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Re: Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal

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  • shivkhokra
    Rather simple Ram. Jewellery/toys/beads for young girls in the package for which this seal was created. Why are you making such petty arguments? Regards,
    Message 1 of 38 , Dec 6, 2012
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      Rather simple Ram.
      Jewellery/toys/beads for young girls in the package for which this seal was created.

      Why are you making such petty arguments?

      Regards,
      Shivraj

      --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Ram Varmha <varmha@...> wrote:
      > << You've just given me the derivation for yet another Indus sign; aal, a wavy line that depicts water! It appears on seal M751, which reads 'al-ka,' or 'al-al-ka,' probably 'alaka,' Sanskrit for a girl from 8 to 10 years of age. >>
      >
      >  
      > With due respect to you, Suzanne, this is totally unacceptable. The word in Sanskrit for "a girl
      > child of 8 to 10 years old" - "alaka" - in Indus Script, written on a Unicorn Seal? What purpose
      > would it serve to write such a meaningless piece on a seal used for making impressions on
      > packages of merchandize for shipping, perhaps? 
      >  
      > Sorry, no sale! 
      >  
      > Regards,
      > Ram
      >  
      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/36350863/A-Dravidian-solution-to-the-Indus-Script-Asko-Parpola
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > --- On Tue, 12/4/12, Suzanne Redalia <smr479@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Suzanne Redalia <smr479@...>
      > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
      > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, December 4, 2012, 7:22 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Loga,
      >
      >
      > I appreciate your comments and have always found your posts fascinating. Indeed a number of Indus signs are derived from Dravidian languages as well as Sumerian, the examples that come to mind are na1 ( a sign that looks like a stick plow or broken vertical line, from nangal, plow), and a1 (from Tamil al, man, a stick figure man sign).
      > You've just given me the derivation for yet another Indus sign; aal, a wavy line that depicts water! It appears on seal M751, which reads 'al-ka,' or 'al-al-ka,' probably 'alaka,'  Sanskrit for a girl from 8 to 10 years of age.
      >
      >
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      > Many thanks, Suzanne
      >
      >
      >
      > On Nov 30, 2012, at 6:20 PM, K. Loganathan wrote:
      >
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      >  
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      >
      > Hi
      >
      >
      > What surprises me is that you do not seem to be aware that the Sumerian words that you have noted are also Tamil. Su. nag, nang is Tamil nakku: to lick but meaning to drink. From duplication nag-nag we have Ta, nainai: to get drenched. From this is derived Sk snaana: to have a bath.
      >
      >
      > Now Su. ud or ude is actually Ta. utu: to arise, dawn, sunrise and so forth, Even now Ta, utayam is sun rise,
      >
      >
      > The ha, a meaning water is Ta. aal, al ,am: water widely present in C. Tamil.
      >
      >
      > I have in fact shown that almost all the words of Sumerian is Archaic Tamil  I call Sumerian Archaic Tamil only because it is an earlier stage of the Evolution of C. Tamil.  I avoid the PIE model of Historical Linguitics where PIE forms are not historically attestble. So what is the use of constructing such platonic forms?
      >
      >
      > Now as per your claim if a number of Indus Signs are derived from Sumerian and which is Archaic Tamil then certainly it follows that Harappan language must be  a kind of Tamil very similar to SumeruTamil.
      >
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      > Also note here my claim that Rigkirit is also a derivation SumeruTamil and that Sk is NOT an IndoAryan language but rather  Dravidian
      >
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      > These claims of mine are quite well known and hence will not give the references
      >
      >
      > Loga
      >
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      >
      > From: Suzanne Redalia <smr479@...>
      > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:01 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > A number of Indus script signs appear to derive from Sumerian words, these include na2 (from Sumerian nang, drink), dhu, from Sumerian 'ud,' day, and 'ha', from Sumerian 'a, water.' However, most of the signs derive from words of an Indo-Iranian language.
      > So Ram's comments are well-founded in my opinion. People who enter the study of Indus script hoping to find their preconceived ideas about it will be validated, are very likely to be both surprised and disappointed.
      >
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      > On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:12 AM, Ram Varmha wrote:
      >
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      >  
