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64 High Speed Shake

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  • Joseph Strickland
    One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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      One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.

      Joe


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul Wentink
      Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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        Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.


        Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.


        A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?


        Good luck and let us know what you find.


        Paul W.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Joseph Strickland <strijw426@...>
        To: Imperial-Mail-List <imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
        Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake





        One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.

        Joe

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John L. Chesnutt
        Paul noted that an out of balance drum could be the problem. This happened to me 30 years ago on our 1957 300C. I had a machine shop replace both front
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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          Paul noted that an "out of balance drum" could be the problem.
          This happened to me 30 years ago on our 1957 300C. I had a machine shop replace both front drums. When they pressed them on the hub, they did not check them on the lathe to see if they were heavy on one side.

          At speeds over 70 MPH the front end would shake. Ended up taking the drums to a speed shop to have them balanced. They welded weights on the drum instead on drilling holes or grinding to balance. They were way out of balance. Still have our 300C.

          John C.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wentink
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 5:16 AM
          To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake

          Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.


          Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.


          A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?


          Good luck and let us know what you find.


          Paul W.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Joseph Strickland <strijw426@...>
          To: Imperial-Mail-List <imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
          Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake





          One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.

          Joe

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

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        • watchfatha
          Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined to adopt, although I don t agree that there is no productive end to back and forth
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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            Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly appreciate them.

            As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold, which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump, no?

            This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same tires, does so.

            An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.

            More when I learn it.
            Norm

            --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink <randalpark@...> wrote:
            >
            > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
            >
            >
            > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.
            >
            >
            > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
            >
            >
            > Good luck and let us know what you find.
            >
            >
            > Paul W.
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Joseph Strickland <strijw426@...>
            > To: Imperial-Mail-List <imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
            > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.
            >
            > Joe
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • George McCollam
            Hello All Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around the
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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              Hello All
              Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
              possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
              the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
              like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
              harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
              Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
              missing?
              I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
              George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)





              On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha <watchfatha@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
              > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
              > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
              > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
              > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
              > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
              > appreciate them.
              >
              > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
              > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
              > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
              > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
              > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
              > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
              > no?
              >
              > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
              > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
              > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
              > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
              > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
              > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
              > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
              > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
              > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
              > tires, does so.
              >
              > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
              > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
              > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
              > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
              > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
              > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
              > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
              > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
              > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
              >
              > More when I learn it.
              > Norm
              >
              > --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
              > >
              > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
              > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
              > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
              > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
              > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
              > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
              > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
              > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
              > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
              > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
              > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
              > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
              > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
              > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
              > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
              > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
              > >
              > >
              > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
              > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
              > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
              > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
              > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
              > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
              > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
              > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
              > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
              > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
              > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
              > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
              > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
              > over and over again.
              > >
              > >
              > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
              > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
              > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
              > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
              > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
              > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
              > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
              > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
              > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
              > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
              > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
              > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
              > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
              > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
              > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
              > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
              > >
              > >
              > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
              > >
              > >
              > > Paul W.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Joseph Strickland
              > > To: Imperial-Mail-List imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
              > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
              > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
              > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
              > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
              > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
              > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
              > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
              > condition.
              > >
              > > Joe
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul Wentink
              Just keep us all posted Norm, like I said I as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. You re right the e-mail exchanges are really great. Paul W. ... From:
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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                Just keep us all posted Norm, like I said I as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. You're right the e-mail exchanges are really great.


                Paul W.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: watchfatha <watchfatha@...>
                To: Imperial-Club <Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 4:56 pm
                Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake





                Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly appreciate them.

                As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold, which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump, no?

                This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same tires, does so.

                An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.

                More when I learn it.
                Norm

                --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                >
                > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have experienced a shak e that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                >
                >
                > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.
                >
                >
                > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                >
                >
                > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                >
                >
                > Paul W.
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Joseph Strickland
                > To: Imperial-Mail-List imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.
                >
                > Joe
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • john sadowski
                Since it’s a convertible, are the tuning weights in Place? John From: Paul Wentink Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:16 AM To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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                • 0 Attachment
                  Since it’s a convertible, are the tuning weights in Place?

                  John

                  From: Paul Wentink
                  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:16 AM
                  To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake


                  Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.

                  Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.

                  A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?

                  Good luck and let us know what you find.

                  Paul W.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Joseph Strickland mailto:strijw426%40yahoo.com>
                  To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                  Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake

                  One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.

