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Re: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

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  • shobhan ganji
    Loganthan, you need to explain why Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE. The
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 2, 2013
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      Loganthan, you need to explain why Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE. The Satapatha brahmana statement that pleiades never serve in the east. As per your theory Sanskrit came from SumerTamil . Furuther you state that Rigkrit came before Sanskrit and it is the language of Rigveda. Such far fetched theories need to be validated before you claim that Sumer is ArchaicTamil.


      From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...>
      To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 11:10 PM
      Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

       


      Friends

      With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.

      See
      http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html

      I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.

      Loga


    • Lalit Mishra
        What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it s saraswati)  in tamil
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 3, 2013
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        What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out".
         
        What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ?
         
        So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that.
         
        Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
         
        Regards,
        Lalit Mishra
         
         

        From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...>
        To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM
        Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
         


        Friends

        With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.

        See
        http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html

        I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.

        Loga
      • Francesco Brighenti
        ... First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world s oldest language still spoken today on the
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 3, 2013
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          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

          > Friends
          >
          > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
          > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
          > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
          > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
          > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
          > of Indus as many have pointed out.
          >
          > See
          >
          > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
          >
          > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
          >
          > Loga


          First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?

          See at

          http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html

          Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?

          FB
        • K. Loganathan
          FB Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at least someone who has
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 3, 2013
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            FB

            Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at least someone who has been following the controversies regarding Tamil Sumerian Sk and so forth

            Loga


            From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
            To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:22 AM
            Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

             


            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

            > Friends
            >
            > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
            > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
            > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
            > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
            > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
            > of Indus as many have pointed out.
            >
            > See
            >
            > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
            >
            > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
            >
            > Loga

            First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?

            See at

            http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html

            Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?

            FB



          • cjyothibabu
            Dear Lalit Mishraji Lalit Mishraji wrote: So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
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              Dear Lalit Mishraji
              Lalit Mishraji wrote:
              So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.

              Jyothi: I request you to stick to your above observation.
              Next to your post is the post by Shobhan Ganji stating that "Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE".
              I have read people making claims that Vedas mention and describe Saraswati River and therefore Vedas are as old as Saraswati River. I have read people quoting astronomical events to claim that Vedas are as old as those astronomical events.
              Will you at least now agree that such claims are not valid?
              Will you accept that Vedic seers were poets and wise persons who have undergone education, that they have gathered information and knowledge regarding past and their own present, that they have tried to acquire and have acquired knowledge from various societies and cultures near and far.
              Will you therefore kindly refrain from claiming that Vedas were written when the events described in them has occurred and also refrain from claiming that the events described in them pertain to their own society, because as you have said above it is "Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made".

              Best wishes
              -Jyoti



              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Lalit Mishra <litsol@...> wrote:
              >
              >  
              > What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out".
              >  
              > What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ?
              >  
              > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that.
              >  
              > Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
              >  
              > Regards,
              > Lalit Mishra
              >  
              >  
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...>
              > To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM
              > Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Friends
              >
              > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.
              >
              > See
              > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
              >
              >
              > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
              >
              > Loga
              >
            • Lalit Mishra
              Loga,   Pls read this book, particularly pages 250- 394, There is something that you might have missed knowing while pursuing Sumerian-Tamil study.    
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
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                Loga,
                 
                Pls read this book, particularly pages 250- 394, There is something that you might have missed knowing while pursuing Sumerian-Tamil study.
                 
                 
                 
                Happy Reading,
                Lalit Mishra

                From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:52 PM
                Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                 


                --- In mailto:IndiaArchaeology%40yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                > Friends
                >
                > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
                > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                >
                > See
                >
                > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                >
                > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                >
                > Loga

                First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?

                See at

                http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html

                Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?

                FB

              • Sunil Bhattacharjya
                Dear friends, The url :
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 6, 2013
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                  Dear friends,

                  The url :

                  <http://books.google.co.in/books?id=jbjT9GG__nEC&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=rigveda+6.26&source=bl&ots=YDBs6eMLeo&sig=dCQy95yVPLjmuHSBAMY9mJqPNZM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a95dUYayM8vqrQfN9IE4&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false"

                  is for the book "India: From Indus Valley Civlization to Mauryas" by  By Gyan Swarup Gupta. This book says in page 286, as follows :

                   "Maurya dynasty was overturned by about 185 BCE"

                  This is a clear indication that this book is tainted by the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) and the AIT - time-line. So please beware of what the author has put in this book.

                  Regards,
                  Sunil KB


                  From: Lalit Mishra <litsol@...>
                  To: "IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:51 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

                   
                  Loga,
                   
                  Pls read this book, particularly pages 250- 394, There is something that you might have missed knowing while pursuing Sumerian-Tamil study.
                   