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      > << It appears in those days both Harappa and Sumeria and adjacent lands were essentially Dravidian where we cannot rule out the possibility of different Dravidian languages even in those days. >>
      >  
      > This is a possibility that can not be ignored in future studies. Further research and archaeological findings may point to that.
      >  
      > Perhaps some researcher should try to decipher Indus using Sumerian as a base. Many signs such as that of the "fish" etc, so prominent in Indus Script are also found in Sumerian. Dr. Parpola has touched upon this in one of his books on the Indus
      > Scripts.
      >  
      > << Note also that Elamite is also essentially Dravidian >>
      >  
      > There may very well be some connection between Sumerian, Elamite, Dravidian and possibly some of the ancient languages around the present Gulf States, where Indus
      > seals have been located also.    
      >  
      > Such possibilities should be investigated using an open minded framework - not from a parochial or politically bent point of view. 
      >  
      > Regards,
      > Ram
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > --- On Sat, 11/17/12, K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: K. Loganathan <ulagankmy@...>
      > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
      > To: "IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com" <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
      > Cc: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" <akandabaratam@egroups.com>, "meykandar@egroups.com" <meykandar@egroups.com>, "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com" <tolkaappiyar@egroups.com>
      > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2012, 7:53 PM
      >
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      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi
      >
      >
      > If your reading is correct and it is Dravidian, then it could also be Sumerian as I have shown that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil.
      >
      >
      > But if  Dravidian words are inscribed in Indus Script can it also mean the Harappans were also like Sumerians- Dravidian speakers? Ethically quite the same? Recall Kinnier Wilson Jr's claim of IndoSumerian, that the Harappan language is the same as Sumerian
      >
      >
      > Note also that Elamite is also essentially Dravidian 
      >
      >
      > It appears in those days both Harappa and Sumeria and adjacent lands were essentially Dravidian where we cannot rule out the possibility of different Dravidian languages even in those days.
      >
      >
      > Loga
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Arnaud <fournet.arnaud@...>
      > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com; Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>; Ram Varmha <varmha@...>
      > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:18 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
      >
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      >  
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      > Le 12/11/2012 03:32, Ram Varmha a écrit :
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      > Why are Indus scripts showing up on Mesopotamian seals? Are they to be read in Harappan(?), Dravidian, Hittite or Sumerian? Intriguing - isn't it?  
      >  
      > Many such questions are coming to surface with the discovery of Mesopotamian seals with Indus scripts on them. Perhaps, one day we will understand the situation better.
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > From the Schoyen Collection (Norway) catalog. Impression from a cylindrical seal (Akkadian)  found in NW Afghanistan - location unknown(?).
      > It seems to show a wild boar hunt next to Indus Scripts. Wonder what it will read?***
      >
      > According to the decipherment on which I worked a few years ago,
      > from left to right:
      > sign a for ambu "arrow"
      > next a sign for a syllable lv because of a-li "woman"
      > next a voiceless dental tv
      > so it's either a-lv-tv or tv-lv-a
      >
      > Apparently tv-lv-a is the correct reading
      > Dravidian:
      >
      > Meaning : pig
      > Kolami : turre
      > Naikri : turre
      > Naiki : tur, turre
      > My decipherment may be better than it seems... :)
      >
      > A.
      > ***
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      >  
      > It is well known that there were commercial and cultural exchanges between Mesopotamia and Indus - probably linguistic as well. Not much is known about these yet, but the pieces  are collecting around the jig-saw puzzle of Sumerian, Akkadian, Dravidian and Indus.
      >  
      > There appears to be no Indo-European/Indo-Aryan presence in the region.  
      >  
      > Regards,
      > Ram
      >  
      >
    • Ancient
      DEAR ALL, The library books, A Huge PAURANIC ENCYCLOPEDIA 64.5 Mb (922 pages -has descriptions of double column 900 pages- 1800 columns + 22 pages from 901 -
      Message 38 of 38 , Jan 22, 2013
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        DEAR ALL,

        The library books,  A Huge PAURANIC ENCYCLOPEDIA 64.5 Mb (922 pages -has descriptions of double column 900 pages- 1800 columns + 22 pages from 901 - to 922 Ancestry of Brahma Vansh) derieved from ALLVEDAS and Purans with references of chapters and shlokas.