                  Joe

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Philip Daniels
                   on a smooth blacktop road, loose suspension parts shouldnt  be too noticable.  put the car on a lift and look at wheels, driveshaft. rear axles, motor,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 1, 2013
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                     on a smooth blacktop road, loose suspension parts shouldnt  be too noticable.  put the car on a lift and look at wheels, driveshaft. rear axles, motor, have some one  in car running at various speeds. possibly you can find problem. on the road,  check speeds in various gears for a shake. engine accesories can cause shakes

                    --- On Fri, 3/1/13, Paul Wentink <randalpark@...> wrote:


                    From: Paul Wentink <randalpark@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                    To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 8:25 PM



                     



                    Just keep us all posted Norm, like I said I as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. You're right the e-mail exchanges are really great.

                    Paul W.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: watchfatha watchfatha@...>
                    To: Imperial-Club Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 4:56 pm
                    Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake

                    Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly appreciate them.

                    As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold, which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump, no?

                    This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same tires, does so.

                    An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.

                    More when I learn it.
                    Norm

                    --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                    >
                    > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually. We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I have
                    experienced a shak e that only happened when the road was dry. Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                    >
                    >
                    > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new. This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues over and over again.
                    >
                    >
                    > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                    stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                    >
                    >
                    > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                    >
                    >
                    > Paul W.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Joseph Strickland
                    > To: Imperial-Mail-List imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                    > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts. When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this condition.
                    >
                    > Joe
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • letterl300
                    Norm: After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 2, 2013
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                      Norm:

                      After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.

                      Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.

                      Will be very interested in hearing the answer........

                      Dan Richardson
                      300L Family Heirloom


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "George McCollam" <mccollamge@...>
                      To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake

                      Hello All
                      Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                      possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                      the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                      like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                      harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                      Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                      missing?
                      I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                      George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)





                      On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha <watchfatha@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                      > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                      > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                      > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                      > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                      > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                      > appreciate them.
                      >
                      > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                      > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                      > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                      > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                      > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                      > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                      > no?
                      >
                      > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                      > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                      > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                      > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                      > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                      > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                      > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                      > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                      > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                      > tires, does so.
                      >
                      > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                      > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                      > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                      > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                      > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                      > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                      > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                      > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                      > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                      >
                      > More when I learn it.
                      > Norm
                      >
                      > --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                      > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                      > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                      > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                      > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                      > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                      > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                      > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                      > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                      > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                      > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                      > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                      > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                      > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                      > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                      > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                      > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                      > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                      > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                      > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                      > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                      > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                      > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                      > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                      > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                      > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                      > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                      > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                      > over and over again.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                      > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                      > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                      > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                      > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                      > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                      > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                      > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                      > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                      > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                      > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                      > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                      > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                      > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                      > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                      > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Paul W.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Joseph Strickland
                      > > To: Imperial-Mail-List imperial-club@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                      > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                      > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                      > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                      > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                      > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                      > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                      > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                      > condition.
                      > >
                      > > Joe
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • john sadowski
                      I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 2, 2013
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.

                        John

                        From: therichardsonfamily@...
                        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                        To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake



                        Norm:

                        After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.

                        Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.

                        Will be very interested in hearing the answer........

                        Dan Richardson
                        300L Family Heirloom

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>
                        To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake

                        Hello All
                        Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                        possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                        the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                        like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                        harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                        Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                        missing?
                        I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                        George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)

                        On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                        > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                        > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                        > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                        > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                        > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                        > appreciate them.
                        >
                        > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                        > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                        > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                        > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                        > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                        > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                        > no?
                        >
                        > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                        > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                        > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                        > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                        > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                        > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                        > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                        > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                        > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                        > tires, does so.
                        >
                        > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                        > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                        > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                        > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                        > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                        > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                        > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                        > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                        > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                        >
                        > More when I learn it.
                        > Norm
                        >
                        > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                        > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                        > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                        > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                        > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                        > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                        > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                        > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                        > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                        > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                        > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                        > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                        > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                        > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                        > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                        > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                        > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                        > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                        > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                        > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                        > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                        > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                        > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                        > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                        > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                        > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                        > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                        > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                        > over and over again.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                        > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                        > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                        > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                        > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                        > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                        > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                        > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                        > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                        > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                        > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                        > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                        > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                        > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                        > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                        > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Paul W.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Joseph Strickland
                        > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                        > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                        > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                        > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                        > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                        > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                        > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                        > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                        > condition.
                        > >
                        > > Joe
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • watchfatha
                        All 4 in place. FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 2, 2013
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                        • 0 Attachment
                          All 4 in place.
                          FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                          Norm

