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Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian and IA

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  • ravilochanan iyengar
    ___________________________________________Arnaud wrote: There is in fact an interesting example in Genesis 31.47 of a man from NHRYM  = northern Mesopotamia,
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 1, 2010

      ___________________________________________
      Arnaud wrote:

      There is in fact an interesting example in Genesis 31.47 of a man from NHRYM 
      = northern Mesopotamia, called Sahaduta.

      There is a possibility that this name is an alteration of *Suha-data = 
      Su(w)ar-data "given by the sun".

      Sahaduta is not Semitic and it could well be Mitanni-Aryan.

      As you can see here the H2 of *saH2u-"sun" is preserved.

      _________________________________________

      There are so many things wrong with this 'example'.

      Gen 31.47 says that a heap of stones (as a memorial of covenant) was named as 'jegarsahadutha'. It does not speak about a person named 'sahadutha'. And even if we accept that this word is Mitanni-Aryan, 'saha' is an IA word. There is no need to torture it to give us '*soh2wl/*sah2vel'. It appears that Arnaud has simply tried to read the word as he wants it to be rather than what it actually is. After all, 'dUta' means messenger in Skt. Moreover, it is generally stated that 'Jegar-sahadutha' is Aramaic and that it means 'heap of witness'. Therefore, what we see here is a clear example of taking a word and bending it to Arnaud's will so as to suit his purpose.


      What interests me is that Arnaud had claimed in the previous mail that Pre-Vedic (and hence, Vedic) did not have any laryngeals. I guess he changed his opinion after actually reading some material about the same. After all, every Sanskritist and IE linguist worth his salt do accept that laryngeal elision was not completed during the time of RV and Avesta.

      I read A's mails just today. I do wonder what he tries to gain by considering the rules in linguistics as similar to rules in physics. There are several exceptions to linguistics rules. I have time and again pointed out the same. Consider the examples of asthi, prathiman, zakhA, pitR etc..

      There are even some cases of diphthongization as against the general tendency of monopthongization. E.g. eva (Skt) > 'aive' (Punjabi).

      Both KaGkAla and palAla are found in Pokorny's "Indogermanisches Etymologisches Woerterbuch". Pages 566 and 802. 

      As for 'dada', '*gang-' etc., a tries to explain away such words as reduplications. But what he fails to note is that words with two voiced unaspirated consonants are not non-existent. And '*gang-' means to mock (cf. Skt 'gaJja') and '*geng-' means lump. I dont think that we can consider them to be simple cases of reduplication as Arnaud wants us to. These were not the only cases either. For example, we have '*band-' (Pokorny page 95; cf. Skt 'bindu').

      I am just amused by his handling of words like 'assu-' in Mitanni. He simply wants to deny that the word is a corruption of 'azva' - a case where Mitanni innovated. But mere denial does not change the situation. Mitanni uses '-asva' in names but later corrupted the word to 'assu'. It is either a case of innovation sometime during their presence in Middle East or it is a case where the word was retained in names (picked from ancient sources as the Sanskrit based names in India), while the spoken language had innovated even before the Mitannis reached their destination.

      Unless Arnaud understands that linguistics is not similar to physics, he will be finding it very tough to reconcile the various exceptions. Hence, he might simply try to banish all such words as loanwords from other languages. What he fails to see is that even a single exception to an established linguistic rule destroys its universal character. We see that most rules have exceptions. To utilise Taleb's terminology, black swans are very common in linguistics. Somehow, Aranud fails to see them. What I insist time and again is this: one cannot arbitrarily categorise some words as 'foreign' simply because they do not follow some lingusitic rule esp when we know that these rules have exceptions.

      What makes me wonder is this: why is that a person who has a working knowledge of several languages does not see the fact which is clearly visible to any linguist?