        As is Huge, nor uploaded in groups file section, can not be attached but is avilable on line -
         
        Url is given below. worthto download. and use for so and so references. and may lead to original scripts in sanskrit and translations of each of Vedas and Purans.
         
        Original copy has original sanskrit scripts and original references to each vedic /puranic chapter /shloks - But In a library vedic section ONLY english copy is available. but we can reach original from those reference.
         
        PURANIC
        ENCYCLOPAEDIA
        A
        Comprehensive Dictionary with Special Reference to the
        Epic
        and Purariic Literature
        VETTAM
        MANI
        MOTILAL
        BANARSIDASS
        Delhi
        Patna Varanasi
        MOTILAL
        BANARSIDASS
        Indological Publishers
        & Booksellers
        Head
        Office : BUNGALOW ROAD, JAWAHAR NAOAR, DELHl-7
        Branches
        : 1. CHOWK, VARANASI-1 (u.P. )
        2.
        ASHOK RAJPATH, PATNA-4 (BIHAR)
        ISBN
        08426 0822 2
        All
        Rights reserved by the Author
        First
        Edition in Malayalam : Kottayam : 1964
        Second
        Edition ,, ,, ,, 1967
        Third
        Edition ,, ,, ,, 1971
        Fourth
        Edition ,, ,, ,, 1974
        First
        Edition in English : Delhi, 1975
        ;
        Distributed by:
        South Asia Books
        Box
        502
        Columbia,
        MO 65201
        Printed
        in India
        BY SHANTILAL
        JAIN, AT SHRI JAINENDRA PRESS, BUNGALOW ROAD, JAWAHAR
        NAGAR,
        DELHI-7 AND PUBLISHED BY SUNDARLAL JAIN, FOR MOTILAL
        BANARSIDASS,
        BUNGALOW ROAD, JAWAHAR NAGAR, DELHI-7
        Puranic Encyclopaedia Book of LINAGE ISBN

        From the Library source of the : kutchsciencefoundation

        The Puranic encyclopedia is huge in thousands of pages.and price is varying (new from £34.41 2 used from £34.43 ) But I recommand you download free 64.5 Mb from
         
         
        Puranic Encyclopaediawww.scribd.com/doc/36064109/Puranic-EnyclopaediaSimilarYou +1'd this publicly. UndoThere is a reference in Visnu Purana to a hell called Adhassiras. (Visnu Purina, Part 2, Chapter 6). ADHIRA. A King; also a great devotee of Lord Siva. Once he ... Full text of "Puranic encyclopaedia : a comprehensive dictionary with ...archive.org/.../puranicencyclopa00maniuoft/puranicencyclopa00man...You +1'd this publicly. UndoHowever, in the third revised and enlarged edition in one volume published in October, 1971, the name was changed to 'Puranic Encyclopaedia'.
         
