlora village in
            Hoshangabad district of Madhya Pradesh, a part of Narmada valley.
            Though not dated through scientific means, scientists surmise the
            bone fossil is not less than 500,000 years old, which can be that
            of
            homo erectus, the ancestor of the modern man.

            This is the third major discovery of human remains from the same
            place, which is termed as middle to later paleosicte stratum and
            relates to remains at least as old as 500,000 years.

            In the first discovery, a human scalp of a homo erectus was
            discovered in 1982 by Dr Arun Sonakia. Later in 1997, a collar bone
            was discovered by Dr A R Sankhayan, after which in December 2006,
            this fragment of thigh bone was excavated from the same site.

            "After finishing the requisite formalities, the bone has been
            recently registered by the ASI here,"said Dr Gangopadhyay, who
            discovered the fossil. This gives strong indication to the belief
            that it was India, and not the African continent, where the first
            man
            originated.

            The genetic analysis done by the ASI showed that the 'M
            haplo'genetic
            group of man, which is as old as 80,000 years, is largely found in
            India. However, there is also a school of thought that this group
            would have migrated from eastern African continent over one lakh
            years ago, where it originated.

            "But, with the findings of this fossil which is almost 500,000
            years
            old, once again inferences can be drawn that this species first
            evolved in India, spread to Africa and later came back,"said
            Gangopadhyay. This is also supported by large inhabitation of M
            haplo
            group in India.

            The fossils will later be sent for dating process to find as to
            exactly how old the remains are. There are chances that carbon
            dating
            may not work due to the specimen's age, so methods like CT scan,
            uranium dating and 3D morphological dating may be used. After this,
            the ASI would swing into full-fledged research for finding out
            further remains,.

            A picture of the femur was sent to Pennsylvania and Duke university
            in the US, but experts there could not confirm its age and feel
            that
            the bone can be older than that of homo erectus era.

            Once the dating is confirmed, excavation will be under taken in
            this
            area and the team would re-visit the place.

            "This is indeed an important discovery for the organisation and the
            research would be taken up further,"mentioned the deputy director
            of
            ASI, Nagpur, Dr M B Sharma.

            The Narmada Valley has always been an area of interest for
            scientists
            and investigations began here around two hundred years ago, in 1833
            itself. A part of skull was found in 1881, which is today reported
            to
            be missing from the museum of Asiatic Society in Kolkata.



            ------------------
            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@...>
            wrote:
            ...
            > Did early man originate in India?
            > 30 May, 2007 l 0212 hrs ISTlShishir Arya/TIMES NEWS NETWORK
            >
            > NAGPUR: It may provide new clues to the history of mankind. A
            recent
            > discovery by a city scientist working for the Anthropological
            Survey
            > of India (ASI) has strengthened the theory that the early man
            could
            > have originated in India. It also hints at the possibility that
            > central India might have been the hotbed of human evolution.
            >
            > Dr Pradyut Gangopadhyay, working for ASI's local office, has
            > discovered a part of femur (thigh bone) near Hathlora village in
            > Hoshangabad district of Madhya Pradesh, a part of Narmada valley.
            > Though not dated through scientific means, scientists surmise the
            > bone fossil is not less than 50,000 years old, which can be that
            of
            > homo erectus, the ancestor of the modern man.
            >
            > This is the third major discovery of human remains from the same
            > place, which is termed as middle to later paleosicte stratum and
            > relates to remains at least as old as 50,000 years.
            >
            > In the first discovery, a human scalp of a homo erectus was
            > discovered in 1982 by Dr Arun Sonakia. Later in 1997, a collar
            bone
            > was discovered by Dr A R Sankhayan, after which in December 2006,
            > this fragment of thigh bone was excavated from the same site.
            >
            > "After finishing the requisite formalities, the bone has been
            > recently registered by the ASI here,"said Dr Gangopadhyay, who
            > discovered the fossil. This gives strong indication to the belief
            > that it was India, and not the African continent, where the first
            man
            > originated.
            >
            > The genetic analysis done by the ASI showed that the 'M
            haplo'genetic
            > group of man, which is as old as 80,000 years, is largely found in
            > India. However, there is also a school of thought that this group
            > would have migrated from eastern African continent over one lakh
            > years ago, where it originated.
            >
            > "But, with the findings of this fossil which is almost 50,000
            years
            > old, once again inferences can be drawn that this species first
            > evolved in India, spread to Africa and later came back,"said
            > Gangopadhyay. This is also supported by large inhabitation of M
            haplo
            > group in India.
            >
            > The fossils will later be sent for dating process to find as to
            > exactly how old the remains are. There are chances that carbon
            dating
            > may not work due to the specimen's age, so methods like CT scan,
            > uranium dating and 3D morphological dating may be used. After
            this,
            > the ASI would swing into full-fledged research for finding out
            > further remains,.
            >
            > A picture of the femur was sent to Pennsylvania and Duke
            university
            > in the US, but experts there could not confirm its age and feel
            that
            > the bone can be older than that of homo erectus era.
            >
            > Once the dating is confirmed, excavation will be under taken in
            this
            > area and the team would re-visit the place.
            >
            > "This is indeed an important discovery for the organisation and
            the
            > research would be taken up further,"mentioned the deputy director
            of
            > ASI, Nagpur, Dr M B Sharma.
            >
            > The Narmada Valley has always been an area of interest for
            scientists
            > and investigations began here around two hundred years ago, in
            1833
            > itself. A part of skull was found in 1881, which is today reported
            to
            > be missing from the museum of Asiatic Society in Kolkata.
            >
            >
            http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Nagpur/Did_early_man_origin
            a
            > te_in_India/articleshow/2085059.cms
            >
          • Carlos Aramayo
            ... erectus ... or ... Paul, Here is a commentary of Robin Dennel from Sheffield that objects the assumpsion of migration of early Homo Sapiens from Africa:
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 7, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Kekai Manansala"
              <p.manansala@...> wrote:
              >
              ...
              > The evidence both genetic and fossil clearly point to Africa as the
              > homeland of modern humans.
              >
              > I think it is possible that modern humans intermixed with Homo
              erectus
              > out of Africa, but the case is still far from established one way
              or
              > another.
              >

