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[Ind-Arch] Re: Harahvati/ Sarasvati

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  • adhin88
    ... I know, David, that the change of s h is more widespread. But I was referring here to the peculiar Visarga sound hinted by the word Aghosh.a, appearing
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2005
      > I don't understand what you mean here. In what context do
      > you mean to say that the change of 's' to 'h' is peculiar?
      > It's not an uncommon change in languages worldwide.

      I know, David, that the change of s > h is more widespread. But I was
      referring here to the peculiar Visarga sound hinted by the word
      Aghosh.a, appearing for instance in Sandhi (dus + kha > duhkha,
      (internal Sandhi) and final positions Purûravas > Purûravah.

      > Is there any idea as to which modern river this Harasvatyah
      > might correspond?

      I have no hard clue, David. By the way, it is not at all improbable
      that the area Harauvati.sh mentioned in Persian inscriptions, is
      named after a river by that name itself; the only problem is that, as
      far as I know (but I stand corrected on this) none of the rivers
      themselves in that area are remembered by that name.
      Harasvatya is younger (unheard of in Vedic Shruti works, but still
      earlier attested than the OP Harauvati.sh) than Sarasvatya. It is not
      improbable that it is a later form of the word Sarasvatya itself, and
      that it also may be a name transferred to another river(ine area).

      regards,
      ishwa

      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Allan Speedy <allan@s...>
      wrote:
      > Of course the classic example of the constanant change from 'S'
      to 'H'
      > is the word Soma which is Homa in Iranian.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: david_russell_watson [mailto:liberty@p...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:37 PM
      > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: Harahvati/ Sarasvati
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88" <adhin88@h...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Actually, the s > h does occur in Inner India (east of the Indus),
      >
      > Yes, of course you are correct, and which is why I wrote:
      >
      > > > It's meaningless to speak of 's' changing to 'h' without
      > > > giving the context.
      >
      > However I wasn't clear in what followed, because I didn't
      > give the context myself for the change I was describing
      > when I wrote:
      >
      > > > What has been observed is that Proto-Indo-Iranian *s became
      > > > 'h' in _specific_ phonetic contexts, and in _Iranian_ only.
      That
      > > > change did not apply to the Indo-Aryan (Indian) branch of Indo-
      > > > Iranian.
      >
      > I had in mind the immediately resulting Proto-Iranian and
      > Proto-Indo-Aryan only. Proto-Indo-Aryan isn't supposed to
      > have yet undergone the sort of changes you describe below
      > for the Prakrits, except for possibly the change of word
      > final *s to visarga.
      >
      > > even upto to the Apabhramsha phase of Prakrit formation: sh.odasha
      > > > sodasa > solaha (similarly bâraha, teraha, pandraha, satraha,
      > > at.th.âraha). Same case with Haryana from Sharyanavat. (somehow
      > > the s > h-like Aghosh.a sound in Sandhis and for instance in the
      > > nominal case: Purûravas > Purûravah. This case of s > h is very
      > > peculiar, not to say exclusive, to Sanskrit)
      >
      > I don't understand what you mean here. In what context do
      > you mean to say that the change of 's' to 'h' is peculiar?
      > It's not an uncommon change in languages worldwide.
      >
      > > If I a not wrong, Yâska's Nirukta (containing the ancient
      > > Nighan.t.u), which also referring to a feature of the Kamboji
      > speech
      > > of the NW similar to Iranian (Shava-ti, instead of cyava-te of the
      > > Puru-Vedic, epic has cyavati. Pân.ini also mentions the Dhâtu
      > > shu/shav = cl. 1. P. to go Dhâtup. xvii, 76 (cf. Naigh.ii, 14);
      to
      > > alter, change, transform Dhâtup. ib, which survives in the words
      > > shávas, shava, shavya) does mention a river named Harasvatya.
      Maybe
      > > this was also a case of s > h in (N)W India. At least both
      > Sarasvati
      > > and Harasvatya are names of rivers.
      >
      > Well this is very interesting. I've never heard of this
      > Harasvatya before.
      >
      > > This same Harasvatya is also mentioned as a great motherly river
      > > (name) in the Atharvaveda Parishish.t.a, along with generic names
      > > for rivers, in this series: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh,
      urvyah,
      > > irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah,
      ajirâh
      > > mâtarah nadînÃm. (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)
      >
      > Is there any idea as to which modern river this Harasvatyah
      > might correspond?
      >
      > David
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
    • adhin88
      Thus: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah nadînÃm. (AVParish. 48
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 2, 2005
        Thus: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah, pârvatyah,
        ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah nadînÃm.
        (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)