                   
                   
                  Happy Reading,
                  Lalit Mishra

                  From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                  To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:52 PM
                  Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                   


                  --- In mailto:IndiaArchaeology%40yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                  > Friends
                  >
                  > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
                  > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                  > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                  > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                  > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                  > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                  >
                  > See
                  >
                  > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                  >
                  > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                  >
                  > Loga

                  First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?

                  See at

                  http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html

                  Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?

                  FB



                • Francesco Brighenti
                  ... Alternatively, one might suspect she s a screwup, given that she writes: In fact there is a possibility that Tamil was the root of Sanskrit, in turn the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 6, 2013
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                    --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                    > FB
                    >
                    > Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more
                    > about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at
                    > least someone who has been following the controversies regarding
                    > Tamil Sumerian Sk and so forth

                    Alternatively, one might suspect she's a screwup, given that she writes:

                    "In fact there is a possibility that Tamil was the root of Sanskrit, in turn the root of all Indo European languages."

                    FB



                    ________________________________
                    > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                    > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:22 AM
                    > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Friends
                    > >
                    > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
                    > > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                    > > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                    > > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                    > > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                    > > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                    > >
                    > > See
                    > >
                    > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                    > >
                    > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                    > >
                    > > Loga
                    >
                    > First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?
                    >
                    > See at
                    >
                    > http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html
                    >
                    > Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?
                    >
                    > FB
                    >
                  • shobhan ganji
                    It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 8, 2013
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                      It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense. 
                      It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind.


                      From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...>
                      To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

                       
                      Dear Lalit Mishraji
                      Lalit Mishraji wrote:
                      So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.

                      Jyothi: I request you to stick to your above observation.
                      Next to your post is the post by Shobhan Ganji stating that "Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE".
                      I have read people making claims that Vedas mention and describe Saraswati River and therefore Vedas are as old as Saraswati River. I have read people quoting astronomical events to claim that Vedas are as old as those astronomical events.
                      Will you at least now agree that such claims are not valid?
                      Will you accept that Vedic seers were poets and wise persons who have undergone education, that they have gathered information and knowledge regarding past and their own present, that they have tried to acquire and have acquired knowledge from various societies and cultures near and far.
                      Will you therefore kindly refrain from claiming that Vedas were written when the events described in them has occurred and also refrain from claiming that the events described in them pertain to their own society, because as you have said above it is "Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made".

                      Best wishes
                      -Jyoti

                      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Lalit Mishra <litsol@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >  
                      > What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out".
                      >  
                      > What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ?
                      >  
                      > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that.
                      >  
                      > Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
                      >  
                      > Regards,
                      > Lalit Mishra
                      >  
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...>
                      > To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM
                      > Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Friends
                      >
                      > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.
                      >
                      > See
                      > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                      >
                      >
                      > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                      >
                      > Loga
                      >



                    • K. Loganathan
                      FB Now I am interacting with many Tamil scholars some of whom are also well versed in Sk and many other Indian and European languages. There is considerable
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 14, 2013
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                        FB

                        Now I am interacting with many Tamil scholars some of whom are also well versed in Sk and many other Indian and European languages. There is considerable support for my claims that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and that Sk is another variant of this language. Many scholars are also tracing the roots of many words in European languages to Tamil (though not yet to SumeruTamil) However the good news is that there are some universities now in TN who may begin intensive studies on all these matters so that we will begin to have academically very sound research papers produced  on these matters.

                        I am sure my views as well as that of Ms Flora Pulman will be quite well established on very sound linguistic grounds. The reason is at the moment the whole of Constructive Historical Linguistics of Protforms is suspect and the inclusion of Sk as Indo-European and so forth is based on that.

                        Loga


                        From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                        To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:56 PM
                        Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

                         


                        --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                        > FB
                        >
                        > Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more
                        > about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at
                        > least someone who has been following the controversies regarding
                        > Tamil Sumerian Sk and so forth

                        Alternatively, one might suspect she's a screwup, given that she writes:

                        "In fact there is a possibility that Tamil was the root of Sanskrit, in turn the root of all Indo European languages."

                        FB

                        ________________________________
                        > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                        > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:22 AM
                        > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Friends
                        > >
                        > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the
                        > > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                        > > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                        > > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                        > > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                        > > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                        > >
                        > > See
                        > >
                        > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                        > >
                        > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                        > >
                        > > Loga
                        >
                        > First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?
                        >
                        > See at
                        >
                        > http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html
                        >
                        > Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?
                        >
                        > FB
                        >



                      • Arnaud
                        ... *** Is there not a glaring contradiction between claiming your claims have considerable [sic] support [sic] among scholars [sic] and some universities
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 21, 2013
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                          Le 14/04/2013 09:52, K. Loganathan a écrit :
                          FB

                          Now I am interacting with many Tamil scholars some of whom are also well versed in Sk and many other Indian and European languages. There is considerable support for my claims that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and that Sk is another variant of this language. Many scholars are also tracing the roots of many words in European languages to Tamil (though not yet to SumeruTamil). However the good news is that there are some universities now in TN who may begin intensive studies on all these matters so that we will begin to have academically very sound research papers produced  on these matters.
                          ***

                          Is there not a glaring contradiction between "claiming your claims have considerable [sic] support [sic] among scholars [sic]" and "some universities may begin" ??

