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Re: Bourbon in Bhopal: Family with ties to French royals live on (?)

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  • David Salmon
    (renvoi 2) - Il existe dans la Région de Bhopal (Indes) depuis le milieu du XVIme siècle une famille de BOURBON qui a donné entre autres un Général
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 10, 2006
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      "(renvoi 2) - Il existe dans la Région de Bhopal (Indes) depuis le milieu du XVIme siècle une famille de BOURBON qui a donné entre autres un Général (Salvador III de BOURBON vers 1830), un Ministre et Régent de Bhopal (Balthazar de BOURBON vers 1870) et actuellement un Avocat (Balthazar Napoleon de BOURBON) -
      Cette famille descendrait soit 1) de Jean-Philippe de BOURBON-BUSSET (disparu en mer vers 1580), soit 2) d'un fils du Connétable de BOURBON qui, ayant dû s'exiler à la suite d'un duel, fut pris en mer par des pirates puis débarqué en Egypte d'ou il passa en Inde, soit 3) d'un autre fils du Connétable et d'Alaique, Princesse Mongole qui aurait échoué dans la conspiration d'Amboise et serait parti pour l'Inde.
      L'hypothèse la plus vraisemblable est la deuxième."
      Which, freely translated by google from the French, might mean:
      "(reference 2) - There exists in the Area of Bhopal (the Indies) since the medium of XVIme century a family of BOURBON which gave inter alia a General (El Salvador III of BOURBON about 1830), a Minister and Regent of Bhopal (Balthazar of BOURBON about 1870) and currently a Lawyer (Balthazar Napoleon of BOURBON) - This family would go down either 1) from Jean-Philippe of Bourbon-busset (disappeared at sea about 1580), or 2) of a son of the Constable of BOURBON [Charles de BOURBON-MONTPENSIER - Charles III, Duc de BOURBON]which, having had to exile itself following a duel, was taken at sea by pirates then unloaded in Egypt of or it passed to India  that is to say 3) another son of the Constable and Alaique, Mongolian Princesse who would have failed in the conspiracy of Amboise and would have left for India.  The most probable assumption is the second."
      But I did turn up a Jean Philippe de Bourbon, said to be a "naturalny" son, i.e., legitimate?, of Charles de Bourbon-Montpensier, later Charles III, duc de Bourbon (and of the mysterious Mongolian princess, Alaique, and this Jean Philippe evidently had a connection with Bophal and India, though google can't translate this one for me: 
      XX.4 JAN FILIP de Bourbon naturalny syn Karola III ks. de Bourbon i mongolskiej księżniczki Alaique (1525-po 1560). Nie jest pewne czy był on synem Karola III czy też Piotra de Bourbon-Busset. Jego potomkowie (Bourbonowie z Bophalu) żyją w Indiach. Żona siostra władcy Delhi. Dzieci: Saveille
      http://www.marek.and.pl/genea/421bophal.html.  His line includes a BALTHAZAR de Bourbon (1790-1829). 
      However, if Jean Philippe de Bourbon de Navarre de Bhopal was descended either legitimately or illegitimately from the Bourbon line, it seems he may have been presumptuous in tacking on the "de Navarre" addition.  The Bourbon family did not acquire Navarre until 1548, when Antoine de Bourbon married Jeanne d'Albret, Queen of Navarre.   Neither of the two Bourbon lines mentioned above as possible ancestors of Jean Philippe de Bourbon de Navarre was part of the Navarre branch.  The Navarre branch became the royal line of France in 1589 when Henry III of Navarre, son of Antoine and Jeanne d'Albret, became Henry IV of France. 
      The conspiracy of Amboise was in 1560, making an arrival in Delhi by Jean Philippe before 1562 reasonable.  see http://www.bartleby.com/65/am/AmboiseCon.html   Antoine de Bourbon, King of Navarre, did not take part in the conspiracy of Amboise, which was masterminded by his brother, Louis I, duc de Condé.  http://www.answers.com/topic/antoine-de-bourbon .  However, Charles III, duc de Bourbon, had had his estates confiscated in 1527 due to a treason then, not in 1560.  Thus, if Jean Philippe was his legitimate son, he could have had reason to join the 1560 conspiracy.
      The title of duc de Bourbon passed in 1503 to Charles de Bourbon-Montpensier, who was to become famous as constable of France. His later treason led to the confiscation of his lands by the French crown in the year of his death, 1527. Headship of the House of Bourbon then passed to the line of La Marche-Vendôme.  http://www.hfac.uh.edu/gbrown/philosophers/leibniz/BritannicaPages/BourbonHouse/BourbonHouse.html
      In fact, the estates had been purloined somewhat earlier, leading Charles to join with Charles I of Spain (and Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperor), to fight against France, and in that service won a promise from French King Francis I to restore Charles's estates and to marry Charles's sister.  These promises were not fulfilled and his estates were formally confiscated in 1527 upon his death.
      Indeed, this branch of the Bourbon family is said to have expired; Charles de Bourbon-Montpensier is said to have left no legitimate heirs. 
      However, the Bhopal Bourbon family says Jean Philippe was a cousin of Henry IV, which if true means he was not the son of Charles de Bourbon-Montpensier, but of one of the other 13 children (legitimate or illegitimate) of Charles de Bourbon-Vendome.  This would place him close to the Navarre branch, but still not part of it.
      So you can take your choice, it seems: a son, legitimate or illegitimate, of Jean Philippe de Bourbon-Busset, or of Charles de Bourbon-Montpensier, or of Charles de Bourbon-Vendome, or none of the above.  I suppose he might, after all, have been a mere adventurer.
      As for the Napoleon connection, I venture no opinion.  I -would- like to know who was Alaique, the Mongol princess, though.
      David S.
    • Paul Kekai Manansala
      ... like to know who was Alaique, the Mongol princess, though. ... From _The Tale of the Tulsi Plant and Other Stories_ by C. A. (Charles Augustus) Kincaid
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 10, 2006
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        --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, David Salmon <dsalmon@s...>

        > As for the Napoleon connection, I venture no opinion. I -would-
        like to know who was Alaique, the Mongol princess, though.
        > David S.

        From _The Tale of the Tulsi Plant and Other Stories_ by C. A.
        (Charles Augustus) Kincaid (p. 100):

        "In 1560, Prince Jean Philippe Bourbon, a cadet of the house of
        Navarre, fled from France as a result of a fatal duel, and making his
        way from Mardras to Delhi, applied to enter Akbar's srvivce. He was
        received with great distinction, given the title of Nawab, appointed
        governor of the royal harem, and wedded to Julaina Mascarenhas,
        Maria's sister."

        Maria Mascarenhas and her sister were Portuguese ladies captured by
        the Dutch and sold to the Mogul court. Maria became one of Akbar's
        queens and was known as Maria Makany.

        Her sister apparently married Jean Philippe Bourbon.

        On the same page it say:

        "The descendents of Prince Jean Philippe Bourbon are still to be found
        in India. One branch until recently held a jaghir in the Bhopal State,
        and a member of their family some 20 or 30 years held the post of
        Prime Minister of its Nawab. For an account of this family, vide
        Colonel Kincaid's "History of the Bourbons in India" and Roussalat
        makes a mention of them in his "Rajahs des Indes."

        Paul Kekai Manansala
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