              Paul,

              Here is a commentary of Robin Dennel from Sheffield that objects the
              assumpsion of migration of early Homo Sapiens from Africa:

              "Three problems with suggestions that modern humans
              migrated out of Africa and into South Asia during the late
              Lower and Middle Palaeolithic are not fully addressed: (1)
              their own assessment that the South Asian Middle and
              Upper Palaeolithic were locally derived, (2) the fact that
              in the Levant the late Lower Palaeolithic Yabrudian, the
              Middle Palaeolithic Levallois-Mousterian (used by both
              Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans), and the
              earliest Upper Palaeolithic assemblages are also distinctly
              non-African beyond the level of the techno-complex (see,
              e.g., Marks 1992), and (3) the absence of skeletal evidence
              that anatomically modern humans actually originated in
              Africa. Whilst we know that modern humans were in
              Africa ca. 200,000 years ago, we do not know if they were
              in Southwestern or South Asia at that time. In Southwestern
              Asia the only relevant Middle Pleistocene fossil
              hominin specimen is from Zuttiyeh Cave, Israel, which
              is dated to 164,000  21,000 years ago (Schwarcz, Goldberg,
              and Blackwell 1980) but is probably twice that age
              (Bar-Yosef 1998b:167). As "virtually every opinion possible"
              (Sohn and Wolpoff 1993:335) has been expressed
              about its identity, it is also not particularly diagnostic. In
              South Asia, the only Middle Pleistocene fossil hominin
              specimen is from Narmada. James and Petraglia cite
              Rightmire (2001: 128) as attributing it to H. heidelbergensis,
              but they may have meant Cameron, Patnaik, and
              Sahni (2004). Rightmire in fact cites Kennedy et al.(1991)
              for the identification of the Narmada specimen as H.
              heidelbergensis, but, confusingly, Kennedy et al. concluded
              that the Narmada specimen belonged to an early
              ("archaic") H. sapiens. This latter identification would
              of course greatly strengthen the case that modernity was
              indigenous to South Asia. The more important point
              here is the gap in the South Asian fossil hominin record
              between Narmada and the next youngest, which are the
              Sri Lankan specimens of modern humans at ca. 30,000
              years ago. As James and Petraglia state, we do not know
              which hominin(s) made the South Asian Middle Palaeolithic.
              Until we have hominin skeletal data for ca.
              100,000–250,000 years ago from Southwestern and South
              Asia, we cannot be certain that H. sapiens originated in
              Africa, and, for all we know, Southwestern and South
              Asia 150,000–200,000 years ago may have been teeming
              with anatomically modern humans. The crux of the issue,
              as James and Petraglia recognize, is that we still lack
              indicators of "modern" behaviour that are archaeologically
              visible and unique to H. sapiens. They are probably
              correct in highlighting the importance of local demographic
              factors in making the capacity for 'modern' behaviour
              archaeologically explicit and common, and that
              suggestion offers a useful way forward. What is evident
              is that claims for dispersals of modern humans from Africa
              that are based on inferences from modern genetic
              studies are not confirmed by the Palaeolithic records of
              either Southwestern or South Asia, and we are far from
              being able to integrate the evidence of and claims for
              archaeological, anatomical, and genetic 'modernity'."