         
        Puranic Encyclopaedia: A Comprehensive Dictionary with Special Reference to the Epic and Puranic Literature by Vettam Mani (Hardcover - Dec 1998) Buy new: £62.50 £59.38 4 new from £34.41 2 used from £34.43
         
        REGARDS WITH BEST WISHES
         
        --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli wrote:
        >
        > What you unfortunately miss out in entirety is *contiuation*. Ikshvaku lineage has a beginning and continuation, and itself post-dates previous manvantaras if you really want to go by Purana.
        >
        > "US is only 230 years old - yet, it boasts of a culture with science
        > and medicine in the lead, albeit some negative societal aspects.
        > > Most of the members of this Group live and prosper in the US. That speaks for itself, doesn't it?"
        >
        > No, that hardly speaks anything when it comes to human evolution over millennia. It just is a short-lived power shift and not much beyond.
        >
        > Coming back to the topic, Purana mentions several timescales (cycles actually) - geological, astronomical, civilizational and societal. It mentions different lineages belonging to each of these cycles - some royal (indicating social cycles), some manu (indicating geographic-civilizational cycles), some divine (indicating astronomical cycles), some kalpa (creational, geological) etc. Each of them apply over different durations. Mapping these with evolution of life on the planet (as depicted in the 10-avatara sequence from sea animal to amphibian to more developed land animal to human to psychological human etc) will easily tell you which scale is applicable in which stage. I only see Purana being opportunistically quoted, without really being quoted for what answers it has to the real questions of history and evolution.
        >
        > Genetic evidence going back to 40K years doesn't mention any "advanced civilization", does it? Nor does it go with the claim of Tamil or Sanskrit. It definitely indicates where the roots of civilization thrived which can influence fundamental assumptions.
        >
        > "Why is it so necessary to push back Indian history to such long periods"
        >
        > Again, it is not Indian history being "pushed back", the right word is tracing back - because it is not technically "history" that you are tracing from that remote a past, when there is no clarity even about something as recent as 4000 years before present. For a historian of India, timescales should not be scary at all!
        >
        > But all the while I only see a sort of closed-minded and agenda-based approach to research, which is unfortunate.
        >
        >
        > Shankar
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        >
        > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, Ram Varmha wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Suzanne,
        > > According to Hindu Mythology the following are the dynastic kings of the the Ikshavaku line.
        > > I counted 63 of them listed. Assuming (generously) 40 years per king, the total comes to only 2520 years.
        > > It is not possible that advanced civilzations existed in South and North India before 40,000 years with the inhabitants speaking Sanskrit and Tamil for that long.
        > > Why is it so necessary to push back Indian history to such long periods? Is it to gain more importance - older the civilization the greater its magnitude?
        > > US is only 230 years old - yet, it boasts of a culture with science and medicine in the lead, albeit some negative societal aspects.
        > > Most of the members of this Group live and prosper in the US. That speaks for itself, doesn't it?!
        > >  
        > > << I didn't 'plant' Sanskrit to decipher Indus script. It came as a surprise to me, and I can not emphasize that enough. >>
        > > The same goes for me too!!
        > > Regards,
        > > Ram
        > >   
        > >  
        > > http://www.indianetzone.com/56/ikshvaku_dynasty.htm
        > >
        > >
        > > --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Suzanne Redalia wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Suzanne Redalia
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 1:27 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Ram,
        > >
        > >
        > > According to the on-line sources (various wikis) I have read, Ikshvaku and  Rishabha/Adhinatha, the founder of Jainism, were the same person, a Tamil prince who relocated to the north. Perhaps these sources were in error.
        > > I am finding Tamil loan-words in some of the Indus seal names; va-dha-a-Selv-vi, Selv-an-dran, Selvam and so forth. If the Ikshvaku dynasty was of Tamil descent, the further back in time one goes, the more Dravidian words one could expect to find. 
