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Re: Did Vaastu Shastra further evolve in Harappan Kutch?

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  • Francesco Brighenti
    ... way of thinking. Your hasty reassessment seems naive. At least Steve F. gave you the courtesy of a statement of reasons. Your new- found friend, Dr. K,
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2005
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      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "David Salmon" <dsalmon@s...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I think you do wrong in accusing Dr. Brighenti of "the colonialist
      way of thinking." Your hasty reassessment seems naive. At least
      Steve F. gave you the courtesy of a statement of reasons. Your new-
      found friend, Dr. K, who professes such distress at your treatment,
      was not so considerate in my case, banning me peremptorily without any
      reason given. He, too, "is not so democratic."

      In the last year he also banned the present correspondent, David
      Watson, Laksmi Srinivas -- all of whom are otherwise respected members
      of this List.

      Regards,
      Francesco
    • Francesco Brighenti
      ... in operation peddling the Aryan Invasion Theory in a variety of forms. Aha, veda has to date after 1500 BCE when the aryans arrived in Bharat. It is
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2005
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        --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "S.Kalyanaraman"
        <kalyan97@g...> wrote:

        > Farmer and Francesco get bent out of shape whenever someone states
        > that vedic traditions pre-date Sarasvati civilization (so-called
        > Indus Valley Civilization). > This is only one example of a cartel
        in operation peddling the Aryan Invasion Theory in a variety of
        forms. Aha, veda has to date after 1500 BCE when the 'aryans'
        arrived in Bharat. It is inconceivable for > these eurocentric
        zealots to realise that the word vaastu is Rigvedic > and ante-dates
        3300 BCE.

        Skt. vaastu- means `the site of foundation of a house, site, ground,
        building or dwelling place, habitation, homestead, house' (RV++).

        This word directly derives from PIE *u(e)h2stu `dwelling, home' (see
        Lubotsky' Indo-Aryan database at http://tinyurl.com/clcyw ).

        As is the case with its Toch.A cognate was.t ~ Toch.B ost `house',
        and with its probable Latin cognate Vesta `household goddess', Skt.
        vaastu does not mean `a city'; this is, on the contrary, the meaning
        the PIE word *u(e)h2stu acquired in Greek (astu `city'; cp. Myc.
        Greek wa-tu[-o-ko]).

        Thus, it is correct to state that Vaastu Zaastra roughly
        means `architecture', not `city planning' -- QED.

        Or, is a city defined in Sanskrit as a 'big house'?

        Sorry for this cross-lists exchange. It would have been much better
        if I had been given the possibility to reply to Dr. K. on his by
        now "private" (his own definition), Hindutva-only discussion forum.

        Francesco
      • Carlos Aramayo
        ... of the three great tin barons of Bolivia? ... I see you know of Bolivian History. Things have changed from beginnings of 20th century in my country the
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2005
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          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "David Salmon" <dsalmon@s...>
          wrote:
          >
          > p.s. Are you by any chance related to the Carlos Aramayo who was one
          of the three great "tin barons" of Bolivia?
          >

          I see you know of Bolivian History. Things have changed from beginnings
          of 20th century in my country the baron of tin lost his possetions
          since 1952 with the National Revolution. I leave as a medium class
          citizen since I was born. My father had this last name but the
          conection with the "baron" never was comented in my home, only appears
          sporadically when other people think in the relationship.

          On the other hand I see that in Indian matters the views are very
          dissimilar and fighting of ideas very strong. I hope scholar thinking
          could show proves and personal attacks be dimished whatever the sides.

          Carlos Aramayo
        • Carlos Aramayo
          ... states ... cartel ... dates ... ground, ... (see ... meaning ... Dear readers, Francesco Brighenti in his posts systematically tries to reject and to
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 5, 2005
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            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
            <frabrig@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "S.Kalyanaraman"
            > <kalyan97@g...> wrote:
            >
            > > Farmer and Francesco get bent out of shape whenever someone
            states
            > > that vedic traditions pre-date Sarasvati civilization (so-called
            > > Indus Valley Civilization). > This is only one example of a
            cartel
            > in operation peddling the Aryan Invasion Theory in a variety of
            > forms. Aha, veda has to date after 1500 BCE when the 'aryans'
            > arrived in Bharat. It is inconceivable for > these eurocentric
            > zealots to realise that the word vaastu is Rigvedic > and ante-
            dates
            > 3300 BCE.
            >
            > Skt. vaastu- means `the site of foundation of a house, site,
            ground,
            > building or dwelling place, habitation, homestead, house' (RV++).
            >
            > This word directly derives from PIE *u(e)h2stu `dwelling, home'
            (see
            > Lubotsky' Indo-Aryan database at http://tinyurl.com/clcyw ).
            >
            > As is the case with its Toch.A cognate was.t ~ Toch.B ost `house',
            > and with its probable Latin cognate Vesta `household goddess', Skt.
            > vaastu does not mean `a city'; this is, on the contrary, the
            meaning
            > the PIE word *u(e)h2stu acquired in Greek (astu `city'; cp. Myc.
            > Greek wa-tu[-o-ko]).
            >
            > Thus, it is correct to state that Vaastu Zaastra roughly
            > means `architecture', not `city planning' -- QED.
            >
            > Or, is a city defined in Sanskrit as a 'big house'?
            >
            > Sorry for this cross-lists exchange. It would have been much better
            > if I had been given the possibility to reply to Dr. K. on his by
            > now "private" (his own definition), Hindutva-only discussion forum.
            >
            > Francesco



            Dear readers,

            Francesco Brighenti in his posts systematically tries to reject and
            to ridicule every assertion of Vastu Shastra patterns in Dholavira
            city with PROPAGANDA.