      He points out that interchange of a and i is found in Latin to explain '-piter' and 'pater'. But for the situation in Iranian (where there are words for father with 'i' as well as with 'a' and even a word - in Avestan - which has lost the vowel completely), he gives the explanation that it is because the word for father is a 'child' word. This is very similar to escapism. If such changes are simply because of the word being moulded by a child's pronunciation, why don't we find such changes in several more branches rather than only in Iranian? Arnaud fails to understand that lingusitics is not a science like physics or chemistry. You cannot mix A and B to get a definite result 'C'.

      I certainly do not expect A to even try to understand this mail. He is too set in his views to actually consider others' PoV.

      This mail is intended to for the group members who may get some clarity about the positions that we have taken in this debate.

      regards
      Ravilochanan

      P.S. I am extremely busy these days. After all, a 72-hour week job does that to any person. Therefore, I will not be actively involved in debates as I have been in the past several months. The very fact that I have replied to Arnaud's mail so late proves my situation.


      --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

      From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>
      Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian and IA
      To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, 14 July, 2010, 6:02 PM

       


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ravilochanan iyengar
      To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:07 PM
      Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
      and IA

      Laryngeal elision was not complete before the composition of RV. We see
      laryngeal remnants in both RV and Avesta (popularly called ‘laryngeal hiatus’).
      There is no laryngeal in Mitanni. If it is pre-RV as claimed by Arnaud, then
      we must be looking at some laryngeals (or their remnants) in Mitanni. But we
      do not find them.
      Ravilochanan

      ***

      There is in fact an interesting example in Genesis 31.47 of a man from NHRYM
      = northern Mesopotamia, called Sahaduta.

      There is a possibility that this name is an alteration of *Suha-data =
      Su(w)ar-data "given by the sun".

      Sahaduta is not Semitic and it could well be Mitanni-Aryan.

      As you can see here the H2 of *saH2u-"sun" is preserved.

      A.


    • Arnaud Fournet
      ... From: ravilochanan iyengar To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 1, 2010
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: ravilochanan iyengar
        To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:18 AM
        Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
        and IA



        There are so many things wrong with this 'example'.

        Gen 31.47 says that a heap of stones (as a memorial of covenant) was named
        as 'jegarsahadutha'. It does not speak about a person named 'sahadutha'. And
        even if we accept that this word is Mitanni-Aryan, 'saha' is an IA word.
        There is no need to torture it to give us '*soh2wl/*sah2vel'. It appears
        that Arnaud has simply tried to read the word as he wants it to be rather
        than what it actually is. After all, 'dUta' means messenger in Skt.
        Moreover, it is generally stated that 'Jegar-sahadutha' is Aramaic and that
        it means 'heap of witness'. Therefore, what we see here is a clear example
        of taking a word and bending it to Arnaud's will so as to suit his purpose.
        ***

        Actually it is Gen 31. 48 (!)

        A.
        ***




        As for 'dada', '*gang-' etc., a tries to explain away such words as
        reduplications. But what he fails to note is that words with two voiced
        unaspirated consonants are not non-existent. And '*gang-' means to mock (cf.
        Skt 'gaJja') and '*geng-' means lump. I dont think that we can consider them
        to be simple cases of reduplication as Arnaud wants us to.
        ***
        You don't "think" (sic), More precisely you don't want to accept that
        situation.
        And you have no alternative explanation.
        Moreover geng and gang are not cases of CvC with two voiced consonants (-n-
        in between).
        Once again you're cheating and trying to sell something that is *not* what
        you claim it is.
        A.
        ***


        These were not the only cases either. For example, we have '*band-' (Pokorny
        page 95; cf. Skt 'bindu').
        ***
        This root is more or less a complete fiction.
        Look at the data ! Three poor words which hardly match at all...
        A.
        ***