        > > According to geneticists, the ancestral north Indian population diverged from the ancestral south Indian population around 40,000 BC. If Sanskrit and Dravidian languages have been changing over time for that long, that could explain why they are so very different at present. Yet there are similarities; Sanskrit ka (king), Tamil ko (king), and I can't believe that they are all loan words.
        > >
        > >
        > > I didn't 'plant' Sanskrit to decipher Indus script. It came as a surprise to me, and I can not emphasize that enough.
        > >
        > >
        > > Suzanne
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Dec 9, 2012, at 8:47 PM, Ram Varmha wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Suzanne,
        > > Some of us are unaware that the Ikshvaku dynasty was founded by the Tamils - presuming that you are referring to the ancient Solar dynasty that ends with Lava and Kusha, the children of Rama?
        > > I'm not totally in sync with the above projection but it points to possibilities. Perhaps you have more information you can provide.
        > > This also places Dravidian at the heart of Indus. It is well known that there is a strong Dravidian substrate in the Rg, and Indus scholars are stating that the Indus/Harappan language could have been Proto-Dravidian, (Refer: Clyde Winter's thesis and Parpola's).
        > >  
        > > Perhaps you made a mistake in planting Sanskrit to decipher Indus Script?
        > > You should have tried North Dravidian languages like Kannda, Telugu, Tulu and also
        > > cen-Tamil of the South to decipher Indus. They may have provided a better fit for the Indus Script model, than Sanskrit. 
        > >  
        > > The Sanskrit words you are equating Indus to may be 'loans' from Dravidian?
        > > I do not believe that Sanskrit evolved from Dravidian. Sanskrit is of the Indo-European family of languages. But, early Vedic was highly influenced by Dravidian. More research may be needed to clarify details.
        > >  
        > > Cheers,
        > > Ram
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > > << The Sanskrit word Sharkara and these Hindu goddesses prove that sugarcane was very much Hindu and Indian. >>
        > >
        > > Note: The word for raw sugar made from sugar cane is termed "zarkarA" in Malayalam of Kerala. It may be that the Sanskrit word for sugar-cane is a 'loan' from Dravidian?
        > > RV
        > >
        > >
        > > mysticism
        > >
        > >
        > > The Sugarcane Mystery: Indus Valley And The Ikshvaku Dynasty
        > > By: Santanam Swaminathan on Nov 19, 2011 
        > > Tags : Jains, Indus valley, Sugarcane, Adhiyaman, Ikshvaku
        > >  
        > > Ikshvaku was the founder of the Solar Dynasty. Lord Sri Rama, Bhageeratha and other great kings of the solar dynasty are well known to the Hindus. What is interesting is that we get more and more evidence to link him with the Indus Valley Civilisation, first Jain Thirthankara, Rishabadeva, the Rik Veda and a Tamil king called Adhiyamaan.
        > >
        > > Ikshvaku was mentioned in Rik Veda. The meaning of his name is SUGARCANE. The plant sugarcane (Saccharum officinarum) is mentioned in the Atharva Veda. Ayurvedic authors Charaka and Susruta mentioned the sugarcane in many places. The word ‘sugar’ and the words for sugar in other European languages came from the Sanskrit word ‘Sharkara’. Columbus introduced the sugarcane to the Americas in 1439. Arabs took it from India to other parts of Asia around 8th century AD.
        > >
        > > Encyclopaedias say that the people of New Guinea were the first to cultivate sugarcane around 6000 BC. But they did not extract sugar from it. They just chewed it to get the juice out of it. But King Ikshvaku was the first one to show the people of extracting sugar from the sugarcane. That is how he got this name Mr Sugarcane.
        > >
        > > Who was Ikshvaku?
        > >
        > > Ikshvaku was the son of Vaivasvata Manu who is equated with the King Satyavrata of Dravidian country in whose time the first avatar of Lord Vishnu- Matsyavatara (Fish incarnation) - took place. So all the facts lead us to the remotest period. Ikshvaku was more famous for his just rule rather than sugarcane juice.
        > >
        > > Jains have another interesting story about the sugarcane. Their first Thirthankara Rishabadeva (Adi Nath) was the one who taught the people of extraction of sugarcane juice. So he was known as Ikshvaku. Another version is that he took sugarcane juice after a year of fasting. Both the Hindu and Jain Ikshvakus are probably one and the same.
        > >