              (Page 16 from the scanned version of "Modern Human
              Origins and the Evolution of Behavior in the Later Pleistocene
              Record of South Asia", by Hannah V. A. James and Michael D.
              Petraglia, published in Current Anthropology Volume 46, Supplement,
              December 2005)

              http://tinyurl.com/ho98r

              Best regards,

              Carlos
            • Paul Kekai Manansala
              ... Carlos, I m not sure of the logic of Dennel s arguments. Archaeology is a what we know now field of study, and the earliest Hss are from Africa and only
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos Aramayo"
                <carlosaramayotigres@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Kekai Manansala"
                > <p.manansala@> wrote:
                > >
                > ...
                >

                Carlos, I'm not sure of the logic of Dennel's arguments.

                Archaeology is a "what we know now" field of study, and the earliest
                Hss are from Africa and only much later in India.

                Personally I highly doubt that we would find early Hss developing in
                the Narmada Valley. The available evidence suggests early Hss were
                coastal dwellers and there is a lot of evidence arising suggesting,
                for example, that this is the reason omega fatty acids are key to
                early brain development.

                There is also much evidence to suggest that early shell moundscultures
                were linked to AMHs.

                Regards,
                Paul Kekai Manansala
                Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan
                http://sambali.blogspot.com/
              • Francesco Brighenti
                ... I fully agree on the fact that the available archaeological evidence strongly suggests that the coastal route along the Indian Ocean rim was the one used
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Kekai Manansala"
                  <p.manansala@...> wrote:

                  > Carlos, I'm not sure of the logic of Dennel's arguments.
                  > Archaeology is a "what we know now" field of study, and the
                  > earliest Hss [Homo sapiens sapiens] are from Africa and only much
                  > later in India. Personally I highly doubt that we would find early
                  > Hss developing in the Narmada Valley. The available evidence
                  > suggests early Hss were coastal dwellers...

                  I fully agree on the fact that the available archaeological evidence
                  strongly suggests that the coastal route along the Indian Ocean rim
                  was the one used most frequently by anatomically modern humans
                  migrating from Africa to Australia; yet, there is also some evidence
                  for a "Narmada Crossing" having been used not only by Homo sapiens
                  sapiens en route towards SE Asia, but even by archaic human species
                  such as Homo erectus and Homo heidelbergensis migrating eastwards
                  (or also in a reverse direction).

                  "Evidence suggests that there was a well-established late Later
                  Acheulian South Asian transcontinental Narmada Crossing, from
                  Gujarat (Umrethi, ~190 ka; Kaldevanhalli-I, Karnataka, ~170 ka),
                  following the Narmada River through Madhya Pradesh (sites such as
                  Bhimbetka,; Dharaki-Chattan; Hathnora _heidelbergensis_ site, ~200-
                  300 ka; Maihar) towards its source, and crossing overland to rivers
                  such as the Chambal, Betwas and Son (many sites around ~200 ka) down
                  the Ganges and thence eastward, or, the reverse. There may have been
                  a movement of people and trade in both directions. Better dating of
                  sites is needed to confirm one or the other hypothesis. In either
                  case, whether diffusion or exchange, the major rock art site of
                  Bhimbetka is positioned right at the center of the Narmada
                  Crossing.......... [In the Mid-Middle Paleolithic (~60 to 150 ka)]
                  it appears that we have another case of a Narmada Crossing of India,
                  parallel -- though the database is sparse -- to earlier evident
                  Narmada Crossings of the Later Acheulian and the Final
                  Acheulian........[In the Upper Paleolithic (~20 to 60 ka)] there is
                  obviously strong evidence for use of a Narmada Crossing [by Homo
                  sapiens sapiens], which by this time most probably went both ways"
                  (James B. Harrod, "Periods of Globalization over the 'Southern
                  Route' in Human Evolution," _Mother Tongue_, Issue XI, 2006, pp. 32,
                  39, 49).

                  Hope this is of some help,

                  Francesco
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