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Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

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  • madame_antoine
    Hi Axel, I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when she was younger, about her
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
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      Hi Axel,

      I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
      was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
      she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
      avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
      own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
      one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
      many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
      them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
      and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
      out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
      were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
      for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
      was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
      then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
      as was mentioned in Zweigs biography...but one could certainly
      say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
      redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
      a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
      and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
      say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
      was not a fashion trendsetter.

      kind regards,
      Patricia

      --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "Axel"
      <Rand103242@...> wrote:
      >
      > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
      of
      > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
      I
      > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
      > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
      >
      > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
      > sense. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
      > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
      also
      > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
      > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for the
      > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-style
      > rustic retreat.
      >
      > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
      Old
      > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
      > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
      spur
      > the French Revolution and her own demise.
      >
      > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
      leader
      > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
      link
      > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
      that
      > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
      >
      > Axel
      >
      > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, jimmy
      > <keltwhip@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ernest,
      > >
      > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps it
      > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
      > question.
      > >
      > > Jimmy O.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
      > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
      > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
      > >
      > >
      > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
      > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
      is:
      > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
      Madame
      > de
      > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
      > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or in
      > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
      > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
      execution
      > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
      > position
      > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did not
      > work
      > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing or
      > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the conclusion
      > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
      shocked
      > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really have
      a
      > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
      > >
      > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
      interior
      > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked the
      > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
      > classical
      > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
      > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
      that
      > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
      > >
      > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
      > >
      >
    • Ernest Riall
      This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial questions, just so you know that I am not ignoring you. First and foremost, I have been
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 5, 2009
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        This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial questions, just so you know that I am not ignoring you. First and foremost,  I have been very grateful to everyone’s input and opinions.  I am going to make you all jealous, but I am sitting in a Paris cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email.  I am actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject.  I am going to visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national library to do some research.  Since my last contact, I have been able to find some notes written by Leonard and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?)  who as you all probably know worked with Marie Antoinette.  In addition I have found many of the books that you all have suggested. In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you have put forth.  Once I reach some findings I will share them with the group. 

        Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks. 


        Ernest




        From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
        To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
        Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

        Hi Axel,

        I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
        was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
        she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
        avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
        own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
        one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
        many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
        them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
        and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
        out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
        were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
        for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
        was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
        then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
        as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
        say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
        redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
        a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
        and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
        say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
        was not a fashion trendsetter.

        kind regards,
        Patricia

        --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
        <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:

        >
        > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
        of
        > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
        I
        > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
        > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
        >
        > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
        > sense. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
        > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
        also
        > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
        > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for the
        > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-style
        > rustic retreat.
        >
        > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
        Old
        > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
        > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
        spur
        > the French Revolution and her own demise.
        >
        > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
        leader
        > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
        link
        > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
        that
        > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
        >
        > Axel
        >
        > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
        > <keltwhip@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ernest,
        > >
        > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps it
        > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
        > question.
        > >
        > > Jimmy O.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
        > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
        > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
        > >
        > >
        > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
        > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
        is:
        > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
        Madame
        > de
        > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
        > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or in
        > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
        > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
        execution
        > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
        > position
        > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did not
        > work
        > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing or
        > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the conclusion
        > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
        shocked
        > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really have
        a
        > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
        > >
        > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
        interior
        > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked the
        > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
        > classical
        > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
        > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
        that
        > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
        > >
        > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
        > >
        >


      • Tara
        Yea, I am jealous. lol Good for you though. :) Have fun, enjoy the research and be safe.  Tara ________________________________ From: Ernest Riall
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Yea, I am jealous. lol Good for you though. :) Have fun, enjoy the research and be safe.
           
          Tara



          From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@...>
          To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 11:53:26 AM
          Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

          This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial questions, just so you know that I am not ignoring you. First and foremost,  I have been very grateful to everyone’s input and opinions.  I am going to make you all jealous, but I am sitting in a Paris cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email.  I am actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject.  I am going to visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national library to do some research.  Since my last contact, I have been able to find some notes written by Leonard and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?)  who as you all probably know worked with Marie Antoinette.  In addition I have found many of the books that you all have suggested. In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you have put forth.  Once I reach some findings I will share them with the group. 

          Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks. 