        > > Indus Valley civilisation has evidence to show that they knew sugarcane and sugar extraction. Crystallised sugar was used by the Indus Valley people. Hindu Gods and Goddesses such as Lalitha (Ref. Lalitha Sahasranamam), Kamakshi, Tripura Sundari and the Hindu Cupid Manmatha are depicted holding a sugarcane in one hand. The Sanskrit word Sharkara and these Hindu goddesses prove that sugarcane was very much Hindu and Indian.
        > >
        > > Tamil King Adhiyamaan Nedumaan Anji
        > >
        > > Another interesting fact about sugarcane is in Tamil literature. The word for sugarcane in Tamil is ‘Karumbu’.The grand old lady of Tamil literature Avvaiyar praised chieftain Adhiyamaan  Nedumaan Anji of Thagadur (modern Dharmapuri in Tamil Nadu)  for his philanthropy in Puranaanuru verse 99. Avvaiyar lived two thousand years ago. While praising him she made a passing remark. She said that the forefathers of Adhiyamaan were the one who introduced sugarcane to the people. If we get all these facts together we get a good picture of sugarcane cultivation in India. Ikshvaku or Rishabadeva was the one who taught people how to get the juice and make sugar. But if Indus valley had it by 3000 BC then we had to push the date of Ikshvaku dynasty or Rishabadeva to 3000 BC as well. Tamils also say indirectly that Adhiyamaan was related to him. The South Indian Tamils corroborate what their North Indian counterparts said about the
        > sugarcane. The idea that it
        > > was ‘introduced’ by some king is undeniable. The sugarcane mystery pushes back the date of Ikshvaku dynasty and the Jain Thirthankara to the remotest periods of Indian history.
        > >
        > > Other Sanskrit words for sugarcane are Mahashira, Mahapushpaka and for jaggery ‘Gur’ or ‘Gud’ (Tamil word Vellam).
        > >  
        > > http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual-blogs/seekers/mysticism/the-sugarcane-mystery-indus-valley-and-the-ikshvaku-dynasty
        > >  
        > > ******************************************************************************
        > >  
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- On Fri, 12/7/12, Suzanne Redalia wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Suzanne Redalia
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Friday, December 7, 2012, 2:26 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > > Dear Loga, 
        > >
        > >
        > > I think that Indus script is a syncretic form of writing that was invented by Ikshvaku, the founder of the dynasty named for him, who is credited with the invention of Brahmi script. Since Indus script is observably an archaic form of Brahmi writing, this makes Ikshvaku, a prince of Tamil descent who settled in the north, a person of great influence on India's history and culture. My findings about Indus script indicate that its inventor took signs from Sumerian pre-cuneiform writing, a Dravidian writing system, and a writing system used by Sanskrit-speakers, in order to devise Indus script.
        > >
        > >
        > > You mentioned the Tamil word for drink, so close to the Sumerian word (nang), and chided me for not knowing about it. But, did you know that the Japanese word  for drink is nomu? Genetic studies have shown that the commonest mtDNA haplotypes in Europe, the Near East, and east Asia, all stem from  South India. So it should not surprise anyone to find similarities cropping up in language groups formerly thought to be unrelated.
        > > I don't think that the language of the Indus civilization was Sumerian. However, I did find some references to Inanna, a Sumerian goddess, on a few seals. Most of the seals bear Sanskrit or Prakrit names, however.
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanking you for your kind acknowledgment, Suzanne
        > >
        > >
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        > > On Dec 5, 2012, at 5:03 PM, K. Loganathan wrote:
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        > > Hi
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        > >
        > > Thank-you.  The commonness of the Indus signs with Sumerian that you are pointing out holds the possibility of deciphering the Indus Script. I have not concentrated on this task but instead in Sumerian studies,.
        > >
        > >
        > > The problem with Parpola Mahadevan and so forth is that they read C.Tamil into Indus Script, But languages evolve and so has also Tamil. Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and is contemporary to Harappan civilization.
        > >
        > >
        > > You are adding to the lists of signs that are common to Indus and Sumerian. This should mean that the language of Indus must be the SAME as Sumerian and that both the Harappans and Sumerians must be ethnically the same.
        > >
        > >