                          Translation: nobody with any serious scholarship takes it in earnest.

                          A.
                          ***



                          I am sure my views as well as that of Ms Flora Pulman will be quite well established on very sound linguistic grounds.
                          ***
                          No, they are not.

                          Obviously you can't parse Sumerian words correctly into morphemes, so descriptive linguistics is not there.
                          your "method" is at best medieval.

                          Besides you do not seem to be aware that we don't have a clear picture of what Sumerian really sounded like.

                          Basically you're the Isidore of Sevilla of Tamil.

                          A.
                          ***


                          The reason is at the moment the whole of Constructive Historical Linguistics of Protforms is suspect and the inclusion of Sk as Indo-European and so forth is based on that.

                          Loga

                        • Francesco Brighenti
                          ... Kindly give us the names and credentials of these Tamil scholars . ... Kindly give us the names and credentials of these (Tamil?) scholars . ... Kindly
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 21, 2013
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                            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                            > FB
                            >
                            > Now I am interacting with many Tamil scholars some of whom are also
                            > well versed in Sk and many other Indian and European languages.
                            > There is considerable support for my claims that Sumerian is
                            > Archaic Tamil and that Sk is another variant of this language.

                            Kindly give us the names and credentials of these Tamil "scholars".

                            > Many scholars are also tracing the roots of many words in European
                            > languages to Tamil (though not yet to SumeruTamil).

                            Kindly give us the names and credentials of these (Tamil?) "scholars".

                            > However the good news is that there are some universities now in TN
                            > who may begin intensive studies on all these matters so that we
                            > will begin to have academically very sound research papers produced > on these matters.

                            Kindly gives the names and locations of Tamil universities who "may begin intensive studies" on claims that Sumerian is "Archaic" Tamil, that Sanskrit is another variant of "Archaic" Tamil, and that many words in European languages can be traced back to ("Archaic"?) Tamil.

                            > I am sure my views as well as that of Ms Flora Pulman will be quite
                            > well established on very sound linguistic grounds.

                            Including Flora Pulman's view that Sanskrit is "the root of all Indo European languages"?

                            FB



                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                            > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:56 PM
                            > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                            >
                            > > FB
                            > >
                            > > Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more
                            > > about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at
                            > > least someone who has been following the controversies regarding
                            > > Tamil Sumerian Sk and so forth
                            >
                            > Alternatively, one might suspect she's a screwup, given that she writes:
                            >
                            > "In fact there is a possibility that Tamil was the root of Sanskrit, in turn the root of all Indo European languages."
                            >
                            > FB
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@>
                            > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:22 AM
                            > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                            > >
                            > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Friends
                            > > >
                            > > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news‚ to the
                            > > > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                            > > > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                            > > > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                            > > > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                            > > > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                            > > >
                            > > > See
                            > > >
                            > > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                            > > >
                            > > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                            > > >
                            > > > Loga
                            > >
                            > > First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?
                            > >
                            > > See at
                            > >
                            > > http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html
                            > >
                            > > Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?
                            > >
                            > > FB
                            > >
                            >
                          • K. Loganathan
                            FB I will do that when they start serious studies. This may take another six months or so. But now I am writing in Tamil to some Google groups where the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 23, 2013
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                              FB

                              I will do that when they start serious studies. This may take another six months or so. But now I am writing in Tamil to some Google groups where the members are mainly from TN. I am writing several series on Sumerian language and  culture where I am sure there will be not only general agreement but also efforts on the part of many professors of Tamil language to initiate similar studies.

                              I am at the moment writing a series tracing the origins and development of the  plural pronominal suffxes of person nouns  ( the Sumeriologists call animate) like 'ar' aar' from Sumerian 'ene' that has become 'ere' In Tamil 'ene> inam" by itself means a group , a clan etc.

                              I am also relating this to Rigkirit'bhir' 'na-ir' and so forth.,

                              Soon I will also study the nonperson plural marker 'kal" to Sumerian 'gal' and so forth.

                              Let me confess it is so illuminating - I can see how exacly Tamil has developed over time and how Sk also branched from it.

                              There are so many others like these where my claim that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and that Rigkirit is also a  derivative of this language will be firmly established,

                              They are quite well received and so I am not worried about convincing largely negative thinkers like you.

                              I think you reject these possibilities only because they come to you as a cultural shock more than anything else. You cannot simply imagine the Dravidian folks can be so extraordinary and that too long long before any European tribes.