                          --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" <jsadowski@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > From: therichardsonfamily@...
                          > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                          > To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Norm:
                          >
                          > After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.
                          >
                          > Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.
                          >
                          > Will be very interested in hearing the answer........
                          >
                          > Dan Richardson
                          > 300L Family Heirloom
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>
                          > To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                          >
                          > Hello All
                          > Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                          > possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                          > the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                          > like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                          > harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                          > Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                          > missing?
                          > I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                          > George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)
                          >
                          > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                          > > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                          > > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                          > > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                          > > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                          > > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                          > > appreciate them.
                          > >
                          > > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                          > > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                          > > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                          > > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                          > > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                          > > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                          > > no?
                          > >
                          > > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                          > > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                          > > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                          > > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                          > > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                          > > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                          > > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                          > > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                          > > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                          > > tires, does so.
                          > >
                          > > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                          > > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                          > > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                          > > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                          > > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                          > > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                          > > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                          > > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                          > > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                          > >
                          > > More when I learn it.
                          > > Norm
                          > >
                          > > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                          > > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                          > > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                          > > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                          > > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                          > > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                          > > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                          > > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                          > > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                          > > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                          > > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                          > > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                          > > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                          > > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                          > > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                          > > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                          > > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                          > > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                          > > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                          > > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                          > > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                          > > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                          > > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                          > > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                          > > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                          > > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                          > > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                          > > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                          > > over and over again.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                          > > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                          > > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                          > > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                          > > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                          > > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                          > > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                          > > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                          > > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                          > > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                          > > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                          > > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                          > > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                          > > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                          > > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                          > > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Paul W.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: Joseph Strickland
                          > > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                          > > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                          > > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                          > > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                          > > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                          > > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                          > > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                          > > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                          > > condition.
                          > > >
                          > > > Joe
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Dan Richardson
                          Hmmm..... you ve certainly done a great job covering all the bases! Now I am just left with betting on the answer - I have nothing more to offer. I ll put my
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hmmm..... you've certainly done a great job covering all the bases! Now I am just left with betting on the answer - I have nothing more to offer. I'll put my money on drum springs or other wheel / drum / bearing balance issue. We'll all stay tuned.......

                            Dan Richardson
                            Family H!eirloom

                            Sent from my MOTOROLA ATRIX™ HD on AT&T

                            watchfatha <watchfatha@...> wrote:


                            >
                            >All 4 in place.
                            >FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                            >Norm
                            >
                            >--- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                            >>
                            >> John
                            >>
                            >> From: therichardsonfamily@...
                            >> Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                            >> To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Norm:
                            >>
                            >> After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.
                            >>
                            >> Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.
                            >>
                            >> Will be very interested in hearing the answer........
                            >>
                            >> Dan Richardson
                            >> 300L Family Heirloom
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>
                            >> To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                            >> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                            >> Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                            >>
                            >> Hello All
                            >> Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                            >> possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                            >> the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                            >> like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                            >> harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                            >> Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                            >> missing?
                            >> I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                            >> George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)
                            >>
                            >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> > **
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                            >> > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                            >> > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                            >> > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                            >> > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                            >> > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                            >> > appreciate them.
                            >> >
                            >> > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                            >> > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                            >> > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                            >> > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                            >> > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                            >> > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                            >> > no?
                            >> >
                            >> > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                            >> > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                            >> > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                            >> > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                            >> > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                            >> > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                            >> > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                            >> > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                            >> > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                            >> > tires, does so.
                            >> >
                            >> > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                            >> > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                            >> > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                            >> > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                            >> > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                            >> > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                            >> > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                            >> > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                            >> > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                            >> >
                            >> > More when I learn it.
                            >> > Norm
                            >> >
                            >> > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                            >> > >
                            >> > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                            >> > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                            >> > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                            >> > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                            >> > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                            >> > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                            >> > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                            >> > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                            >> > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                            >> > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                            >> > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                            >> > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                            >> > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                            >> > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                            >> > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                            >> > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                            >> > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                            >> > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                            >> > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                            >> > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                            >> > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                            >> > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                            >> > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                            >> > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                            >> > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                            >> > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                            >> > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                            >> > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                            >> > over and over again.
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                            >> > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                            >> > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                            >> > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                            >> > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                            >> > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                            >> > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                            >> > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                            >> > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                            >> > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                            >> > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                            >> > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                            >> > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                            >> > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                            >> > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                            >> > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > Paul W.
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > -----Original Message-----
                            >> > > From: Joseph Strickland
                            >> > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >> > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                            >> > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                            >> > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                            >> > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                            >> > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                            >> > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                            >> > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                            >> > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                            >> > condition.
                            >> > >
                            >> > > Joe
                            >> > >
                            >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >> > >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Paul Wentink
                            Don t these exist only on convertibles? Over the years I have been pretty much everywhere a person can go (hidden recesses, fender wells, etc.) in my Imperial
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                              Don't these exist only on convertibles? Over the years I have been pretty much everywhere a person can go (hidden recesses, fender wells, etc.) in my Imperial hard tops and sedans and found no evidence of these whatsoever.


                              Paul W.



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: john sadowski <jsadowski@...>
                              To: Imperial-Club <Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2013 10:10 am
                              Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake





                              I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.

                              John

                              From: therichardsonfamily@...
                              Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                              To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake

                              Norm:

                              After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.