        I am just amused by his handling of words like 'assu-' in Mitanni. He simply
        wants to deny that the word is a corruption of 'azva' - a case where Mitanni
        innovated. But mere denial does not change the situation. Mitanni uses
        '-asva' in names but later corrupted the word to 'assu'. It is either a case
        of innovation sometime during their presence in Middle East or it is a case
        where the word was retained in names (picked from ancient sources as the
        Sanskrit based names in India), while the spoken language had innovated even
        before the Mitannis reached their destination.
        ***
        No
        There is no *as-v-a* with a -v-
        You're just inventing data that do not exist and misreading words in order
        to make them look like what they are not.
        The problem is neither you nor Talageri accepts reading what cuneiform
        really is. You prefer inventing your own readings that are not there in the
        first place.
        A.
        ***




        Unless Arnaud understands that linguistics is not similar to physics, he
        will be finding it very tough to reconcile the various exceptions. Hence, he
        might simply try to banish all such words as loanwords from other languages.
        What he fails to see is that even a single exception to an established
        linguistic rule destroys its universal character. We see that most rules
        have exceptions. To utilise Taleb's terminology, black swans are very common
        in linguistics. Somehow, Aranud fails to see them. What I insist time and
        again is this: one cannot arbitrarily categorise some words as 'foreign'
        simply because they do not follow some lingusitic rule esp when we know that
        these rules have exceptions.
        ***
        Your theory is inventions and fake data.
        You keep inventing words that do not exist, readings that do not exist,
        and out of your inventions, you then draw the most absurd and unsupported
        conclusions.
        Stop bragging, thanks.
        A.
        ***



        What makes me wonder is this: why is that a person who has a working
        knowledge of several languages does not see the fact which is clearly
        visible to any linguist?

        He points out that interchange of a and i is found in Latin to explain
        '-piter' and 'pater'. But for the situation in Iranian (where there are
        words for father with 'i' as well as with 'a' and even a word - in Avestan -
        which has lost the vowel completely), he gives the explanation that it is
        because the word for father is a 'child' word. This is very similar to
        escapism. If such changes are simply because of the word being moulded by a
        child's pronunciation, why don't we find such changes in several more
        branches rather than only in Iranian? Arnaud fails to understand that
        lingusitics is not a science like physics or chemistry. You cannot mix A and
        B to get a definite result 'C'.
        ***
        These isolated babytalk words prove nothing. Period.
        There's a lot to criticize in the orthodox theory of PIE but it's clear that
        nothing you say is in a position to deal the standard theory any blow.
        You still have a long way to go before you see where the cracks are in the
        standard theory.
        There are cracks for sure but you don't see them.
        A.
        ***


        I certainly do not expect A to even try to understand this mail. He is too
        set in his views to actually consider others' PoV.
        This mail is intended to for the group members who may get some clarity
        about the positions that we have taken in this debate.
        regards
        Ravilochanan
        ***
        No problem
        They will be able to see that you invent data.
        But they probably already know that feature of your theory.
        A.
        ***
      • shivkhokra
        ... From Kikkuli s horse training manual: aikawartanna (Skt: eka-vartana) panzawartana (Skt: pancha-vartana) terawartanna (Skt: tri-vartana) sattawartanna
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 9, 2010
          --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
          >
          >


          From Kikkuli's horse training manual:

          aikawartanna (Skt: eka-vartana)
          panzawartana (Skt: pancha-vartana)
          terawartanna (Skt: tri-vartana)
          sattawartanna (Skt: sapta-vartana)
          nawartana (Skt: nava-vartana)

          pancha and sapta is old indo aryan. On the other hand panza and satta is a later evolution and is middle indo aryan. People in modern punjab use the word panz for five or panch. Similarly saat is the hindi term for seven and not sapta. These are modern innovations much later then vedic period.

          Let us look at a few more examples:

          Skt=========Hurrian
          vasanasya|wasannasaya (stadium)
          rathya===|aratiyanni (cart related)
          asvani===|asuwanini (horse master)
          babhru===|babrunnu (brownish red colour)
          bharita==|baritannu (golden yellow colour)
          pingara==|pinkarannu (reddish yellow colour)
          rukma====|urukamannu (jewels)
          jira=====|Zirannu (quick)
          magha====|Makanni (gift)
          marya====|maryannu (young warrior)
          mati=====|matunni (wisdom)

          These words represent a clear borrowing from sanskrit.