                              Loga

                               


                              From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                              To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:01 PM
                              Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

                               


                              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:

                              > FB
                              >
                              > Now I am interacting with many Tamil scholars some of whom are also
                              > well versed in Sk and many other Indian and European languages.
                              > There is considerable support for my claims that Sumerian is
                              > Archaic Tamil and that Sk is another variant of this language.

                              Kindly give us the names and credentials of these Tamil "scholars".

                              > Many scholars are also tracing the roots of many words in European
                              > languages to Tamil (though not yet to SumeruTamil).

                              Kindly give us the names and credentials of these (Tamil?) "scholars".

                              > However the good news is that there are some universities now in TN
                              > who may begin intensive studies on all these matters so that we
                              > will begin to have academically very sound research papers produced > on these matters.

                              Kindly gives the names and locations of Tamil universities who "may begin intensive studies" on claims that Sumerian is "Archaic" Tamil, that Sanskrit is another variant of "Archaic" Tamil, and that many words in European languages can be traced back to ("Archaic"?) Tamil.

                              > I am sure my views as well as that of Ms Flora Pulman will be quite
                              > well established on very sound linguistic grounds.

                              Including Flora Pulman's view that Sanskrit is "the root of all Indo European languages"?

                              FB

                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                              > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:56 PM
                              > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                              >
                              > > FB
                              > >
                              > > Thank-you for the information. I am also interested to know more
                              > > about  MS Flora Pulman. I suspect she has to be a linguist or at
                              > > least someone who has been following the controversies regarding
                              > > Tamil Sumerian Sk and so forth
                              >
                              > Alternatively, one might suspect she's a screwup, given that she writes:
                              >
                              > "In fact there is a possibility that Tamil was the root of Sanskrit, in turn the root of all Indo European languages."
                              >
                              > FB
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > > From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@>
                              > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:22 AM
                              > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                              > >
                              > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Friends
                              > > >
                              > > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news‚ to the
                              > > > groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are
                              > > > not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the
                              > > > linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base
                              > > > language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the Language
                              > > > of Indus as many have pointed out.
                              > > >
                              > > > See
                              > > >
                              > > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                              > > >
                              > > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                              > > >
                              > > > Loga
                              > >
                              > > First of all, who is this Flora Pulman from Ivy Bridge, Devon, who replied the query about what is the world's oldest language still spoken today on the British newspaper _The Mirror_?
                              > >
                              > > See at
                              > >
                              > > http://outshine-ga-ga.blogspot.it/2012/08/this-rare-tamil-inscription-was-found.html
                              > >
                              > > Is she a linguist or a simple reader of that newspaper?
                              > >
                              > > FB
                              > >
                              >



                            • cjyothibabu
                              Shobhan Ganji wrote: It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 27, 2013
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                                Shobhan Ganji wrote: It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense.
                                It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind.


                                Jyoti: The argument is not acceptable to me because (1) there is a dispute on which river is referred to as "Saraswati" (this Shobhan Ganji is very well aware) (2) Acquired knowledge can be presented in present tense – it is for the composer to decide it. (3) Acquired knowledge can be translations without change in tense (4) Vedic seers to whom the verses are attributed is not claimed to be the creator of them (this Shobhan Ganji knows very well; but not in this context) (5) When Vedic verses are recited it is done in present tense only (6) Shobhan Ganji has not acquired proprietary rights for understanding Rg Veda "properly".
                                -Jyoti



                                --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense. 
                                > It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind.
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...>
                                > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:09 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Dear Lalit Mishraji
                                > Lalit Mishraji wrote:
                                > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
                                >
                                > Jyothi: I request you to stick to your above observation.
                                > Next to your post is the post by Shobhan Ganji stating that "Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE".
                                > I have read people making claims that Vedas mention and describe Saraswati River and therefore Vedas are as old as Saraswati River. I have read people quoting astronomical events to claim that Vedas are as old as those astronomical events.
                                > Will you at least now agree that such claims are not valid?
                                > Will you accept that Vedic seers were poets and wise persons who have undergone education, that they have gathered information and knowledge regarding past and their own present, that they have tried to acquire and have acquired knowledge from various societies and cultures near and far.
                                > Will you therefore kindly refrain from claiming that Vedas were written when the events described in them has occurred and also refrain from claiming that the events described in them pertain to their own society, because as you have said above it is "Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made".
                                >
                                > Best wishes
                                > -Jyoti
                                >
                                > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Lalit Mishra <litsol@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out".
                                > >  
                                > > What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ?
                                > >  
                                > > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that.
                                > >  
                                > > Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
                                > >  
                                > > Regards,
                                > > Lalit Mishra
                                > >  
                                > >  
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@>
                                > > To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM
                                > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Friends
                                > >
                                > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.
                                > >
                                > > See
                                > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                                > >
                                > > Loga
                                > >
                                >
                              • Lalit Mishra
                                Dear Jyoti,   Your brilliant logic made me to appreciate you for hours and hours, superb entertainment. Thank god that you didn t also said that such an
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 29, 2013
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                                  Dear Jyoti,
                                   