        > > I feel that both groups of people could have originated from the large Island mass in the Persian Gulf that was swallowed by the sea, From the study of Jeffry Long, it is clear the Sumerian drifted into the valleys of Tigris and Euphrates after this deluge, I suspect another group might have drifted into Indus and developed the civilization there. Now I also suspect that at about that time (c. 4000 BC) they had a rudimentary script that was quite similar but later diverged somewhat.
        > >
        > >
        > > I feel that your current line of investigations will finally lead to the successful decipherment of the Indus Script.  Of course a bilingual text with both Cuneiform Script and Indus will solve all the problems. But meanwhile your present line of attack will lead to successful decipherment of the Indus script.
        > >
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        > > Wish you well in your present course of investigations.
        > >
        > >
        > > By the way this may not be much but want to mention it any way. Two wavy lines in Sumerian meaning 'a,aal' water  resembles the Tamil  'a' sound in such  syllables as  "கா " ( ka.a)
        > >
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        > > Loga
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        > >
        > > From: Suzanne Redalia
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 8:22 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Loga,
        > >
        > >
        > > I appreciate your comments and have always found your posts fascinating. Indeed a number of Indus signs are derived from Dravidian languages as well as Sumerian, the examples that come to mind are na1 ( a sign that looks like a stick plow or broken vertical line, from nangal, plow), and a1 (from Tamil al, man, a stick figure man sign).
        > > You've just given me the derivation for yet another Indus sign; aal, a wavy line that depicts water! It appears on seal M751, which reads 'al-ka,' or 'al-al-ka,' probably 'alaka,'  Sanskrit for a girl from 8 to 10 years of age.
        > >
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        > > Many thanks, Suzanne
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        > >
        > > On Nov 30, 2012, at 6:20 PM, K. Loganathan wrote:
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        > > Hi
        > >
        > >
        > > What surprises me is that you do not seem to be aware that the Sumerian words that you have noted are also Tamil. Su. nag, nang is Tamil nakku: to lick but meaning to drink. From duplication nag-nag we have Ta, nainai: to get drenched. From this is derived Sk snaana: to have a bath.
        > >
        > >
        > > Now Su. ud or ude is actually Ta. utu: to arise, dawn, sunrise and so forth, Even now Ta, utayam is sun rise,
        > >
        > >
        > > The ha, a meaning water is Ta. aal, al ,am: water widely present in C. Tamil.
        > >
        > >
        > > I have in fact shown that almost all the words of Sumerian is Archaic Tamil  I call Sumerian Archaic Tamil only because it is an earlier stage of the Evolution of C. Tamil.  I avoid the PIE model of Historical Linguitics where PIE forms are not historically attestble. So what is the use of constructing such platonic forms?
        > >
        > >
        > > Now as per your claim if a number of Indus Signs are derived from Sumerian and which is Archaic Tamil then certainly it follows that Harappan language must be  a kind of Tamil very similar to SumeruTamil.
        > >
        > >
        > > Also note here my claim that Rigkirit is also a derivation SumeruTamil and that Sk is NOT an IndoAryan language but rather  Dravidian
        > >
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        > > These claims of mine are quite well known and hence will not give the references
        > >
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        > > Loga
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        > >
        > > From: Suzanne Redalia
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:01 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > > A number of Indus script signs appear to derive from Sumerian words, these include na2 (from Sumerian nang, drink), dhu, from Sumerian 'ud,' day, and 'ha', from Sumerian 'a, water.' However, most of the signs derive from words of an Indo-Iranian language.
        > > So Ram's comments are well-founded in my opinion. People who enter the study of Indus script hoping to find their preconceived ideas about it will be validated, are very likely to be both surprised and disappointed.
        > >
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        > > On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:12 AM, Ram Varmha wrote:
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        > > << It appears in those days both Harappa and Sumeria and adjacent lands were essentially Dravidian where we cannot rule out the possibility of different Dravidian languages even in those days. >>