        After looking at the next, it would seem that the word Harasvatî and
        its derivative Harasvatya is not identical with the word Sarasvatî
        in meaning, (or perhaps eventually not with that river?):

        háras-vat (háras-)mfn. seizing (or "fiery") RV. ii, 23, 6; f. (pl.)
        rivers(?) Naigh. i, 13
        háras: n. a grasp, grip AV.; a draught, drink, beverage RV. AV

        If the Harasvatya is a name of a motherly river different from the
        Sarasvatya, it would be interesting to locate this river. And also
        to find out the relation between Sarasvatî, Harasvatî (pre-Yâska's
        Nirukta as river, which work is conservatively dated at 700 BC at
        the latest), Haraqaiti (Younger Avesta) and Harauvati (ca. 5th
        century BC).

        Note: The reference in RV II.23.6 does not seem to be referring to a
        river, that sense is appearing from the tradition as mentioned in
        the Nighan.t.u. and AV Par.
        Háras has the same initial Vedic accent as sáras.



        regards,
        Ishwa

        --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88" <adhin88@h...>
        wrote:
        >
        > > I don't understand what you mean here. In what context do
        > > you mean to say that the change of 's' to 'h' is peculiar?
        > > It's not an uncommon change in languages worldwide.
        >
        > I know, David, that the change of s > h is more widespread. But I
        was
        > referring here to the peculiar Visarga sound hinted by the word
        > Aghosh.a, appearing for instance in Sandhi (dus + kha > duhkha,
        > (internal Sandhi) and final positions Purûravas > Purûravah.
        >
        > > Is there any idea as to which modern river this Harasvatyah
        > > might correspond?
        >
        > I have no hard clue, David. By the way, it is not at all
        improbable
        > that the area Harauvati.sh mentioned in Persian inscriptions, is
        > named after a river by that name itself; the only problem is that,
        as
        > far as I know (but I stand corrected on this) none of the rivers
        > themselves in that area are remembered by that name.
        > Harasvatya is younger (unheard of in Vedic Shruti works, but still
        > earlier attested than the OP Harauvati.sh) than Sarasvatya. It is
        not
        > improbable that it is a later form of the word Sarasvatya itself,
        and
        > that it also may be a name transferred to another river(ine area).
        >
        > regards,
        > ishwa
        >
        > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Allan Speedy <allan@s...>
        > wrote:
        > > Of course the classic example of the constanant change from 'S'
        > to 'H'
        > > is the word Soma which is Homa in Iranian.
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: david_russell_watson [mailto:liberty@p...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:37 PM
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: Harahvati/ Sarasvati
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88"
        <adhin88@h...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Actually, the s > h does occur in Inner India (east of the
        Indus),
        > >
        > > Yes, of course you are correct, and which is why I wrote:
        > >
        > > > > It's meaningless to speak of 's' changing to 'h' without
        > > > > giving the context.
        > >
        > > However I wasn't clear in what followed, because I didn't
        > > give the context myself for the change I was describing
        > > when I wrote:
        > >
        > > > > What has been observed is that Proto-Indo-Iranian *s became
        > > > > 'h' in _specific_ phonetic contexts, and in _Iranian_ only.
        > That
        > > > > change did not apply to the Indo-Aryan (Indian) branch of
        Indo-
        > > > > Iranian.
        > >
        > > I had in mind the immediately resulting Proto-Iranian and
        > > Proto-Indo-Aryan only. Proto-Indo-Aryan isn't supposed to
        > > have yet undergone the sort of changes you describe below
        > > for the Prakrits, except for possibly the change of word
        > > final *s to visarga.
        > >
        > > > even upto to the Apabhramsha phase of Prakrit formation:
        sh.odasha
        > > > > sodasa > solaha (similarly bâraha, teraha, pandraha, satraha,
        > > > at.th.âraha). Same case with Haryana from Sharyanavat. (somehow
        > > > the s > h-like Aghosh.a sound in Sandhis and for instance in
        the
        > > > nominal case: Purûravas > Purûravah. This case of s > h is
        very
        > > > peculiar, not to say exclusive, to Sanskrit)
        > >
        > > I don't understand what you mean here. In what context do
        > > you mean to say that the change of 's' to 'h' is peculiar?
        > > It's not an uncommon change in languages worldwide.
        > >
        > > > If I a not wrong, Yâska's Nirukta (containing the ancient
        > > > Nighan.t.u), which also referring to a feature of the Kamboji
        > > speech
        > > > of the NW similar to Iranian (Shava-ti, instead of cyava-te of
        the
        > > > Puru-Vedic, epic has cyavati. Pân.ini also mentions the Dhâtu
        > > > shu/shav = cl. 1. P. to go Dhâtup. xvii, 76 (cf. Naigh.ii,
        14);
        > to
        > > > alter, change, transform Dhâtup. ib, which survives in the
        words
        > > > shávas, shava, shavya) does mention a river named Harasvatya.
        > Maybe
        > > > this was also a case of s > h in (N)W India. At least both
        > > Sarasvati
        > > > and Harasvatya are names of rivers.
        > >
        > > Well this is very interesting. I've never heard of this
        > > Harasvatya before.
        > >
        > > > This same Harasvatya is also mentioned as a great motherly
        river
        > > > (name) in the Atharvaveda Parishish.t.a, along with generic
        names
        > > > for rivers, in this series: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh,
        > urvyah,
        > > > irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah,
        > ajirâh
        > > > mâtarah nadînÃm. (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)
        > >
        > > Is there any idea as to which modern river this Harasvatyah
        > > might correspond?
        > >
        > > David
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      • S.Kalyanaraman
        ... wrote: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah nadînÃm.
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2005
          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88" <adhin88@h...>
          wrote:> " .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah,
          pârvatyah, > ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah
          nadînÃm." > (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)
          >
          > After looking at the next, it would seem that the word Harasvatî
          and > its derivative Harasvatya is not identical with the word
          Sarasvatî > in meaning, (or perhaps eventually not with that river?):
          >
          > háras-vat (háras-)mfn. seizing (or "fiery") RV. ii, 23, 6; f. (pl.)
          > rivers(?) Naigh. i, 13> háras: n. a grasp, grip AV.; a draught,
          drink, beverage RV. AV
          >
          > If the Harasvatya is a name of a motherly river different from the
          > Sarasvatya, it would be interesting to locate this river. And also
          > to find out the relation between Sarasvatî, Harasvatî (pre-Yâska's
          > Nirukta as river, which work is conservatively dated at 700 BC at
          > the latest), Haraqaiti (Younger Avesta) and Harauvati (ca. 5th
          > century BC).
          >
          > Note: The reference in RV II.23.6 does not seem to be referring to
          a > river, that sense is appearing from the tradition as mentioned in
          > the Nighan.t.u. and AV Par. > Háras has the same initial Vedic
          accent as sáras.