                                  Your brilliant logic made me to appreciate you for hours and hours, superb entertainment. Thank god that you didn't also said that such an acquired knowledge about a geographical entity describing the entity in the present/present continuous tense tells that such an entity didn't exist at all in the time text was comosed, and one should think that such a description is a future prediction ( in present/present continuous tense) to occue in a few thosands years later ...... is that correct ? Then you must give credit to author of the text for making correct predictions that the planet earth followed.
                                   
                                  Well, I am interest in knowing what's the exceptional book on Interpretation methods or on sanskrit grammer or on faculty of logic or on geography or any other tool known only to you, you have got, kindly share that with us, who has authored that and in what school/university that's taught, Pls confirm .....
                                   
                                  //
                                   
                                  Acquired knowledge can be presented in present tense – it is for the composer to decide it. (3) Acquired knowledge can be translations without change in tense (4) Vedic seers to whom the verses are attributed is not claimed to be the creator of them (this Shobhan Ganji knows very well; but not in this context) (5) When Vedic verses are recited it is done in present tense only (6) Shobhan Ganji has not acquired proprietary rights for understanding Rg Veda "properly"
                                  //
                                   
                                  You know Jyoti, you can do better to yourself  with posting below verses and learning their intepretation from us in case, you have some difficulty - 
                                   
                                  1. Rigveda's Saraswati River Verses in which Saraswati River is depicted as flowing, If interpretation is a difficulty for you, I will help you in that.
                                  2. Tandya Brahaman's Verses on Saraswati in which Saraswati River's getting to dry is depicted.
                                  3. Mahabahrata's verses on Sarswati River.
                                   
                                  I assume that you know about those specific verses and just not speculating, in case, you don't know, you can ask me or other members, feel free..

                                  Lalit Mishra
                                   

                                  From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...>
                                  To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 6:12 PM
                                  Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                                   
                                  Shobhan Ganji wrote: It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense. It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind. Jyoti: The argument is not acceptable to me because (1) there is a dispute on which river is referred to as "Saraswati" (this Shobhan Ganji is very well aware) (2) Acquired knowledge can be presented in present tense – it is for the composer to decide it. (3) Acquired knowledge can be translations without change in tense (4) Vedic seers to whom the verses are attributed is not claimed to be the creator of them (this Shobhan Ganji knows very well; but not in this context) (5) When Vedic verses are recited it is done in present tense only (6) Shobhan Ganji has not acquired proprietary rights for understanding Rg Veda "properly". -Jyoti --- In mailto:IndiaArchaeology%40yahoogroups.com, shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...> wrote: > > It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense.  > It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind. > > > ________________________________ > From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...> > To: mailto:IndiaArchaeology%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit > > >   > Dear Lalit Mishraji > Lalit Mishraji wrote: > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made. > > Jyothi: I request you to stick to your above observation. > Next to your post is the post by Shobhan Ganji stating that "Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE". > I have read people making claims that Vedas mention and describe Saraswati River and therefore Vedas are as old as Saraswati River. I have read people quoting astronomical events to claim that Vedas are as old as those astronomical events. > Will you at least now agree that such claims are not valid? > Will you accept that Vedic seers were poets and wise persons who have undergone education, that they have gathered information and knowledge regarding past and their own present, that they have tried to acquire and have acquired knowledge from various societies and cultures near and far. > Will you therefore kindly refrain from claiming that Vedas were written when the events described in them has occurred and also refrain from claiming that the events described in them pertain to their own society, because as you have said above it is "Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made". > > Best wishes > -Jyoti > > --- In mailto:IndiaArchaeology%40yahoogroups.com, Lalit Mishra <litsol@> wrote: > > > >   > > What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out". > >   > > What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ? > >   > > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. > >   > > Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made. > >   > > Regards, > > Lalit Mishra > >   > >   > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@> > > To: "mailto:akandabaratam%40egroups.com" <mailto:akandabaratam%40egroups.com>; "mailto:meykandar%40egroups.com" <mailto:meykandar%40egroups.com>; "mailto:indiaarchaeology%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:indiaarchaeology%40yahoogroups.com>; "mailto:tolkaappiyar%40egroups.com" <mailto:tolkaappiyar%40egroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out. > > > > See > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html > >
                                  > > > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers. > > > > Loga > > >
                                • shobhan ganji
                                  Jyothi wrote :  (1) there is a dispute on which river is referred to as Saraswati (this Shobhan Ganji is very well aware.)  The dispute about the location
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 29, 2013
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                                    Jyothi wrote :
                                     (1) there is a dispute on which river is referred to as "Saraswati" (this Shobhan Ganji is very well aware.)