          Now let us come to some king names of this epoch.

          A famous king was Atal-sen. Do you know what this means? Atal means steadfast and sen is army. This means a king having an army of steadfast soldiers.

          Similary they had a king named Bira-sen and this means a king having an army of brave soldiers.

          Sen implying Sena meaning army is middle indo aryan term for designating armies.

          I do not understand what is difficult to follow here and why are you getting so confused.

          -Shivraj


          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
          > To: <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 7:11 PM
          > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
          > and IA
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
          > > <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
          > >> ----- Original Message -----
          > >> From: ravilochanan iyengar
          > >> To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
          > >> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:30 AM
          > >> Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate
          > >> Iranian and IA
          > >> [..]
          > >> Hence, any claim that 'satta' was a
          > >> result of '-pt-' being not found in Hurrian is untenable.
          > >>
          > >> ***
          > > [..]
          > >> I understand why you refuse an internal Hurrian explanation for satta,
          > >> but
          > >> the phonology of Hurrian itself *fully accounts* for that form.
          > >> For that mattter it has no diagnostical value for Mitanni Aryan.
          > >>
          > >> I think it's high time you should try to understand what Hurrian really
          > >> is
          > >> before you start using that material for whatever purpose.
          > >>
          > >> A
          > >> ***
          > >>
          > > You really need to find out, since you are an expert on languages, what
          > > other countries besides India and the Mitanni used Satta for seven. I will
          > > try and give an analogy:
          > > a) Assume 1000 years from now: 3010 A.D.
          > > b) Everyone on the planet has forgotten about Coca Cola.
          > > c) Only language that retains it is Hindi.
          > > d) Your great great...grand child makes an argument on India Archaeology
          > > list how internal evidence in Hindi supports Coca Cola as an Indic word.
          > > e) And Lord Behold in 3011 A.D archaeologists dig the secret recipe for
          > > making coca cola in Atlanta, USA.
          > >
          > > Could any one who keeps saying that Coca Cola is a Hindi term be believed?
          > > Shivraj
          > ***
          >
          > On the same basis, some people have mentioned that Roman soldiers could have
          > eaten potatoes and drunk coffee.
          >
          > But in all cases, we can see that French caf� with initial ca- cannot be
          > inherited. If it were it should be che-
          >
          > It's normally possible to sort out potentially inherited words from
          > potentially inherited loanwords.
          > This is what wanderworts are about: widespread but usually not fitting the
          > pattern of inherited words.
          >
          > Best
          >
          > A.
          >
        • Arnaud Fournet
          ... From: shivkhokra To: Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:45 PM Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 10, 2010
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
            To: <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:45 PM
            Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
            and IA


            --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
            <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
            >
            >


            From Kikkuli's horse training manual:

            aikawartanna (Skt: eka-vartana)
            panzawartana (Skt: pancha-vartana)
            terawartanna (Skt: tri-vartana)
            sattawartanna (Skt: sapta-vartana)
            nawartana (Skt: nava-vartana)

            pancha and sapta is old indo aryan. On the other hand panza and satta is a
            later evolution and is middle indo aryan. People in modern punjab use the
            word panz for five or panch. Similarly saat is the hindi term for seven and
            not sapta. These are modern innovations much later then vedic period.
            ***
            aika- is archaic and you can't change that.
            tera is apparently tainted by Hittite.
            panza- with z = ts may also be archaic, there are some clear traces that
            Mitanni Aryan had affricates: horse is Hebrew: sus with tsamekh (< *tsuts),
            Caucasian has words like *c^wa with an affricate. Here again archaic.
            satta: we have already discussed that this form can be explained by Hurrian
            phonology which does not allow -pt-. For that matter this word does not
            prove anything.