                              Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.

                              Will be very interested in hearing the answer........

                              Dan Richardson
                              300L Family Heirloom

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>;
                              To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake

                              Hello All
                              Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                              possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                              the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                              like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                              harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                              Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                              missing?
                              I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                              George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)

                              On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com>; wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                              > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                              > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                              > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                              > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                              > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                              > appreciate them.
                              >
                              > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                              > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                              > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                              > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                              > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                              > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                              > no?
                              >
                              > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                              > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                              > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                              > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                              > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                              > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                              > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                              > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                              > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                              > tires, does so.
                              >
                              > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                              > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                              > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                              > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                              > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                              > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                              > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                              > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                              > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                              >
                              > More when I learn it.
                              > Norm
                              >
                              > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                              > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                              > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                              > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                              > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                              > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                              > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                              > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                              > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                              > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                              > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                              > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                              > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                              > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                              > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                              > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                              > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                              > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                              > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                              > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                              > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                              > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                              > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                              > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                              > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                              > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                              > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                              > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                              > over and over again.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                              > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                              > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                              > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                              > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                              > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                              > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                              > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                              > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                              > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                              > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                              > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                              > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                              > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                              > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                              > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Paul W.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Joseph Strickland
                              > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>;
                              > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                              > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                              > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                              > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                              > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                              > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                              > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                              > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                              > condition.
                              > >
                              > > Joe
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Paul Wentink
                              I hate to admit this, I ll have to look closer under the car. I can t picture what these look like or where they are placed. Paul W. ... From: watchfatha
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                                I hate to admit this, I'll have to look closer under the car. I can't picture what these look like or where they are placed.


                                Paul W.



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: watchfatha <watchfatha@...>
                                To: Imperial-Club <Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2013 6:46 pm
                                Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake





                                All 4 in place.
                                FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                                Norm

                                --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" wrote:
                                >
                                > I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > From: therichardsonfamily@...
                                > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                                > To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Norm:
                                >
                                > After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.
                                >
                                > Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.
                                >
                                > Will be very interested in hearing the answer........
                                >
                                > Dan Richardson
                                > 300L Family Heirloom
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>;
                                > To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                >
                                > Hello All
                                > Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                                > possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                                > the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                                > like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                                > harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                                > Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                                > missing?
                                > I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                                > George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)
                                >
                                > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com>; wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                                > > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                                > > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                                > > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                                > > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                                > > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                                > > appreciate them.
                                > >
                                > > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                                > > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                                > > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                                > > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                                > > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                                > > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                                > > no?
                                > >
                                > > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                                > > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                                > > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                                > > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                                > > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                                > > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                                > > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                                > > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                                > > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                                > > tires, does so.
                                > >
                                > > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                                > > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                                > > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                                > > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                                > > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                                > > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                                > > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                                > > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                                > > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                                > >
                                > > More when I learn it.
                                > > Norm
                                > >
                                > > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                                > > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                                > > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                                > > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                                > > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                                > > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                                > > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                                > > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                                > > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                                > > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                                > > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                                > > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                                > > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                                > > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                                > > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                                > > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                                > > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                                > > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                                > > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                                > > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                                > > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                                > > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                                > > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                                > > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                                > > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                                > > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                                > > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                                > > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                                > > over and over again.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                                > > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                                > > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                                > > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                                > > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                                > > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                                > > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                                > > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                                > > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                                > > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                                > > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                                > > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                                > > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                                > > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                                > > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                                > > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Paul W.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: Joseph Strickland
                                > > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                > > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                                > > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                                > > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                                > > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                                > > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                                > > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                                > > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                                > > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                                > > condition.
                                > > >
                                > > > Joe
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >









                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • retromobilia@...
                                Indeed! Please let us know the resolution (what it was and fix )! J ... From: Dan Richardson To:
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                                  Indeed! Please let us know the resolution (what it was and fix )!
                                  J


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Dan Richardson" <therichardsonfamily@...>
                                  To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 4:39:50 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake






                                  Hmmm..... you've certainly done a great job covering all the bases! Now I am just left with betting on the answer - I have nothing more to offer. I'll put my money on drum springs or other wheel / drum / bearing balance issue. We'll all stay tuned.......

                                  Dan Richardson
                                  Family H!eirloom

                                  Sent from my MOTOROLA ATRIX™ HD on AT&T


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • watchfatha
                                  Paul. If you don t have a convertible, don t bother-these are convertible only items. On the back,outside and under the trunk floor you can see them as
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                                    Paul.
                                    If you don't have a convertible, don't bother-these are convertible only items.
                                    On the back,outside and under the trunk floor you can see them as elongated blocks/weights with two bolt holes recessed in them. They are at the outer ends of the trunk floor on either side. In the front, they are bolted in place INSIDE the face bar. The only way to see them is to get down on the ground and look UPWARDS at the tip of the bumper end and you'll see something that presents itself in the hollow space on the point of the fender, where it meets the face bar.
                                    FYI, the 4 door Lincoln converts had something similar, and for a similar reason-to damp out unwanted chassis vibrations. Interestingly, those were Unibody cars, not frame cars like our Imperials. More interesting, I don't think the 67/68 Imperial converts needed or got them, even though they were also Unibody cars.