                                     The dispute about the location of Saraswati river is  fabricated by some western Indologists. Read Michel Danino's book on River Saraswati. Even C.F.Oldham, Marc Aurel Stein have no disagreement about the identity of Saraswati River.
                                     Below is taken from B.B.Lal's article on Saraswathi River.There is no dispute of location of Saraswati as per Indian archaeologists like B.B.Lal.   It location is precisely mentioned in between Yamuna on the East and Sutudri on the west.   The only river that fits this Bill is modern Gagra-Hakra river.  
                                     Rv. 10.75.5 
                                     Imam me gange yamune sarasvati sutudri stomam sacata parusnya |
                                    Akisnya marudvrdhe vitastayarji ki ye srnuhyasusomaya ||

                                    इमं मे गङगे यमुने सरस्वति शुतुद्रि सतेमं सचता परुष्ण्या | 
                                    असिक्न्या मरुद्व्र्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये शर्णुह्यासुषोमया || 

                                    Translation : O Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati , Sutudri ( Sutlej), and Parushni ( Ravi), O Maruvridha' with Asiknya ( Chenab), O Arjikiya with Vitasta ( Jhelum) and Sushoma ( Sohan) please listen to accept this hymn of mine.

                                    Geographically as per the verse, Saraswathi river is situated in between Yamuna and Sutlej. 
                                    Rv 10.75.6

                                    तर्ष्टामया परथमं यातवे सजूः ससर्त्वा रसयाश्वेत्या तया | 
                                    तवं सिन्धो कुभया गोमतीं करुमुम्मेहत्न्वा सरथं याभिरीयसे || 

                                    O Sindhu (Indus), flowing, you first meet the Tristama (and then) the Susartu, the Rasa, and the Sveta (Swat), and thereafter the Kubha (Kabul), the Gomati (Gomal), the Krumu (Kurram) with the Mehatnu; and (finally) you move on in the same chariot with them (i.e. carry their waters with you).// 6 //
                                     
                                     Which other country other than Saptha-Sindhu ( or North-West India) fit this geogrpahical location of saraswati river .
                                    Now the tributaries of River Saraswati are clearly mentioned in RV.3.23.4

                                    Further, RV 3.23.4 mentions the Drisadvati and Apaya as the tributaries of the Sarasvati:
                                    दर्षद्वत्यां मानुष आपयायां सरस्वत्यां रेवदग्नेदिदीहि || 

                                     Finally, there is the oft-quoted hymn, RV 7.95.2.which clearly states that the Sarasvati flowed all the way from the mountains to the ocean.

                                    एकाचेतत सरस्वती नदीनां शुचिर्यती गिरिभ्य आ समुद्रात | 
                                     
                                    When one performs the following tests as per B.B.Lal, only River Saraswati in India passes this test and not Harakwaiti ( Helmand) in Afganishthan.

                                    (i) the location of the said river between the Yamuna and Sutlej;
                                    (ii) the existence of the Drisadvati and Apaya as its tributaries; and
                                    (iii) the given river having flowed into the ocean.

                                    Jyothi Wrote :
                                    (2) Acquired knowledge can be presented in present tense – it is for the composer to decide it.

                                    I don't think so. Mostly people use past tense to depict past events. If the composer used present tense, then we can't argue that the event is not occurring right at the time of the composition. I wonder why we should exclude the greater possibility of the occurrence of the event at the time of composition rather than the less possibility of it considering the event as occurred in the past and the composer is still using present tense to depict it. Doesn't make any sense. Common sense dictates that mostly current events are depicited using present tense.Why would the scholars of  Rigveda choose to glorify almost a dead river when they have so many other rivers which can be glorified in the same region. They could have chosen to glorify Sindhu, Ganga or Shutudri and composed Hymns on them exclusively. This argument to glorify Saraswati  River dedicating exclusive hymns and using the epithets like Rauravat, Swift , nourishing five tribes can't be applied to a dead river. It is only in the later Mandalas you see exclusive glorification of Sindhu river ( I think in 10th Mandala ). Let us say even for a moment if you consider you argument that they acquired the knowledge that Saraswati was a great river in the past, who gave them this knowledge then ( Dravidians ???) . That means you should see a dravidian name for river Saraswati here if Aryans got this knowledge from Dravidians. What is the Dravidian name for river Saraswati, if Dravidians passed this knowledge to immigrating Aryans ?. 
                                     Isn't it absurd that none of the rivers survived dravidian names in North-West India after the so called immigrating Aryans changed the river names in a matter of 200-400 years after they arrived and start glorifying these rivers in a very highly advanced language Vedic Sanskrit. No such phenomenon is noticed any where in any part of the world so far.I am not aware of any dead river's glorification in ancient sanskrit literature in present tense. if you can present it we can appreciate that. Numerous satellite and hydrological studies showed different paleo-channels of river saraswathi and its location more  or less matches with Rigvedic description.As you can see the epithets ( महो अर्णः, रति रोरुवत, सरस्वत्यकवारी ) are in present tense. Apart from this there are other checks and balances in Rigveda which proves that it is pre-Harappan. As per Kazanas the items like cotton, silver, rice, brick ( which are abundant in IVC) are completely absent in Rigveda.
                                      