          Ernest




          From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
          To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
          Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

          Hi Axel,

          I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
          was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
          she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
          avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
          own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
          one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
          many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
          them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
          and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
          out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
          were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
          for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
          was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
          then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
          as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
          say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
          redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
          a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
          and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
          say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
          was not a fashion trendsetter.

          kind regards,
          Patricia

          --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
          <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:

          >
          > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
          of
          > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
          I
          > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
          > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
          >
          > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with
          her fashion
          > sense. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
          > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
          also
          > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
          > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for the
          > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-style
          > rustic retreat.
          >
          > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
          Old
          > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
          > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
          spur
          > the French Revolution and her own demise.
          >
          > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
          leader
          > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
          link
          > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
          that
          > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
          >
          > Axel
          >
          > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
          > <keltwhip@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Ernest,
          > >
          > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps it
          > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
          > question.
          > >
          > > Jimmy O.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
          > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
          com
          > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
          > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
          > >
          > >
          > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
          > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
          is:
          > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
          Madame
          > de
          > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
          > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or in
          > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
          > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
          execution
          > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
          > position
          > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did not
          > work
          > > but secondarily there are no references to her
          actually writing or
          > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the conclusion
          > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
          shocked
          > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really have
          a
          > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
          > >
          > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
          interior
          > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked the
          > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
          > classical
          > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
          > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
          that
          > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
          > >
          > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
          > >
          >



        • madame_antoine
          Hello Ernest, How exciting to be visiting Paris, Versailles and all the other lovely places we read and hear about! I just have to ask; Are you writing a book,
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Ernest,

            How exciting to be visiting Paris, Versailles and all
            the other lovely places we read and hear about! I just
            have to ask; Are you writing a book, or planning on
            writing a book about Marie Antoinette? One of our other
            group members was going to visit Paris during December and
            we hope to hear from her as well. Anyway, have fun and
            gather lots of good information to share with us:)

            kind regards,
            Patricia






            es_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Riall <eriall01@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial
            questions, just so you know that I
            > am not ignoring you. First and foremost, I have been very grateful
            to everyone¢s input and
            > opinions. I am going to make you all jealous, but I am sitting in
            a Paris
            > cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email. I am
            actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject. I am
            going to
            > visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national
            library to do some
            > research. Since my last contact, I have been able to find some
            notes written by Leonard
            > and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?) who as you all probably
            know worked
            > with Marie Antoinette. In addition I have found many of the books
            that you all have suggested.
            > In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you
            have put
            > forth. Once I reach some findings I will share them with the
            group.
            > Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks.
            >
            >
            > Ernest
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
            > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
            > Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion
            leader?
            >
            >
            > Hi Axel,
            >
            > I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
            > was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
            > she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
            > avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
            > own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
            > one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
            > many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
            > them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
            > and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
            > out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
            > were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
            > for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
            > was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
            > then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
            > as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
            > say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
            > redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
            > a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
            > and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
            > say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
            > was not a fashion trendsetter.
            >
            > kind regards,
            > Patricia
            >
            > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
            > <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
            > of
            > > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
            > I
            > > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
            > > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
            > >
            > > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
            > > sense.. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
            > > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
            > also
            > > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
            > > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for
            the
            > > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-
            style
            > > rustic retreat.
            > >
            > > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
            > Old
            > > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
            > > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
            > spur
            > > the French Revolution and her own demise.
            > >
            > > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
            > leader
            > > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
            > link
            > > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
            > that
            > > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
            > >
            > > Axel
            > >
            > > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
            > > <keltwhip@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Ernest,
            > > >
            > > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps
            it
            > > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
            > > question.
            > > >
            > > > Jimmy O.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
            > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
            > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
            > > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
            > > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
            > is:
            > > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
            > Madame
            > > de
            > > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
            > > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or
            in
            > > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
            > > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
            > execution
            > > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
            > > position
            > > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did
            not
            > > work
            > > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing
            or
            > > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the
            conclusion
            > > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
            > shocked
            > > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really
            have
            > a
            > > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
            > > >
            > > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
            > interior
            > > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked
            the
            > > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
            > > classical
            > > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
            > > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
            > that
            > > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
            > > >
            > > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • janet fauble
            Oh dear, Patricia, I am so sorry that I had to postpone my trip to Versailles until spring.  I really wish I were there and I know how disappointed you are in
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 8, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Oh dear, Patricia, I am so sorry that I had to postpone my trip to Versailles until spring.  I really wish I were there and I know how disappointed you are in me.  But circumstances prevented my going, for as your astrology lesson was correct in my sometimes being too optimistic, and this time it came true.  I still plan to make it asap.  Thanks for reminding me.  I am very happy for Ernest Rial though and he must let us know what he finds.  Jan

              --- On Mon, 1/5/09, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
              From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
              Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?
              To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 8:23 PM