            A.
            ***





            Let us look at a few more examples:

            Skt=========Hurrian
            vasanasya|wasannasaya (stadium)
            ***
            in fact, the word has an affricate waz- with z =dz.
            Archaic again.
            A.
            ***


            rathya===|aratiyanni (cart related)
            asvani===|asuwanini (horse master)
            ***
            As usual you are trying to distort things to make them look like what they
            are not.
            as^s^us^s^anni
            the -w- is your invention.
            A.
            ***


            babhru===|babrunnu (brownish red colour)
            bharita==|baritannu (golden yellow colour)
            ***
            in fact the correct word is Skrt palita "grey".
            A.
            ***


            pingara==|pinkarannu (reddish yellow colour)
            rukma====|urukamannu (jewels)
            jira=====|Zirannu (quick)
            ***
            This one does not seem to exist.
            A.
            ***


            magha====|Makanni (gift)
            ***
            Some people favor a Semitic origin for that word
            but I tend to think it is indeed more probably Mitanni Aryan.
            A.
            ***

            marya====|maryannu (young warrior)
            mati=====|matunni (wisdom)
            ***
            This word is most probably a cognate not a loanword.
            Moreover the phonetics is madi, there is also a verb mada "to be wise".
            A.
            ***


            These words represent a clear borrowing from sanskrit.
            ***
            No.
            A.
            ***


            Now let us come to some king names of this epoch.
            A famous king was Atal-sen. Do you know what this means? Atal means
            steadfast and sen is army. This means a king having an army of steadfast
            soldiers.
            ***
            Absurd.
            This is Hurrian Adal-Sen "Noble (is the) brother"
            A.
            ***

            Similary they had a king named Bira-sen and this means a king having an army
            of brave soldiers.
            Sen implying Sena meaning army is middle indo aryan term for designating
            armies.
            I do not understand what is difficult to follow here and why are you getting
            so confused.
            -Shivraj
            ***
            See above

            Regards.

            A.
          • shivkhokra
            ... Iranian ... is a ... the ... seven and ... that ... *tsuts), ... Hurrian ... not ... What do you mean by aika is archaic? Look at the following numerals
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 17, 2010
              --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "shivkhokra" shivkhokra@...
              > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:45 PM
              > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
              > and IA
              >
              >
              > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
              > fournet.arnaud@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > From Kikkuli's horse training manual:
              >
              > aikawartanna (Skt: eka-vartana)
              > panzawartana (Skt: pancha-vartana)
              > terawartanna (Skt: tri-vartana)
              > sattawartanna (Skt: sapta-vartana)
              > nawartana (Skt: nava-vartana)
              >
              > pancha and sapta is old indo aryan. On the other hand panza and satta is a
              > later evolution and is middle indo aryan. People in modern punjab use the
              > word panz for five or panch. Similarly saat is the hindi term for seven and
              > not sapta. These are modern innovations much later then vedic period.
              > ***
              > aika- is archaic and you can't change that.
              > tera is apparently tainted by Hittite.
              > panza- with z = ts may also be archaic, there are some clear traces that
              > Mitanni Aryan had affricates: horse is Hebrew: sus with tsamekh (< *tsuts),
              > Caucasian has words like *c^wa with an affricate. Here again archaic.
              > satta: we have already discussed that this form can be explained by Hurrian
              > phonology which does not allow -pt-. For that matter this word does not
              > prove anything.
              >