                                     Let us see how it has been glorified as Per Shivaji Singh.Here is from Shivaji Singh's article on River Saraswati.

                                    To start with, let us first very briefly present the description of the river Sarasvati as found in the Rig Veda. In the RigVedic times, it was a mighty river flowing from the mountains to the sea ( giribhyah asamudrat, RV, 7.95.2). The abundance and tremendous force of its water had an enchanting impact on the minds of the poets who repeatedly described it as :
                                    * 'abounding in waters' ( maho-arnah महो अर्णः सरस्वती पर चेतयति केतुना | , RV, 1.3.12)
                                    * 'flowing rapidly' ( pra-sasre, सस्र एषा सरस्वती, RV, 7.95.1; according to Sayana, pradhvati sighram gachchhati),
                                    * 'moving fautlessly' ( akuvari' , सरस्वत्यकवारी, RV, 7.96.3; Sayana's rendering : akutsitagamana),
                                    * 'possessing unlimited strength' ( yasyah amah ananto , RV 6.61.8; in the words of Sayana, yasyah balam aparyanto-aparaimitah),
                                    यस्या अनन्तो अह्रुतस्त्वेषश्चरिष्णुरर्णवः | 
                                    * 'roaring' ( charati roruvat, RV, 6.61.8; अमश्चरति रोरुवत ||; bhrisam sabdam kurvan vartate, according to Sayana) and even as 
                                    * 'fierce' ( ghora, सरस्वती घोरा, 6.61.7; Sayana's interpretation : Satrunam bhayakarini).
                                    * 'the most impetuous of all other streams' ( apasam-apastama, RV 6.61.13; अपसामपस्तमा; Sayana renders this epithet as vegavatinam nadinam madhye vegavattama).

                                    The material and spiritual benefits the river Sarasvati brought to the people is reflected in several epithets attributed to her as, for example :

                                    * 'rich in grains' ( Vajinivati, सरस्वत्यकवारी चेतति वाजिनीवती | , RV, 7.96.3; Sayana renders the term as annavati),
                                    * 'strong in wealth and power' ( Vajeshu Vajini, सरस्वत्यवा वाजेषु वाजिनि , RV, 6.61.6)
                                    * 'having golden path' ( hiranyavartanih, सरस्वती घोरा हिरण्यवर्तनिः | , RV, 6.61.7)
                                    * 'promoter of the welfare of the five peoples' ( panchajata vardhayanti, RV, 6.61.12, पञ्च जाता वर्धयन्ती | )
                                    * 'the purest of all rivers' ( nadinam suchiryati, नदीनां शुचिर्यती, RV, 7.95.2)
                                    * 'auspicious' ( भद्रा ,RV, 7.96.3)
                                    * 'inspirer of those who delight in truth' (चोदयित्री सून्र्तानां, sunritanam chodayitri, RV, 1.3.11)
                                    * 'the instructor of the right minded' ( चेतन्ती सुमतीनाम ,sumatinam chetanti, RV, 1.3.11), etc.

                                    The Rigveda provides us also an idea of the kind of people ( good as well as bad in the eyes of the Rishis) settled in the Sarasvati Valley and the neighbouring regions as , for instance:
                                    * Purus, who, according to the text, dwelt 'in fullness of their strength', on the both the grassy banks of Sarasvati ( RV, 7.96.2)
                                    * Bharatas, whose king Vadhryasva is said to have begotten Divodasa by Sarasvati's grace ( RV, 6.61.1) and whose princes are found performing yajnas on the banks of Sarasvati, Drishadvati and Apaya ( RV, 3.23.4).
                                    * Pancha-Janah ( the five peoples), that is, Anus, Druhyus, Yadus, Turvasas and Purus, whose welfare the Sarasvati had increased ( RV, 6.61.12)
                                    * Nahushas, descendents of Nahusha, on whom the Sarasvati had poured her benefits( भूरेर्घ्र्तं पयो दुदुहे नाहुषाय || ; RV, 7.95.2),
                                    * Panis , the 'churlish *****rd ( misers), thinkin only of themselves' whom the Sarasvati consumed( RV, 6.61.1),
                                    * Paravatas, who were destroyed by the Sarasvati ( RV, 6.61.2) and
                                    * Brisyas, whom the Sarasvati rooted out ( RV, 6.61.3)

                                    Thus, we have a realistic picture in the RigVeda of a mighty and highly glorified river named Sarasvati descending from the Himalayas, flowing majestically and emptying into the sea, which names of the people living on its banks andd in its valley. The fact that river was later lost in the sands of the desert at a place called Vinasana ( literally 'disappearance') is also attested to by the literature( Panchvimsa Brahmana, 25.10.6; Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana, 4.26 etc) . There is absolutely no ambiguity in descriptions, no room for any controversy, yet an effort was made to hijack the river out of India.