                                    --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink <randalpark@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I hate to admit this, I'll have to look closer under the car. I can't picture what these look like or where they are placed.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Paul W.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: watchfatha <watchfatha@...>
                                    > To: Imperial-Club <Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2013 6:46 pm
                                    > Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > All 4 in place.
                                    > FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                                    > Norm
                                    >
                                    > --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                                    > >
                                    > > John
                                    > >
                                    > > From: therichardsonfamily@
                                    > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                                    > > To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Norm:
                                    > >
                                    > > After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.
                                    > >
                                    > > Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.
                                    > >
                                    > > Will be very interested in hearing the answer........
                                    > >
                                    > > Dan Richardson
                                    > > 300L Family Heirloom
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>;
                                    > > To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All
                                    > > Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                                    > > possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                                    > > the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                                    > > like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                                    > > harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                                    > > Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                                    > > missing?
                                    > > I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                                    > > George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)
                                    > >
                                    > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com>; wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > **
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                                    > > > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                                    > > > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                                    > > > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                                    > > > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                                    > > > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                                    > > > appreciate them.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                                    > > > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                                    > > > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                                    > > > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                                    > > > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                                    > > > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                                    > > > no?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                                    > > > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                                    > > > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                                    > > > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                                    > > > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                                    > > > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                                    > > > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                                    > > > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                                    > > > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                                    > > > tires, does so.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                                    > > > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                                    > > > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                                    > > > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                                    > > > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                                    > > > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                                    > > > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                                    > > > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                                    > > > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > More when I learn it.
                                    > > > Norm
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                                    > > > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                                    > > > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                                    > > > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                                    > > > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                                    > > > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                                    > > > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                                    > > > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                                    > > > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                                    > > > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                                    > > > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                                    > > > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                                    > > > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                                    > > > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                                    > > > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                                    > > > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                                    > > > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                                    > > > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                                    > > > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                                    > > > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                                    > > > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                                    > > > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                                    > > > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                                    > > > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                                    > > > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                                    > > > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                                    > > > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                                    > > > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                                    > > > over and over again.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                                    > > > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                                    > > > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                                    > > > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                                    > > > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                                    > > > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                                    > > > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                                    > > > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                                    > > > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                                    > > > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                                    > > > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                                    > > > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                                    > > > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                                    > > > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                                    > > > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                                    > > > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Paul W.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > From: Joseph Strickland
                                    > > > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                    > > > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                                    > > > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                                    > > > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                                    > > > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                                    > > > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                                    > > > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                                    > > > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                                    > > > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                                    > > > condition.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Joe
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • augapfel
                                    Yes, the Lincoln convertibles did have the weights. My ex-FIL had a 61 that I brought back from the dead and I was over every inch of that car. When I first
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                                      Yes, the Lincoln convertibles did have the weights. My ex-FIL had a 61 that I brought back from the dead and I was over every inch of that car.

                                      When I first saw the weights I was astounded. The fronts were cast iron discs about 8" in diameter and 3" thick! Each was suspended from a ell-shaped length of spring steel via a hole drilled and tapped in the top, center of the weight. One small area on the edge of the disc was machined to be flat and another bracket held a piece of brake lining material against the flat spot so the weights could oscillate but their motion was dampened. The rears were more-or-less rectangular blobs, on shorter brackets, and I can't remember if they were dampened.

                                      Years later when I was working as a contractor for GM I interacted with engineers who were responsible for interior trim parts. These guys had to sweat all kinds of parameters like flammability, sound dampening, cost, and weight. One guy was bummed out because his design for a kick panel was over weight by grams and he'd have to go back and revise the design. I thought back to those big honkin' cast iron weights at all 4 corners of that Lincoln convertible and had to laugh. Over weight by grams...

                                      Maybe the funniest part was that the Lincoln convertibles (61s at least) had cast *aluminum* front brake drums with a cast-in-place iron shoe contact band. The reason that only convertibles got them (they were expensive) -- TO SAVE WEIGHT. LOL

                                      Pete in PA


                                      From: watchfatha
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 4:26 PM
                                      To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake- Tuning Weights



                                      Paul.
                                      If you don't have a convertible, don't bother-these are convertible only items.
                                      On the back,outside and under the trunk floor you can see them as elongated blocks/weights with two bolt holes recessed in them. They are at the outer ends of the trunk floor on either side. In the front, they are bolted in place INSIDE the face bar. The only way to see them is to get down on the ground and look UPWARDS at the tip of the bumper end and you'll see something that presents itself in the hollow space on the point of the fender, where it meets the face bar.
                                      FYI, the 4 door Lincoln converts had something similar, and for a similar reason-to damp out unwanted chassis vibrations. Interestingly, those were Unibody cars, not frame cars like our Imperials. More interesting, I don't think the 67/68 Imperial converts needed or got them, even though they were also Unibody cars.