                  What do you mean by aika is archaic?  Look at the following numerals from middle indo aryan languages in and around India and figure out why is that kikkulis numerals match those of middle indo aryan languages of India?
              =================1====2 ===3 ==4=====5=====6====7===8===9====10
              Kashmiriakhzitr'ico:rpa:ncshahsate:thnawda
              Shinaêkduchecharpoi~shasâtâ~shnau~daï
              Brokskate:kdutrachhorpuñssasa:ta:stnuda:sh
              Phaluraa:kdu:tro:chu:rpa:nzhshohsa:ta:shtnu:~da:sh
              Bashkarikakdu:tha:cho:rpanjsho:satathnumdash
              Tirahiekdo:trecawo:rpancxosataxtnabdah
              Torwaliekduchachaupansho:satatno:mdash
              Wotapuriyekdu:ta:cawu:rpanzhsho:satatnaudash
              Maiya (Kohistani)akdu:tha:saurpa:nzsho:hsa:ta:thnau~dash
              Kalashaekdutrechaupoñshosatashtdash
              Khowarijutroychhorponjchhoysotoshtnyufjosh
              Dameliekdu:trâcho:rpâ~chshosatashtnõ:dash
              Gawar-batiyokdu:lyecu:rpo:ncshuo:seto:stnu:~dosh
              Pashaii:do:trächa:rpanjachhasa:taa:shtana:wda:y
              Shumashtiyäkdu:lyycöuurpo:nshoosaâshtnu:däs
              Nangalamiyakdu:sle:chuorpanso:satõ:stnu:~das
              Dumakiekduicaichouurpoishasotoshtnaudai
              Western
              Marathiekdonti:ncharpacsehasatathneudeha
              Konkaniêkdôntincharpanchsatatthnovdha
              Sindhihikubbati:ca:repañjachasataathanavaddaha
              Khatrihakrobotrêchárpanjchosatathnu
              Lahndahikkdo:e:trächa:rpañch`e:sattatt`nå~da:h
              Central
              Hindi/ Urduekdoti:nca:rpã:cchaisa:ta:thnaudas
              Paryayekdotincharpanjchhesatatnudas
              Punjabiykdotyncarpeñjchesetetnewngdes
              Siraikihikdutreca:rpañjchisatathnaõdah
              Gujaratiekbetreñcarpãcchesatathnevdes
              Rajasthani (Marwari)e:kdo:yti:nchya:rpã:chch`awsa:ta:t`nawdas
              Banjari (Lamani)ekditincaarpaancchosaataaTnawdas
              Malvie:kdo:ti:ncha:rpã:chch`e:sa:ta:t`nawdas
              Bhilie:kbe:te:n.sya:rpã:sso:xa:ta:t`nawdax
              Dogriikdo:traicha:rpañjch`e:satat`naudas
              Kumaunie:kdwi:ti:ncha:rpã:chch`aisa:ta:t`naudas
              Garhwalie:kdwi:ti:ncha:rpã:chch`ai:sa:ta:t`naudas
              W Paharie:kduico:ntsa:rpa:ndztsho:sa:ta:t:hno:do:sh
              Khandeshie:kdo:nti:ncha:rpa:chch`asa:ta:t`naüdas
              East Central
              Nepaliekduitincha:rpa:nchchasa:ta:tnaudas
              Maithiliekdu:ti:ncha:ripã:chch`a:sa:ta:t'náudash
              Magahiekdu:ti:nca:rpa:ñcchausata:thnaudas
              Bhojpurie:kduiti:nca:ripã:cchæsa:ta:thnaodas
              Awadhi (Kosali)e:kduiti:nica:ripã:ccha:sa:ta:thnuudus
              Chattisgarhie:kduiti:ncha:rpã:chch`e:sa:ta:t`no:das
              Eastern
              Oriyaekdu'itinichaaripaanjchcha'asaataathna'adash
              Bengaliækduitincarpãcchoysatatnoydosh
              Assameseekduitinisaripãsseixatathnedeh
              Mayanga:du:tinsa:ripa:zsoyha:da:tnaudos





              > Let us look at a few more examples:
              [..] Removed some sanskrit hurrian concordances and will discuss them in a separate message.
              >

              > Now let us come to some king names of this epoch.
              > A famous king was Atal-sen. Do you know what this means? Atal means
              > steadfast and sen is army. This means a king having an army of steadfast
              > soldiers.
              > ***
              > Absurd.
              > This is Hurrian Adal-Sen "Noble (is the) brother"
              > A.
              > ***
                
                 Absurd. Adal is old german and is attested to only in second half of first millenium AD. There was no German 2500 years earlier i.e in 2000 B.C. when both Birasen and Atalsen ruled. These names are sandhis of  (Bir) brave and (Atal) immovable respectively with army.  
               