                                    Jyothi Wrote :
                                    6) "Shobhan Ganji has not acquired proprietary rights for understanding Rg Veda "properly".

                                    This is your speculation and you are pushing the discussion to a personal  conflict. I am not interested in personal conflicts. I have not registered any proprietary rights for Rigveda. This is gift of vedic scholars to entire India.



                                    From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...>
                                    To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 5:42 AM
                                    Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit

                                     
                                    Shobhan Ganji wrote: It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense.
                                    It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind.

                                    Jyoti: The argument is not acceptable to me because (1) there is a dispute on which river is referred to as "Saraswati" (this Shobhan Ganji is very well aware) (2) Acquired knowledge can be presented in present tense – it is for the composer to decide it. (3) Acquired knowledge can be translations without change in tense (4) Vedic seers to whom the verses are attributed is not claimed to be the creator of them (this Shobhan Ganji knows very well; but not in this context) (5) When Vedic verses are recited it is done in present tense only (6) Shobhan Ganji has not acquired proprietary rights for understanding Rg Veda "properly".
                                    -Jyoti

                                    --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It seems that Jyoti is not aware of the glorification of the Saraswati River in Present tense in Rigveda. If some body acquires knowledge about the Past, they will normally use past tense to glorify such events. However, if you look at Rigveda and the Sanskrit verses related to glorification of the Saraswati River all of them are in present tense. 
                                    > It is infact people like Jyoti and others should refrain from wasting time without even understanding Rig Veda properly with an open mind.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: cjyothibabu <jyoti585858@...>
                                    > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:09 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    > Dear Lalit Mishraji
                                    > Lalit Mishraji wrote:
                                    > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that. Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
                                    >
                                    > Jyothi: I request you to stick to your above observation.
                                    > Next to your post is the post by Shobhan Ganji stating that "Vedic literature talks about Saraswati river and astronomical events that have disappeared before atleast by 2000 BCE".
                                    > I have read people making claims that Vedas mention and describe Saraswati River and therefore Vedas are as old as Saraswati River. I have read people quoting astronomical events to claim that Vedas are as old as those astronomical events.
                                    > Will you at least now agree that such claims are not valid?
                                    > Will you accept that Vedic seers were poets and wise persons who have undergone education, that they have gathered information and knowledge regarding past and their own present, that they have tried to acquire and have acquired knowledge from various societies and cultures near and far.
                                    > Will you therefore kindly refrain from claiming that Vedas were written when the events described in them has occurred and also refrain from claiming that the events described in them pertain to their own society, because as you have said above it is "Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made".
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes
                                    > -Jyoti
                                    >
                                    > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Lalit Mishra <litsol@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >  
                                    > > What a great logic made below that for the reason, somebiody found references to rivers dried up 10,000 yrs back ( I guess it's saraswati)  in tamil language, Lognathan is happy, walking an extra mile for saying -  "It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out".
                                    > >  
                                    > > What about Tanday Brahaman noting drying up process of river Saraswati ?
                                    > >  
                                    > > So, if we make a reference to Sumerian people today in this post, that means we are living in that era (10,000 yrs back ) also, Loga is sounding like that.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Hard to understand, why such out of place remarks are made.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Regards,
                                    > > Lalit Mishra
                                    > >  
                                    > >  
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@>
                                    > > To: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>; "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>; "indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <indiaarchaeology@yahoogroups.com>; "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 11:40 AM
                                    > > Subject: [Ind-Arch] News; Tamil Sumerian and Sanskrit
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >  
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Friends
                                    > >
                                    > > With thanks to Mr. Ilakkuvnar I am forwarding this news  to the groups so that it gets a wider publicity. Though the details are not clear but quite amazingly accurate. It correctly notes the linkages of Tamil with Sumerian and the fact that it is the base language of Sk. It also notes the possibility of being the language of Indus as many have pointed out.
                                    > >
                                    > > See
                                    > > http://thiru2050.blogspot.in/2013/04/blog-post_7751.html
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I am wondering why such news are not carried by Indian Newspapers.
                                    > >
                                    > > Loga
                                    > >
                                    >



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