            Though I consider him a friend, sadly he uses a non professional
            attitude. As an example, he emphatically wrote that Vastu Shastra was
            not used in town planning and cited the article of Muktirajsinhji
            Chauhan, National Institute of Design, Ahmedabad. If you check the
            article at:

            http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/Culture/Archit/Vastushastra.html

            that Francesco posted and commented since his message 2253 to
            IndiaArchaeology, you can read there:

            "The Sahstras also deal al lengh with town planning and form of towns
            suitable for different purposes such as administrative towns, hill
            towns, coastal towns or religious towns built at a sacred place."

            Maybe he even didn't read the complete article he posted!
            Best regards,

            Carlos Aramayo
            Historian
            Bolivia
          • vishalsagarwal
            Since you cannot resist the racist temptation of making snide remarks against R S Bisht and Dr Rawat, perhaps you could now give us your assessment of Asko
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 18, 2005
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              Since you cannot resist the racist temptation of making snide remarks
              against R S Bisht and Dr Rawat, perhaps you could now give us your
              assessment of Asko Parpola's paper that I have cited in my previous
              email.

              If one accepts your mode of argumentation, the entire field of
              historical linguistics comes into the realm of pseudo-science.

              Vishal

              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
              <frabrig@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos Aramayo"
              > <carlosaramayotigres@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > I know you are eager to see a prove of Vastu Shastra-like
              patterns
              > in > sites after Harappan times and before 7th century AD. As
              > examples I > can tell you about Kosambi and Pataliputra. Of course
              > as already > mentioned, you can not expect a linear development
              > through time but > the "spirit", I mean principles continued but
              not
              > the "exact" forms.
              >
              > It is not clear to me as to how this alleged Vastuvidya "spirit"
              > could have survived the gap between the first (Harappan) and second
              > (slightly earlier or coterminus with the advent of the Achaemenid
              > rule in Gandhara) urban eras in northwestern S. Asia (roughly: one
              > thousand years). But it is the very postulate which is at the root
              > of your wishful thoughts -- namely, that the Vedic Vastuvidya, and
              > the Vastupurusha Mandala in particular, were used as instruments of
              > city planning -- that is wrong. The Vastupurusha Mandala was used
              > ritually for the construction of sacred buildings, or even of
              entire
              > temple complexes, but not of full cities. I don't see how Harappans
              > cities, or even the cities of the second, Indo-Gangetic urban era,
              > could have been planned since before their foundation and
              > development by resorting to a Vedic ritual science that, besides
              > becoming fully elaborated only in the post-Gupta epoch (earliest
              > Vastu Shastra texts), was typically associated with building
              > planning, not with city planning.
              >
              > > On the other hand you can see the Vastupurusha Mandala picture at:
              > >
              > > http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/vastu-shastra.html
              > >
              > > Compare it with digital reconstruction of Dholavira at:
              > >
              > > http://pubweb.cc.u-tokai.ac.jp/indus/english/2_4_03.html
              >
              > The streets of many towns in all epochs and all locations of the
              > Ancient World were laid out on a sqare grid-plan:
              >
              > http://www.bostoncoop.net/~tpryor/wiki/index.php?title=Grid_plan
              >
              > > About early literary evidence you want, Dholavira represents
              > Rigvedic > Trimeshthim system in its development.
              >
              > This is an already five-year old idea of Dholavira's excavator R.S.
              > Bisht:
              >
              > http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001/1-2/2001-1-16.shtml
              > "By the end of what is known as 'stage four', the town was at its
              > peak, and according to Bisht, divided with the Rig Veda's
              > trimeshthin system of town planning into three areas, upper, middle
              > and lower. The innermost building is a 'citadel' where Bisht
              > believes the ruler lived, the middle town had spacious houses, and
              > the lower town had densely packed houses. All the expansion to this
              > point was carried out along systematic lines."
              >
              > Indeed, Y.S. Rawat, the ASI archaeologist whose interview
              > on "Dholavira built according to the prescriptions of the Vastu
              > Shastra" gave the start (originally on the Indo-Eurasia_research
              > List) to this discussion, has worked in Dholavira along with the
              > then project director Mr. Bisht.
              >
              > In conclusion, the two leading ASI archaeologists who have worked
              in
              > Dholavira belong to the world-recognized, definitely objective and
              > totally apolitical "Vedic Harappa" school of thought... ;^D
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Francesco
              >
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