              >
              > Similary they had a king named Bira-sen and this means a king having an army
              > of brave soldiers.
              > Sen implying Sena meaning army is middle indo aryan term for designating
              > armies.
              > I do not understand what is difficult to follow here and why are you getting
              > so confused.
              > -Shivraj
              > ***
              > See above
              >
              > Regards.
              >
              > A.
              >
            • Arnaud Fournet
              ... From: shivkhokra To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 18, 2010
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: shivkhokra
                To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:12 PM
                Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
                and IA



                >
                > From Kikkuli's horse training manual:
                >
                > aikawartanna (Skt: eka-vartana)
                > panzawartana (Skt: pancha-vartana)
                > terawartanna (Skt: tri-vartana)
                > sattawartanna (Skt: sapta-vartana)
                > nawartana (Skt: nava-vartana)
                >
                > pancha and sapta is old indo aryan. On the other hand panza and satta is a
                > later evolution and is middle indo aryan. People in modern punjab use the
                > word panz for five or panch. Similarly saat is the hindi term for seven
                > and
                > not sapta. These are modern innovations much later then vedic period.
                > ***
                > aika- is archaic and you can't change that.
                > tera is apparently tainted by Hittite.
                > panza- with z = ts may also be archaic, there are some clear traces that
                > Mitanni Aryan had affricates: horse is Hebrew: sus with tsamekh (<
                > *tsuts),
                > Caucasian has words like *c^wa with an affricate. Here again archaic.
                > satta: we have already discussed that this form can be explained by
                > Hurrian
                > phonology which does not allow -pt-. For that matter this word does not
                > prove anything.
                >

                What do you mean by aika is archaic? Look at the following numerals
                from middle indo aryan languages in and around India and figure out why is
                that kikkulis numerals match those of middle indo aryan languages of India?
                ***

                As far as I can see,
                none of these languages has *aika, and this is quite logical as they all
                originate in a language where *aika had become e:ka: that is post-Mitanni
                "Vedic".

                none of them has Hurrian *tera-

                They have panc^ and naw- which prove nothing.

                As mentioned before a billion times, Hurrian does not accept the
                sequence -pt-: hence sapta > *sata written sa-at-ta.

                So?

                A.
                ***







                > Let us look at a few more examples:
                [..] Removed some sanskrit hurrian concordances and will discuss them in a
                separate message.
                >

                > Now let us come to some king names of this epoch.
                > A famous king was Atal-sen. Do you know what this means? Atal means
                > steadfast and sen is army. This means a king having an army of steadfast
                > soldiers.
                > ***
                > Absurd.
                > This is Hurrian Adal-Sen "Noble (is the) brother"
                > A.
                > ***

                Absurd. Adal is old german and is attested to only in second half of
                first millenium AD. There was no German 2500 years earlier i.e in 2000 B.C.
                when both Birasen and Atalsen ruled. These names are sandhis of (Bir) brave
                and (Atal) immovable respectively with army.

                ***
                Hurrian Adal translates Akkadian gas^ru in bilinguals: "strong, powerful,
                noble".

                Period.

                Your etymologies are just nonsense.

                A.
                ***
              • shivkhokra
                ... Wrong. Sequence pt is attested in Hurrian. Look at the hurrian word uruhpti. All your explanataions about satta can be tossed. PS: will talk about kings in
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 19, 2010
                  --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As mentioned before a billion times, Hurrian does not accept the
                  > sequence -pt-: hence sapta > *sata written sa-at-ta.
                  >
                  > So?
                  >
                  > A.
                  > ***
                  >

                  Wrong. Sequence pt is attested in Hurrian. Look at the hurrian word uruhpti. All your explanataions about satta can be tossed.