                                      --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I hate to admit this, I'll have to look closer under the car. I can't picture what these look like or where they are placed.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Paul W.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: watchfatha
                                      > To: Imperial-Club Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2013 6:46 pm
                                      > Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > All 4 in place.
                                      > FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                                      > Norm
                                      >
                                      > --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                                      > >
                                      > > John


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • retromobilia@...
                                      Was the purpose of these weights, in the front and the rear, to counter leverage the sag in the center when passengers loaded the center of the frame or unit
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 3, 2013
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                                        Was the purpose of these weights, in the front and the rear, to counter leverage the sag in the center when passengers loaded the center of the frame or unit body in place of the top support and b pillar? You talk about vibration but how would this stop that unless there was an osculation / flex in the center of the body.
                                        Once upon a time I had a 60 vert (mopar unit body in 1960) which was having and oil change on a ramp lift at the gas station. (when they had such service) At the time I smoked Camels XXX and I opened the drivers door to fetch my pack. When closing the door there was a thud. The flex was so great that the door latch hit the sheet-metal and the door could not be closed until the car was on the ground??!
                                        Is this the sort of thing these weights were purposed for?
                                        The weight savings in the aluminum wheels was unsprung weight not to be confused with body/sprung weight.
                                        J

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: peterengel@...
                                        To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 1:54:15 PM
                                        Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake- Tuning Weights






                                        Yes, the Lincoln convertibles did have the weights. My ex-FIL had a 61 that I brought back from the dead and I was over every inch of that car.

                                        When I first saw the weights I was astounded. The fronts were cast iron discs about 8" in diameter and 3" thick! Each was suspended from a ell-shaped length of spring steel via a hole drilled and tapped in the top, center of the weight. One small area on the edge of the disc was machined to be flat and another bracket held a piece of brake lining material against the flat spot so the weights could oscillate but their motion was dampened. The rears were more-or-less rectangular blobs, on shorter brackets, and I can't remember if they were dampened.

                                        Years later when I was working as a contractor for GM I interacted with engineers who were responsible for interior trim parts. These guys had to sweat all kinds of parameters like flammability, sound dampening, cost, and weight. One guy was bummed out because his design for a kick panel was over weight by grams and he'd have to go back and revise the design. I thought back to those big honkin' cast iron weights at all 4 corners of that Lincoln convertible and had to laugh. Over weight by grams...

                                        Maybe the funniest part was that the Lincoln convertibles (61s at least) had cast *aluminum* front brake drums with a cast-in-place iron shoe contact band. The reason that only convertibles got them (they were expensive) -- TO SAVE WEIGHT. LOL

                                        Pete in PA

                                        From: watchfatha
                                        Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 4:26 PM
                                        To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake- Tuning Weights

                                        Paul.
                                        If you don't have a convertible, don't bother-these are convertible only items.
                                        On the back,outside and under the trunk floor you can see them as elongated blocks/weights with two bolt holes recessed in them. They are at the outer ends of the trunk floor on either side. In the front, they are bolted in place INSIDE the face bar. The only way to see them is to get down on the ground and look UPWARDS at the tip of the bumper end and you'll see something that presents itself in the hollow space on the point of the fender, where it meets the face bar.
                                        FYI, the 4 door Lincoln converts had something similar, and for a similar reason-to damp out unwanted chassis vibrations. Interestingly, those were Unibody cars, not frame cars like our Imperials. More interesting, I don't think the 67/68 Imperial converts needed or got them, even though they were also Unibody cars.


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Paul Wentink
                                        Thank you for the clarification. For some reason I thought the car you have been working on is a Crown Four Door, my mistake. Concerning the weights that has
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 4, 2013
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                                          Thank you for the clarification. For some reason I thought the car you have been working on is a Crown Four Door, my mistake. Concerning the weights that has been my understanding, as well as the comments about the Lincoln and later Imperials.


                                          Paul W.