              Hello Ernest,

              How exciting to be visiting Paris, Versailles and all
              the other lovely places we read and hear about! I just
              have to ask; Are you writing a book, or planning on
              writing a book about Marie Antoinette? One of our other
              group members was going to visit Paris during December and
              we hope to hear from her as well. Anyway, have fun and
              gather lots of good information to share with us:)

              kind regards,
              Patricia

              es_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, Ernest Riall <eriall01@.. .>
              wrote:
              >
              > This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial
              questions, just so you know that I
              > am not ignoring you. First and foremost, I have been very grateful
              to everyone¢s input and
              > opinions. I am going to make you all jealous, but I am sitting in
              a Paris
              > cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email. I am
              actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject. I am
              going to
              > visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national
              library to do some
              > research. Since my last contact, I have been able to find some
              notes written by Leonard
              > and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?) who as you all probably
              know worked
              > with Marie Antoinette. In addition I have found many of the books
              that you all have suggested.
              > In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you
              have put
              > forth. Once I reach some findings I will share them with the
              group.
              > Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks.
              >
              >
              > Ernest
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ ...>
              > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
              > Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion
              leader?
              >
              >
              > Hi Axel,
              >
              > I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
              > was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
              > she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
              > avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
              > own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
              > one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
              > many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
              > them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
              > and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
              > out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
              > were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
              > for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
              > was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
              > then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
              > as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
              > say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
              > redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
              > a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
              > and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
              > say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
              > was not a fashion trendsetter.
              >
              > kind regards,
              > Patricia
              >
              > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
              > <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
              > of
              > > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
              > I
              > > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
              > > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
              > >
              > > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
              > > sense.. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
              > > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
              > also
              > > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
              > > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for
              the
              > > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-
              style
              > > rustic retreat.
              > >
              > > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
              > Old
              > > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
              > > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
              > spur
              > > the French Revolution and her own demise.
              > >
              > > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
              > leader
              > > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
              > link
              > > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
              > that
              > > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
              > >
              > > Axel
              > >
              > > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
              > > <keltwhip@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Ernest,
              > > >
              > > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps
              it
              > > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
              > > question.
              > > >
              > > > Jimmy O.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
              > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
              > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
              > > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
              > > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
              > is:
              > > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
              > Madame
              > > de
              > > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
              > > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or
              in
              > > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
              > > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
              > execution
              > > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
              > > position
              > > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did
              not
              > > work
              > > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing
              or
              > > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the
              conclusion
              > > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
              > shocked
              > > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really
              have
              > a
              > > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
              > > >
              > > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
              > interior
              > > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked
              the
              > > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
              > > classical
              > > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
              > > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
              > that
              > > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
              > > >
              > > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
              > > >
              > >
              >


            • Ernest Riall
              No book at this time and my area of research is in furniture history in particular late 18th century french and english (neo classical furniture) I am
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                No book at this time and my area of research is in furniture history in particular late 18th century french and english (neo classical furniture) I am conducting extensive research for a phd on two particular pieces - one that was done for Marie Antoinette and the other for a lord in england.  the problem is that the situation in england is very straight forward, there are tons of letters going back and forth between the furniture maker (chippendale) and architect (adam) but the only thing I have from Marie Antoinette is a delivery notice in the logs of the garde de meuble so i am having to extract what ever i can from other situations to get an idea as to how involved she was with its design.  it is actually about a very small portion of the paper, however the research is fascinating.  my time in paris will be spent taking pictures of some of her furniture and to get some specific information (types of veneers, thickness of veneers, constructional methods, etc.)  When i get back, i will share some pictures with everyone.
                 
                ernest.


                From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
                To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 3:23:37 AM
                Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

                Hello Ernest,

                How exciting to be visiting Paris, Versailles and all
                the other lovely places we read and hear about! I just
                have to ask; Are you writing a book, or planning on
                writing a book about Marie Antoinette? One of our other
                group members was going to visit Paris during December and
                we hope to hear from her as well. Anyway, have fun and
                gather lots of good information to share with us:)

                kind regards,
                Patricia

                es_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, Ernest Riall <eriall01@.. .>
                wrote:

                >
                > This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial
                questions, just so you know that I
                > am not ignoring you. First and foremost, I have been very grateful
                to everyone¢s input and
                > opinions. I am going to make you
                all jealous, but I am sitting in
                a Paris
                > cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email. I am
                actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject. I am
                going to
                > visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national
                library to do some
                > research. Since my last contact, I have been able to find some
                notes written by Leonard
                > and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?) who as you all probably
                know worked
                > with Marie Antoinette. In addition I have found many of the books
                that you all have suggested.
                > In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you
                have put
                > forth. Once I reach some findings I will share them with the
                group.
                > Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks..
                >
                >
                > Ernest
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From:
                madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ ...>
                > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
                > Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion
                leader?
                >
                >
                > Hi Axel,
                >
                > I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
                > was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
                > she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
                > avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
                > own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
                > one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
                > many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
                > them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
                > and was
                interested in all the new ideas that were coming
                > out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
                > were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
                > for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
                > was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
                > then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
                > as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
                > say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
                > redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
                > a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
                > and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
                > say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
                > was not a fashion trendsetter.
                >
                > kind regards,
                > Patricia
                >
                > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
                > <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
                > of
                > > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
                > I
                > > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
                > > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
                > >
                > > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
                > > sense.. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
                > > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
                > also
                > > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
                > > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for
                the
                > > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-
                style
                > > rustic retreat.
                > >
                > > Her style and taste captured and
                captivated the last years of the
                > Old
                > > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
                > > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
                > spur
                > > the French Revolution and her own demise.
                > >
                > > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
                > leader
                > > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
                > link
                > > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
                > that
                > > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
                > >
                > > Axel
                > >
                > > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
                > > <keltwhip@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Ernest,
                > > >
                > > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps
                it
                > > is with Bertin you should
                begin searching for an answer to your
                > > question.
                > > >
                > > > Jimmy O.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
                > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
                > > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
                > > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
                > is:
                > > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
                > Madame
                > > de
                > > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
                > > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or
                in
                > > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
                > > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
                > execution
                > > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
                > > position
                > > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did
                not
                > > work
                > > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing
                or
                > > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the
                conclusion
                > > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
                > shocked
                > > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really
                have
                > a
                > > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
                > > >
                > > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
                > interior
                > > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked
                the
                > > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
                > > classical
                > > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
                > > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
                > that
                > > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
                > > >
                > > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
                > > >
                > >
                >


              • janet fauble
                Hello Earnest,   I had wanted to be in France for the Holiday occasion, but circumstances beyond my control prevented me from seeing the new year dawn in
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Earnest,
                   
                  I had wanted to be in France for the Holiday occasion, but circumstances beyond my control prevented me from seeing the new year dawn in Paris.  I had tried but had to back out at the last moment, as Trafalgar was most helpful to me, and convinced me that spring would be a better time.  I wish you good luck in your "meuble" search.  My best, Jan

                  --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ernest Riall <eriall01@...> wrote:
                  From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@...>
                  Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?
                  To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 10:26 AM

                  No book at this time and my area of research is in furniture history in particular late 18th century french and english (neo classical furniture) I am conducting extensive research for a phd on two particular pieces - one that was done for Marie Antoinette and the other for a lord in england.  the problem is that the situation in england is very straight forward, there are tons of letters going back and forth between the furniture maker (chippendale) and architect (adam) but the only thing I have from Marie Antoinette is a delivery notice in the logs of the garde de meuble so i am having to extract what ever i can from other situations to get an idea as to how involved she was with its design.  it is actually about a very small portion of the paper, however the research is fascinating.  my time in paris will be spent taking pictures of some of her furniture and to get some specific information (types of veneers, thickness of veneers, constructional methods, etc.)  When i get back, i will share some pictures with everyone.
                   
                  ernest.


                  From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                  To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 3:23:37 AM
                  Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion leader?

                  Hello Ernest,

                  How exciting to be visiting Paris, Versailles and all
                  the other lovely places we read and hear about! I just
                  have to ask; Are you writing a book, or planning on
                  writing a book about Marie Antoinette? One of our other
                  group members was going to visit Paris during December and
                  we hope to hear from her as well. Anyway, have fun and
                  gather lots of good information to share with us:)