        > >  
        > > This is a possibility that can not be ignored in future studies. Further research and archaeological findings may point to that.
        > >  
        > > Perhaps some researcher should try to decipher Indus using Sumerian as a base. Many signs such as that of the "fish" etc, so prominent in Indus Script are also found in Sumerian. Dr. Parpola has touched upon this in one of his books on the Indus
        > > Scripts.
        > >  
        > > << Note also that Elamite is also essentially Dravidian >>
        > >  
        > > There may very well be some connection between Sumerian, Elamite, Dravidian and possibly some of the ancient languages around the present Gulf States, where Indus
        > > seals have been located also.    
        > >  
        > > Such possibilities should be investigated using an open minded framework - not from a parochial or politically bent point of view. 
        > >  
        > > Regards,
        > > Ram
        > >  
        > >  
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        > >  
        > >  
        > >
        > > --- On Sat, 11/17/12, K. Loganathan wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: K. Loganathan
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > > To: "IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com"
        > > Cc: "akandabaratam@egroups.com" , "meykandar@egroups.com" , "tolkaappiyar@egroups.com"
        > > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2012, 7:53 PM
        > >
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        > >  
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        > >
        > > Hi
        > >
        > >
        > > If your reading is correct and it is Dravidian, then it could also be Sumerian as I have shown that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil.
        > >
        > >
        > > But if  Dravidian words are inscribed in Indus Script can it also mean the Harappans were also like Sumerians- Dravidian speakers? Ethically quite the same? Recall Kinnier Wilson Jr's claim of IndoSumerian, that the Harappan language is the same as Sumerian
        > >
        > >
        > > Note also that Elamite is also essentially Dravidian 
        > >
        > >
        > > It appears in those days both Harappa and Sumeria and adjacent lands were essentially Dravidian where we cannot rule out the possibility of different Dravidian languages even in those days.
        > >
        > >
        > > Loga
        > >
        > >
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        > >
        > >
        > > From: Arnaud
        > > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com; Francesco Brighenti ; Ram Varmha
        > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:18 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Indus scripts on Mesopotamian Seal
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > > Le 12/11/2012 03:32, Ram Varmha a écrit :
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        > > Why are Indus scripts showing up on Mesopotamian seals? Are they to be read in Harappan(?), Dravidian, Hittite or Sumerian? Intriguing - isn't it?  
        > >  
        > > Many such questions are coming to surface with the discovery of Mesopotamian seals with Indus scripts on them. Perhaps, one day we will understand the situation better.
        > >  
        > >  
        > >  
        > >
        > > From the Schoyen Collection (Norway) catalog. Impression from a cylindrical seal (Akkadian)  found in NW Afghanistan - location unknown(?).
        > > It seems to show a wild boar hunt next to Indus Scripts. Wonder what it will read?***
        > >
        > > According to the decipherment on which I worked a few years ago,
        > > from left to right:
        > > sign a for ambu "arrow"
        > > next a sign for a syllable lv because of a-li "woman"
        > > next a voiceless dental tv
        > > so it's either a-lv-tv or tv-lv-a
        > >
        > > Apparently tv-lv-a is the correct reading
        > > Dravidian:
        > >
        > > Meaning : pig
        > > Kolami : turre
        > > Naikri : turre
        > > Naiki : tur, turre
        > > My decipherment may be better than it seems... :)
        > >
        > > A.
        > > ***
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        > > It is well known that there were commercial and cultural exchanges between Mesopotamia and Indus - probably linguistic as well. Not much is known about these yet, but the pieces  are collecting around the jig-saw puzzle of Sumerian, Akkadian, Dravidian and Indus.
        > >  
        > > There appears to be no Indo-European/Indo-Aryan presence in the region.  
        > >  
        > > Regards,
        > > Ram
        > >  
        > >
        >
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