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: watchfatha <watchfatha@...>
                                          To: Imperial-Club <Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 1:26 pm
                                          Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake- Tuning Weights





                                          Paul.
                                          If you don't have a convertible, don't bother-these are convertible only items.
                                          On the back,outside and under the trunk floor you can see them as elongated blocks/weights with two bolt holes recessed in them. They are at the outer ends of the trunk floor on either side. In the front, they are bolted in place INSIDE the face bar. The only way to see them is to get down on the ground and look UPWARDS at the tip of the bumper end and you'll see something that presents itself in the hollow space on the point of the fender, where it meets the face bar.
                                          FYI, the 4 door Lincoln converts had something similar, and for a similar reason-to damp out unwanted chassis vibrations. Interestingly, those were Unibody cars, not frame cars like our Imperials. More interesting, I don't think the 67/68 Imperial converts needed or got them, even though they were also Unibody cars.

                                          --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I hate to admit this, I'll have to look closer under the car. I can't picture what these look like or where they are placed.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Paul W.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: watchfatha
                                          > To: Imperial-Club Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2013 6:46 pm
                                          > Subject: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > All 4 in place.
                                          > FYI, I actually had the chance to discuss this with a Chrysler engineer AT their then-new facility in Auburn Hills, outside of Detroit. I was there on other business but took a clip board and left my suit jacket in the car and managed to get in to the area marked "Large Car Platforms". I cornered an engineer asking for his consultation on what I described as a "Chassis dynamics" question. The answer re lack of weights is an overall chassis vibration of a much slower kind that feels more like chassis-flex than the type I am experiencing.
                                          > Norm
                                          >
                                          > --- In Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com, "john sadowski" wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I had also mentioned the tuning weights. They are also in the front as well , I believe. I seem to recall someone posting a photo of what they look like a few years ago.
                                          > >
                                          > > John
                                          > >
                                          > > From: therichardsonfamily@
                                          > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 AM
                                          > > To: Imperial-Club@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Norm:
                                          > >
                                          > > After reading all of the very good suggestions, and hearing that you have addressed most of the more obvious - I would really be interested in the brake drum springs, and/or the weights (or whatever those were) that are in the trunk(?) of convertibles.
                                          > >
                                          > > Those are a couple ideas that you would only hear from a place with the experience that this site has.
                                          > >
                                          > > Will be very interested in hearing the answer........
                                          > >
                                          > > Dan Richardson
                                          > > 300L Family Heirloom
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "George McCollam" mailto:mccollamge%40gmail.com>;;
                                          > > To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 7:17:33 PM
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Re: 64 High Speed Shake
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello All
                                          > > Just putting out a thought, .... the below post from Norm mentioned
                                          > > possible drum brake noise .... I seem to remember back the old days around
                                          > > the time the wheel was invented, that all the drums had a 'screen door'
                                          > > like spring wrapped around the drum. I remember the purpose being to cancel
                                          > > harominics generated by the drum. Might this be in some way releated to
                                          > > Norm's hi-frequency noise ??? ....Just thinking that the spring may be
                                          > > missing?
                                          > > I'm not a mechanic, I just play one in my garage.
                                          > > George with the ('55 & '56 Crown Limousines)
                                          > >
                                          > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:56 PM, watchfatha mailto:watchfatha%40yahoo.com>;; wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > **
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Good thoughts, Paul, and much of your line of thinking I am also inclined
                                          > > > to adopt, although I don't agree that there is no productive end to back
                                          > > > and forth emails. After all,not only is that one purpose of this club, but
                                          > > > WE (our many club members) know these cars better than most shops that have
                                          > > > not seen one in 50 years-or never saw one to begin with. At least that has
                                          > > > been my experience here, so I welcome all suggestions-and greatly
                                          > > > appreciate them.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > As to yours of valve recession, I thought of that too, but the car
                                          > > > presents with a smooth idle, no missing/smoke/ping/lope and a very steady
                                          > > > 20 inches of vacuum when tested with a gauge on the back of the manifold,
                                          > > > which I don't believe would be the case if one or more valves had
                                          > > > experienced recession.Torque converter out of balance? Hmmmm, I think I'd
                                          > > > feel that in the gas pedal, the seat of my pants and the driveshaft hump,
                                          > > > no?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This shake is unlike a shimmy, but more like a high frequency vibration. I
                                          > > > like the worn rubber parts idea,although visual inspection reveals upper
                                          > > > and lower control arm bushings that seem to be intact and shaking the
                                          > > > wheels while watching the tie rod ends and idler arm reveal no apparent
                                          > > > looseness. Likewise with ball joints when the lower a-arm is supported on a
                                          > > > jack and a tire iron is inserted under the tire and lifted and dropped.But
                                          > > > who knows? Note: vibration presents on any road surface, with or without
                                          > > > hubcaps on and is the same if the tires are rotated front to back and does
                                          > > > so on roads where none of my other cars ,including a 63 Caddy with the same
                                          > > > tires, does so.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > An out of balance DRUM makes a LOT of sense as it would be a vibration