                  PS: will talk about kings in another post.
                • Arnaud Fournet
                  ... From: shivkhokra To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:05 PM Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 19, 2010
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
                    To: <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:05 PM
                    Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian
                    and IA


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
                    > <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> As mentioned before a billion times, Hurrian does not accept the
                    >> sequence -pt-: hence sapta > *sata written sa-at-ta.
                    >>
                    >> So?
                    >>
                    >> A.
                    >> ***
                    >>
                    >
                    > Wrong. Sequence pt is attested in Hurrian. Look at the hurrian word
                    > uruhpti. All your explanations about satta can be tossed.
                    >
                    ***

                    Apparently you still fail to accept that Cuneiform lumps together all
                    sequences like -p-t-, -b-d-, or even possibly -w-t-, -w-d-

                    So there is utterly no possibility to really assert that -pt- is anything
                    but a reading convention.

                    Moreover this word uruhpti strikes me as impossible.

                    I suppose you mean urhubdi- contraction of urhu-badi- "truth"
                    There is not -pt- here.
                    ur-hu-ub-du-s^i-li-we Mitanni III 64 with -b-d-.


                    Another example is ha-ab-te "bracelet"
                    It's unclear what relationship this word has with habalgi "iron".
                    It's unclear if ha-ab-te should be read hapti or habdi or hawdi.
                    This word is attested only once.
                    It does not look native as the suffix -ti or di is usually preceded by a
                    vowel, like a or i.

                    The only clusters that are well attested are -tk- (apparently native)
                    and -ps^-, -bz^- (very often attested in Akkadian loanwords).

                    Akk. libittu "brick" > alibz^i

                    Very often you can tell a loanword just because it displays a rather odd
                    combination of consonants.

                    I maintain that -pt- is just impossible in that language.


                    A.
                  • shivraj singh
                    ... We will get to uruhpti in a second. Though you should realize that using your argument given above one could say that your claim pt is not attested in
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 20, 2010


                      --- On Fri, 8/20/10, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

                      > From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a separate Iranian and IA
                      > To: IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
                      > Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 10:26 AM
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----- From: "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...>
                      > To: <IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:05 PM
                      > Subject: [Ind-Arch] Re: A few other Isoglosses supporting a
                      > separate Iranian and IA
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com,
                      > "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> As mentioned before a billion times, Hurrian does
                      > not accept the
                      > >> sequence -pt-: hence sapta > *sata written
                      > sa-at-ta.
                      > >>
                      > >> So?
                      > >>
                      > >> A.
                      > >> ***
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >  Wrong. Sequence pt is attested in Hurrian. Look
                      > at the hurrian word uruhpti. All your explanations about
                      > satta can be tossed.
                      > >
                      > ***
                      >
                      > Apparently you still fail to accept that Cuneiform lumps
                      > together all sequences like -p-t-, -b-d-, or even possibly
                      > -w-t-, -w-d-
                      >
                      > So there is utterly no possibility to really assert that
                      > -pt- is anything but a reading convention.
                      >
                      > Moreover this word uruhpti strikes me as impossible.

                      We will get to uruhpti in a second. Though you should realize that using your argument given above one could say that your claim pt is not attested in Hurrian is not solid since Cuneiform lumps together all sequences like -p-t-, -b-d-, or even possibly -w-t-, -w-d-

                      Let us leave this for a moment and concentrate on some other words.

                      >
                      > I maintain that -pt- is just impossible in that language.
                      >
                        Never say never again! Have you looked at the hurrian word saptamenzu ?

                        What do you make of this Hurrian sentence?
                      asma wa hatti hinduwa zahhiya pait nuwasmas peraan epten nuwar as walhten (pardon the lack of diacritics).

                        Who are the hinduwa?

                      -Shivraj

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