                  kind regards,
                  Patricia

                  es_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, Ernest Riall <eriall01@.. .>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > This is a general note to everyone who has responded to my initial
                  questions, just so you know that I
                  > am not ignoring you. First and foremost, I have been very grateful
                  to everyone¢s input and
                  > opinions. I am going to make you all jealous, but I am sitting in
                  a Paris
                  > cafe, enjoying a double expresso while writing this email. I am
                  actually here, in part, to do research on our favorite subject. I am
                  going to
                  > visit Versailles later in the week and then go to the national
                  library to do some
                  > research. Since my last contact, I have been able to find some
                  notes written by Leonard
                  > and Campan, several books on Brenten (sp?) who as you all probably
                  know worked
                  > with Marie Antoinette. In addition I have found many of the books
                  that you all have suggested.
                  > In other words I am busy researching some of the ideas that you
                  have put
                  > forth. Once I reach some findings I will share them with the
                  group.
                  > Again, thanks and I will get back to you in a few weeks..
                  >
                  >
                  > Ernest
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ ...>
                  > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:07:32 PM
                  > Subject: Re: Designs by Marie Antoinette: Was Queen a fashion
                  leader?
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Axel,
                  >
                  > I believe this as well, that most definitely Antoinette
                  > was a trendsetter and she did care more, especially when
                  > she was younger, about her appearance. She was very
                  > avant garde in everything. Did she come up with all her
                  > own ideas, no...but she certainly was ready to be the
                  > one to start a new trend. Rose Bertin and Leonard had
                  > many ideas and if Antoinette listened to them and liked
                  > them, she tried them. She very much believed in progressiveness
                  > and was interested in all the new ideas that were coming
                  > out at that time. Regarding the Trianon, I believe those
                  > were her own ideas for the interior design and the ideas
                  > for the gardens were definitely in the style that Rousseau
                  > was encouraging and she gave Minque the ideas which he
                  > then developed. Admittedly, some of the ideas were over the top,
                  > as was mentioned in Zweigs biography... but one could certainly
                  > say she gave a few of the french people jobs while they were
                  > redecorating, landscaping and building. Admittedly,it cost
                  > a fortune to do all this and it was extravagant for the times
                  > and especially when so many were starving, but no one can
                  > say Marie Antoinette did not have good taste nor that she
                  > was not a fashion trendsetter.
                  >
                  > kind regards,
                  > Patricia
                  >
                  > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "Axel"
                  > <Rand103242@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I believe Marie Antoinette was the fashion leader and trendsetter
                  > of
                  > > her time, that she was conscious of it and cared about that role.
                  > I
                  > > think I've even read that Marie Antoinette cared more about being
                  > > Queen of Fashion than Queen of France.
                  > >
                  > > The Queen clearly had advisors who helped her with her fashion
                  > > sense.. Rose Bertin her milliner and dressmaker was chief among
                  > > these. She was even called the Minister of Fashion. There was
                  > also
                  > > Leonard, the Queen's hair dresser, and Richard Minque too who
                  > > designed the hameau, English gardens, grounds and buildings for
                  the
                  > > Queen's massive remoddling of Petit Trianon into her Austrian-
                  style
                  > > rustic retreat.
                  > >
                  > > Her style and taste captured and captivated the last years of the
                  > Old
                  > > Regime from 1775 to 1789. In doing so, while much copied and
                  > > admired, she also spauned enormous controversy that did much to
                  > spur
                  > > the French Revolution and her own demise.
                  > >
                  > > Caroline Weber authored a book on Marie Antoinette as fashion
                  > leader
                  > > that is much recommended. My next post will include an html or
                  > link
                  > > to a lecture Ms. Weber gave on her book and MA as fashion leader
                  > that
                  > > you can listen to and perhaps reply to here.
                  > >
                  > > Axel
                  > >
                  > > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, jimmy
                  > > <keltwhip@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Ernest,
                  > > >
                  > > > Since she worked so closely with designer Rose Bertin, perhaps
                  it
                  > > is with Bertin you should begin searching for an answer to your
                  > > question.
                  > > >
                  > > > Jimmy O.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > > From: Ernest Riall <eriall01@>
                  > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:51:52 PM
                  > > > Subject: designs by marie antoinette
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I have an interesting problem I am dealing with. I am trying to
                  > > > answer a question about Marie Antoinette. The general question
                  > is:
                  > > > was Marie Antoinette a real fashion leader like Louis XIV or
                  > Madame
                  > > de
                  > > > Pompadour or did she just make things up as she went along?
                  > > > Obviously, if she did something (e.g. piled her hair up high or
                  in
                  > > > shapes) others followed, but did she really purposely lead the
                  > > > fashion. I have read what Marie Antoinnette wore to the
                  > execution
                  > > > and I am not convienced that she was trying to strengthen her
                  > > position
                  > > > politcally through fashion (primarily by the fact that it did
                  not
                  > > work
                  > > > but secondarily there are no references to her actually writing
                  or
                  > > > stating that she was doing that) So, I am coming to the
                  conclusion
                  > > > that she just happened to get some outrageous ideas and they
                  > shocked
                  > > > and generated a lot of followers but that she did not really
                  have
                  > a
                  > > > design philosophy that she was trying to develope and promote.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am particularly interested in her taste in furniture and
                  > interior
                  > > > design. She frequently spoke (or so I am told) that she liked
                  the
                  > > > 'modern taste' (which I believe she was speaking of the neo-
                  > > classical
                  > > > designs that were becoming popular in France and England at that
                  > > > time.) but I have not found anything that says that she liked
                  > that
                  > > > design approach and wanted to promote it to others.
                  > > >
                  > > > does anyone have any thoughts or leads on this topic?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >



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