                                          > > > with a much shorter "arm" (rotational distance) and I think would be a
                                          > > > faster (high frequency) vibration-much like what I am describing. It also
                                          > > > makes a lot of sense that a drum which took a certain weight to balance
                                          > > > when new 50 years ago would, as wear and grinding took metal off, no longer
                                          > > > need that weight in that place any longer and might be "over-balanced" with
                                          > > > weights. There used to be a tire place where they balanced the wheels on
                                          > > > the car, and it was the best balance ever-but they don't do that anymore. I
                                          > > > think I need to find a truck tire place or a speed shop.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > More when I learn it.
                                          > > > Norm
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wentink wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Many front end part problems will cause the car to shake ( I call this
                                          > > > condition shimmy) after hitting a bump in the road, while others will cause
                                          > > > it to shake continuously and/or at different speeds. Non-suspension issues
                                          > > > (tires, wheel covers, out of balance drums, etc) generally will cause a
                                          > > > shake that is specific to certain speeds if not all the time, drive line
                                          > > > alignment issues either manifest on coast or under load. The dragging brake
                                          > > > shoe problem stumped me for a while as the shake developed after driving
                                          > > > for a certain amount of time and not in the rain. I did find it eventually.
                                          > > > We have mentioned tires, wheels, wheel bearings, front suspension, drive
                                          > > > line, brakes, shocks, etc. So far what we have been told about this car is
                                          > > > that everything is new or in perfect condition and it still shakes. There
                                          > > > is something wrong or the car would not shake, other than if it is being
                                          > > > driven on a wash board road. Have you tested the road with another car? I
                                          > > > have experienced a shake that only happened when the road was dry.
                                          > > > Sometimes I find my own problems while others are properly diagnosed by the
                                          > > > shop. Still others are caused by the shop or even, yes folks get ready...ME.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Being e-mail, there is no way to solve this issue here given what has
                                          > > > already been suggested. The FSM has an extensive list in the Trouble
                                          > > > Shooting section, however that list was created with certain assumptions in
                                          > > > mind. One of them is that the car is not 50 years old. I am as curious as
                                          > > > anyone to know what is wrong. The car seemingly needs to go to a GOOD shop
                                          > > > for diagnosis. Obviously something is wrong, however no matter what is
                                          > > > suggested, we are told the parts are perfect, properly adjusted, or new.
                                          > > > This can not be the case for everything or it would be smooth. We have all
                                          > > > had cars that shake and found the reason/reasons why. This is not
                                          > > > impossible. IMHO it may take a professional (not e-mail) to diagnose and
                                          > > > fix it. Has anyone mentioned valve recession or an out of balance or loose
                                          > > > torque converter yet? There are just too many possibilities for us to
                                          > > > continue sending e-mails back and forth repeating the same potential issues
                                          > > > over and over again.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > A 1964 Imperial is a machine that can be fixed no matter how old it is
                                          > > > or how much it has been driven. It is not suppose to shake. My 1980 daily
                                          > > > driver has nearly 500,000 miles on it, yet it drives as smooth as silk even
                                          > > > with its second set of the dreaded Coker tires and ongoing servicing of
                                          > > > issues as they develop over time and use. Parts wear out. My car has had
                                          > > > problems that are easy to find and others not so much, but they have all
                                          > > > been resolved for the time being and there will be more problems to come. I
                                          > > > did get stumped for a couple of years due to the wheel cover issue. I found
                                          > > > that one myself by counting the spokes in the wire wheel cover and finally
                                          > > > noticing the holes where the missing spokes had been. No shop was ever able
                                          > > > to figure that out. Maybe a shop even caused the problem when they were
                                          > > > working on my car if they accidentally switched my wheel cover with someone
                                          > > > else's. Maybe the spokes just fell out. I don't know or care. I was also
                                          > > > stumped for a long time over a seemingly non-existent vacuum leak due to a
                                          > > > cracked carburetor base plate. Shop after shop said there was nothing wrong
                                          > > > other than that my car needed a new engine. It didn't. Who'd have thought?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Good luck and let us know what you find.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Paul W.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > > From: Joseph Strickland
                                          > > > > To: Imperial-Mail-List mailto:imperial-club%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                          > > > > Sent: Fri, Mar 1, 2013 3:41 am
                                          > > > > Subject: [Imperial-Club] 64 High Speed Shake
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > One other possibility that could cause a high speed shake is worn out
                                          > > > front suspension components. These cars are very heavy and the rubber
                                          > > > bushings in the front end do wear out. Have a good front end alignment shop
                                          > > > check for worn out bushings and other related front end steering parts.
                                          > > > When the bushings wear out the parts settle into another position when
                                          > > > bumps are run over on the road. The drive train misalignment due to worn
                                          > > > out motor mounts or drive shaft center bearing can also be causes for this
                                          > > > condition.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Joe
                                          > > > >
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                                          > > ------------------------------------
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                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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