          Thanks, Ishwa, for the fascinating reference to RV 2.23.6 which uses
          the term, 'harasvati_'.

          Tvam no gopa_h pathikr.d vicaks.an.as tava vrata_ya matibhir jara_mahe
          Br.haspate yo no abhi hvaro dadhe sva_ tam marmartu ducchuna_
          harasvati_

          2.023.06 You, Br.haspati, are our protector and the guide of (our)
          path; (you are) the discerner (of all things); we worship with
          praises for your adoration; may his own precipitate malice involve
          him (in destruction) who practises deceit against us.

          r.s.i: gr.tsamada (a_n:girasa s'aunahotra pas'ca_d) bha_rgava
          s'aunaka; devata_: br.haspati, 1-5,9,11,17,19 brahman.aspati; chanda:
          jagati_, 15,19 tris.t.up; Anuva_ka III

          The r.ca 2.23.6 is addressed to Brahman.aspati. The r.s.i is
          gr.tsamada, yes, the same r.s.i who in another r.ca notes in a r.ca
          addressed to sarasvati_ (di_rgha):

          Ambitame nadi tame devi tame sarasvati
          Apras'asta_ iva smasi pras'astim amba nas kr.dhi

          2.041.16 Sarasvati, best of mothers, best of rivers, best of
          goddesses, we are, as it were, of no repute; grant us, mother,
          distinction. [ambitame, nadi_tame, devitame: the superlatives of
          ambika_, a mother, nadi_ , a river and devi_, a goddess].

          Yes, the r.ca RV 2.23.6 which refers to harasvati_ does NOT seem to
          have any contextual reference to a river; if at all, the meaning can
          be related to a seizer or deceiver (feminine!) -- harasvati_

          It is also interesting that a r.s.i Gr.tsamada who refers to river
          Sarasvati (no di_rgha) in RV 2.41.6 refers to a harasvati_ (f.) as
          malice or seizure. Who knows what the meaning of this term,
          harasvati_ was as used by the kavi? The r.ca contextually seems to
          interpret it as deceit.

          Dhanyavaadah.

          K.
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